Raksha the Demon Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Jaime's an interesting character, but not a particularly honorable one; though he's marginally more decent than his sister. Does anyone know if GRRM always intended to reveal Aerys' plan to ignite blow up parts of the City, so as to explain/possibly redeem Jaime's Kingslaying, or did he decide to do so after fans became fond of Jaime? Isn't it also true that by killing Aerys and stopping the big blowup, Jaime was also saving himself? I don't think that Jaime is going to survive the series. Hopefully he'll kill Cersei before he dies himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I've said it several times before; Jamie is already a hero who saved hundreds of thousands of lives. By killing the Mad King before he burned the city to the ground, Jamie is a hero.His one awful crime, pushing a kid out of a window, is when we first meet him. First impressions are hard to break. But taken in context, Jamie's sin had a reason, however twisted, to protect his family.As for his ultimate fate? I've got a terrible feeling that he is next on the chopping block. I hope I am wrong. I'd love to see him in charge of defending Westeros from a Dany who has fully succumbed to the Targaryen madness.He may have done the right thing in killing Aerys, but not the honorable thing, and it is not ME who says he's making up for breaking his oath as a Kingsguard, it is Jaime himself. He says repeatedly that the oath he made to Catelyn is one oath he will keep, hence the name given to Brienne's sword, referring to Jaime's oath not to take up arms against the Tullys and bring Sansa home. And as an aside, GRRM often presents situations where the honorable thing and the right thing diverge, and characters often pay dearly for doing the honorable thing.But I want him to die a horrible death for what he did to Bran, with the incest thing running a distant second. Would love to see him reunite with Bran and Summer where the memory of what happened rushes back to Bran and he wargs into Summer to fully enjoy eviscerating Jaime and gorging on his bowels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Betha Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I believe you're talking about Maedhros ;)Oh no! I think you just helped me discover I have a thing for guys who lose their hands. *facepalm*I find it strange that people think Jaime is a bad guy for being an oath breaker. That really was his greatest act. Throwing Bran from the window was bad, very bad, but most everything else was war. Not that the excuses it, but look at the world they live in. With Edmure, he was threatening something that he did not want to do, and very well may not have done, but the threat did what he needed. Threatening something is not the same as doing it, and not as bad.Also, you have to look at things considering the POV. Of course, this doesn't help with Bran because Jaime and Cersei basically confirm the version, so it is unlikely to have been an accident.I hope Jaime is around straight to the end of the books.I very much agree with this post, and I have to say Jaime is one of my favourite characters. I think my heart would break if he died now that he is in such an intriguing part of his life and his personal development. I desperately want him to become known as Goldenhand instead of Kingslayer, that name has been haunting him for far too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourniquet Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Bodyguard of Bran Stark.It's so crazy it's almost feasible.This would be amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I can't stand him, the sooner Martin kills Jaime off the better.I agree. Can't stand him as a character and am not sure how much he contributes to the overall story. I have found that his chapters, among others, do not advance the overall story. Every time I have seen one of his POVs I thought (and will think) "I hope he dies here." The longer he survives, the more I am convinced he is the "valonqar". If he isn't, I am not sure of his larger purpose.And I have friends who think that GRRM added the "Aerys was going to burn down king's landing" after he realized how popular Jaime had become, I don't think that personally, but I cannot rule it out as a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 And I have friends who think that GRRM added the "Aerys was going to burn down king's landing" after he realized how popular Jaime had become, I don't think that personally, but I cannot rule it out as a possibility.That seems highly unlikely. I think it's the other way around, people started liking Jaime after they learned of Aerys' plan to burn KG, not the other way round. For one thing, I was under the impression that most people thoroughly hated Jaime until Storm came out. Besides, GRRM doesn't seem to cater to fans' wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Bolton's Onesie Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Oh no! I think you just helped me discover I have a thing for guys who lose their hands. *facepalm*I very much agree with this post, and I have to say Jaime is one of my favourite characters. I think my heart would break if he died now that he is in such an intriguing part of his life and his personal development. I desperately want him to become known as Goldenhand instead of Kingslayer, that name has been haunting him for far too long.How about Goldfinger? ^_^The bards could sing of his magic touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Well, he is trying to act honorably after breaking his oath as a Kingsguardsman by slaying the king. About the worst way you can break that oath. That is what I meant by penance, he acknowledges his actions were not honorable and, in sending Brienne to find Sansa and bring her North and do everything to end the siege of Riverrun peacefully, is trying to keep his word to Catelyn and thus restore his honor.We'll have to agree to disagree then. Jaime killing the Mad King was honorable. On Aerys' orders, his pyromancers had wildfire set up all over under the city and if Jaime had not killed him and Rossart, all of Kings Landing would have been destroyed and the loss of life would have been astounding. It was break his oath and save thousands of lives, or not. Jaime chose the honorable path and in my opinion, the only part he regrets about the whole thing is that no one knows the truth. I do not believe Jaime believes his actions were dishonorable. Then end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-42- Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Killing a person is generally less volatile than attempting to hold them hostage. Of the options presented to Jaime at the time killing the king was the safest. We even know Jaime's motivations because we were given his POV. Why don't we settle for the tried and true 'pitched kid out of window' or the 'banged his sister' arguments for condemning Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 We'll have to agree to disagree then. Jaime killing the Mad King was honorable. On Aerys' orders, his pyromancers had wildfire set up all over under the city and if Jaime had not killed him and Rossart, all of Kings Landing would have been destroyed and the loss of life would have been astounding. It was break his oath and save thousands of lives, or not. Jaime chose the honorable path and in my opinion, the only part he regrets about the whole thing is that no one knows the truth. I do not believe Jaime believes his actions were dishonorable. Then end.As I said above, killing Aerys was the right thing, but not the honorable thing. And Jaime himself believes this, hence his actions to uphold his oath to Catelyn Stark. He's trying to redeem himself for breaking his oath as a Kingsguard. He was sworn to protect the king, he killed him (rightfully) but in doing so broke his oath and dishonored himself. This is Jaime's main motivation in the story, so what is so hard to understand about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 People keep saying he killed the king to save the city.This is simply factually untrue. He killed Aerys *AFTER* he saved the city. He saved the city when he killed Rossart and pyromancers. After that there was no chance of the city blowing up. Then he killed Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pistus Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 As I said above, killing Aerys was the right thing, but not the honorable thing. And Jaime himself believes this, hence his actions to uphold his oath to Catelyn Stark. He's trying to redeem himself for breaking his oath as a Kingsguard. He was sworn to protect the king, he killed him (rightfully) but in doing so broke his oath and dishonored himself. This is Jaime's main motivation in the story, so what is so hard to understand about this?How can the right thing be dishonorable? I think this is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 As I said above, killing Aerys was the right thing, but not the honorable thing. And Jaime himself believes this, hence his actions to uphold his oath to Catelyn Stark. He's trying to redeem himself for breaking his oath as a Kingsguard. He was sworn to protect the king, he killed him (rightfully) but in doing so broke his oath and dishonored himself. This is Jaime's main motivation in the story, so what is so hard to understand about this?I think that exactly whether Jaime believes his actions were honorable or not is up to how the reader interprets it. I believe Jaime is motivated by restoring his honor in other peoples eyes, because in his own eyes, that action was right AND honorable. I already said we'll have to agree to disagree. What is so hard to understand about that?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 People keep saying he killed the king to save the city.This is simply factually untrue. He killed Aerys *AFTER* he saved the city. He saved the city when he killed Rossart and pyromancers. After that there was no chance of the city blowing up. Then he killed Aerys.I think that had Aerys been allowed to live, it would not have been impossible for him to reissue the order last minute and destroy Kings Landing anyway. Just a thought... Who knows. I'm not arguing that Jaime is an honorable man. He is not. His actions with Bran and his sister, and a dozen other things prove that he is not. But I believe that killing Aerys, regardless of the reason, was honorable because the man was a murderous lunatic. The whole irony of Jaimes character is that he was dishonored by the only honorable action he ever commited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pistus Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 People keep saying he killed the king to save the city.This is simply factually untrue. He killed Aerys *AFTER* he saved the city. He saved the city when he killed Rossart and pyromancers. After that there was no chance of the city blowing up. Then he killed Aerys.No. When I came on Rossart (...) I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others.This is just common sense. As long as the Mad King is alive, with servants and soldiers all around eager to obey him, the city cannot be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 No. This is just common sense. As long as the Mad King is alive, with servants and soldiers all around eager to obey him, the city cannot be safe. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podrick + Arya = Win Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I think its ironic that he saved the city only for it to be left to the mercy of the Lannister army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyr Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 I would point you to the passage when Jaime is staring at his page in the White book and agonizing over what he can put down on it. This is he, himself, agonizing over what to write not me, and he asks himself something along the lines of "if I don't write lies, what else can I put but the truth?" He's obviously not jumping at the chance to write "killed king Aerys..." (the truth) even though he's had many opportunities to do so. If Jaime thought that what he did was BOTH right AND honorable, why would have even the slightest hesitation?And if you cannot envision scenarios where the honorable thing and the right thing are contradictory, then I must ask you, what books are you reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitscralt Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Rossart was Hand and readily available. Jaime did not have time to hunt down the other pyromancers. Aerys had to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Betha Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 How about Goldfinger? ^_^The bards could sing of his magic touch.Wouldn't that be a better title for a certain ex- master of coin? ;)Killing a person is generally less volatile than attempting to hold them hostage. Of the options presented to Jaime at the time killing the king was the safest. We even know Jaime's motivations because we were given his POV. Why don't we settle for the tried and true 'pitched kid out of window' or the 'banged his sister' arguments for condemning Jaime.Good point. Although I must say I wonder why people consider him having sex with Cersei such a crime... I mean, yes, it's disgusting (and raises the risk of disabled kids - Joffrey, anyone? :P) but they are both adult and consenting. I find it far less criminal and evil than for example the rapes we see all over the place in ASoIaF.If you want Jaime's crimes, what he did to Bran is something even the most fervent Jaime-fan will have hard time belittling.I think its ironic that he saved the city only for it to be left to the mercy of the Lannister army.Never thought of that, but it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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