Jaime Lannister's fate

[Crow's Eye]

And I have friends who think that GRRM added the "Aerys was going to burn down king's landing" after he realized how popular Jaime had become, I don't think that personally, but I cannot rule it out as a possibility.

I do not think that is correct. Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in Qarth include one of Aerys saying "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes." If I recall correctly, there are also references in the Tyrion chapters to stores of wildfire being found around the city from time to time. All of these are from ACOK.

So clearly the idea of Aerys wanting to burn down the city was on GRRM's mind when he was writing ACOK circa 1998. Jamie's knowledge of that plot (revealed from his POV in ASOS while in the bath with Brienne, IIRC) was something George added no later than roughly 1999-ish.

No offense to new readers intended, but I was around these forums (two message boards ago) around that time. Let me tell you, there weren't that many fans of Jaime Lannister before we got his POV in ASOS. In fact, it wasn't until people had his POV that anyone really felt anything other than disgust for the man. Until then our entire knowledge of Jaime Lannister was that he was a kingslaying, child-murdering, arrogant oath-breaking adulterer whose actions almost single-handedly plunged the realm into civil war and caused the death of tens of thousands. So no, there wasn't so much "fan love" for Jaime that GRRM felt the need to make him more sympathetic.

Besides, the internet presence of ASOIAF in the pre-ASOS days was a microscopic fraction of what it is today, so much so that GRRM had time to write books AND persoanlly answer all of our silly emails about what color a certain characters eyes were, etc.

[Wik]

SO many people post super positive and very negative about Jaime. He is obviously a polarizing character. Here are the FACTS: he was sworn into the KG with an oath that said something about protecting his king with HIS LIFE. He killed that King and thus broke his oath. The king he served was crazy though so at what point is he absolved of that oath, if at all?

He pushed Bran out the window. Jaime clearly expected the boy to die. That is awful. BUT he is protecting his family who would have been killed if he didn't do that.

The reality is, Jaime is a grey character. A guy who has been in good spots and bad. He isn't a good guy. He isn't evil. He is out for himself, just like LF and so many others. He has tried to be forthright but life has a funny way of throwing a change up at you when you least expect it. All you can do is react and move on.

All that being said, if your someone who pulls for Dany, Jon, Jaime, Tyrion etc etc your going to be in trouble. Dany doesn't know much about Westeros but she knows about events, people etc from Viserys, Jorah and later, Selmly. Jaime has a bad rep from 2 of those 3 (Viserys and Selmly) and Jorah isn't going to "toss him a bone" either. Dany wants to get her throne back and she WILL remember the horrible things many of the rebels did. Maybe, through a connection she lets Jon, Bran etc etc continue on as normal. Same with the Tully's. But there is no way she is going to let Jaime, the man who murdered her father, for better or worse, go unscathed (should they end up meeting). I would go as far as to say that if ANY Lannister has offended the Targs the most, it would be Tywin and Jaime and you can't punish the dead, so that only leaves one....

[Ser Pistus]

he was sworn into the KG with an oath that said something about protecting his king with HIS LIFE. He killed that King and thus broke his oath. The king he served was crazy though so at what point is he absolved of that oath, if at all?

A mad tyrant is not a legitimate king. This is the ethical foundation of the rebellion of Robert and Ned. On Earth, this notion is as old as Magna Charta, and probably older.

The reality is, Jaime is a grey character. A guy who has been in good spots and bad. He isn't a good guy. He isn't evil.

I disagree here. Jaime was a typical bad guy in the last 15 years: he lived completely without conscience and ethics. But he changed. After he met Brienne and lost his sword hand, he found the knight in himself. Since then he tries to be good (but as long as he follows Cersei's orders, it is very hard to do).

[evanesco75]

Well, he doesn't look to be following Cersei's orders any longer, so there's that.

I for one would be disappointed at his death, primarily because he is interesting. Of all the characters, he strikes me the most real and identifiable because he's conscious of his flaws and sins, and seems to be trying to make up for it: a very universal, human condition. I'm not too comfortable judging or categorizing characters; suffice it to say, honour can't exist without context, and a blind adherence to a vow even in the most dire circumstances strikes me as less than truly honourable.

[Crow's Eye]

I disagree here. Jaime was a typical bad guy in the last 15 years: he lived completely without conscience and ethics. But he changed. After he met Brienne and lost his sword hand, he found the knight in himself. Since then he tries to be good (but as long as he follows Cersei's orders, it is very hard to do).

I think Jaime lived most of his young life wanting to be a great, honorable knight in the mold of Barristan the Bold, Ser Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and the Blackfish. I think he even had that vision of himself the moment he killed Aerys - he sacrificed his own honor for the good of the realm, which itself is about as honorable as it gets.

But I think that his entire outlook on life was marred by the process by which he was taken into the Kingsguard and essentially used as a pawn against his father. Then when he commits what he feels is his most honorable act in defense of the realm, the entire kingdom names him Kingslayer and looks upon him with scorn as an evil oathbreaker. So at that point I think he just says "screw it" and gives them the man they think he is. I think a lot of his arrogance, swagger and nastiness is the shield he used to prevent other peoples' opinions from hurting him.

But losing his sword hand, his journey with Brienne and the "loss" of Cersei seemed to really jar him, and now he does really appear to want to live his life "honorably," whether or not people ever change their opinion of him.

I don't think any amount of "good acts" will ever erase the "bad acts." But I think he can definitely find some measure of redemption, even if it is only in his eyes. Personally I see him as one of the more tragic characters in the series.

My prediction for Jaime: In addition to everything else they have on her, the Faith ultimately try Cersei on the charge that Tommen and Myrcella are bastards born of incest. Cersei's champion (who will not be Jaime) loses, and she is executed. Jaime is stripped of his white cloak and offered the choice of death or the Wall, and he takes the black, maybe taking Tommen with him as his squire or something. There he dies honorably defending the realm from the Others.

[Sega AM2]

I think Jaime lived most of his young life wanting to be a great, honorable knight in the mold of Barristan the Bold, Ser Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and the Blackfish. I think he even had that vision of himself the moment he killed Aerys - he sacrificed his own honor for the good of the realm, which itself is about as honorable as it gets.

He didn't kill Aerys for the good of the realm at all. He kills Aerys for personal revenge and personal gain. He hated that Aerys only took him as a Kingsguard to piss off Tywin. Aerys was as much a threat as Elia Martell once the head pyromancer had been killed. He kills Aerys so he can sit on the Iron Throne and claim it for the Lannisters. But Ned is too quick and takes the throne for Robert, as Robert started the rebellion and has Targ blood, a better claim than any Lannister.

Tywin doesn't object to Robert taking the throne because he knows that Cersei will marry Robert. And Jaime knows that Cersei will fool Robert into pardoning him for killing Aerys (Robert practically leaps for joy at the sight of the dead Targ women and children and laughs at the Mad King's corpse). And Jaime knows that he'll be able to sleep with Cersei again and likely put their offspring on the Iron Throne. He knew all of this from the moment that Aerys opened the doors for Tywin. He sees an opening to take some power for the Lannisters and he goes for it.

And look what happens, Jaime immediately begins sleeping his sister, again, who is now with King Robert, and gets her pregnant with a son who he conspires to get crowned. So basically Jaime killed Aerys knowing fully well that a Lannister like Tywin would take the throne or that Cersei would marry Robert. He kills off Aerys and almost immediately begins plotting how to have his own bastard children sit on the Iron Throne. It's nothing more than a power play and Cersei even plays Robert into pardoning Jaime for killing the Mad King so that she and Jaime can resume their affair.

Jaime is plotting the entire time when he kills Aerys to put the Lannisters into power and nothing more. Jaime is literally the only person in the realm who thinks that his killing of Aerys was justified. Of course in Jaime's POV chapters he sees himself as honorable for killing Aerys. The dude has a giant ego. But Ned sees right through it instantly and tells Robert repeatedly that Jaime is a traitor. Brynden Tully calls out Jaime for being nothing more than an oathbreaker and Jaime has no retorts.

And did Jaime really care about wildfire at all? Because he certainly doesn't mind that thousands of jars are left littered throughout the city after King's Landing is sacked. Jaime kills off Aerys and the pyromancers because he hates them and has a strong personal grudge because he saw them burn people alive. But he couldn't care less when he tosses Bran from the tower. He doesn't care about the common people being in danger of wildfire bursting into flame accidentally as he never warns anyone about the substance once he's gotten his own personal revenge over with and moved on to placing his bastard children on the Iron Throne.

[Inglorious Pencil]

Jaime is plotting the entire time when he kills Aerys to put the Lannisters into power and nothing more. Jaime is literally the only person in the realm who thinks that his killing of Aerys was justified. Of course in Jaime's POV chapters he sees himself as honorable for killing Aerys. The dude has a giant ego. But Ned sees right through it instantly and tells Robert repeatedly that Jaime is a traitor. Brynden Tully calls out Jaime for being nothing more than an oathbreaker and Jaime has no retorts.

I don't know, I like Ned and I understand his opinion of Jaime from his point of view. But Jaime was the one WHO HAD BEEN THERE AND SEEN EVERYTHING. I get that there is an element of unreliability in Martin's narrators but to assume that Ned has a better assessment of the facts in Jaime's life than Jaime himself is a bit disingenuous. And yes, he broke his oath of protecting the king - he broke it in every way. And I can see why the characters in the books hold it against him, because oaths and honor and all that jazz are big deal to their culture. But I still fail to see how as readers we are supposed to embrace that same perspective? I think Jaime's arc, in this regard, highlights how nonsensical the unquestioning adherence to vows and duty can be. History taught us where "I was just following orders" can lead. Yet the rest of the old school KG are held as a paragon of honor by Westeros logic - but I can't see the honor in a reasoning like Jon Darry's here:

whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Jaime is NOT a good guy. And he has enough issues that, if therapists existed in Westeros, he'd probably be able to spend all the gold in Casterly Rock on them (granted, this is true for his siblings as well). He isn't a monster either, though. His storyline questions some of the in-story cultural values, and at the same time it is challenging to us because the guy is such a mishmash of sympathetic and unsympathetic traits. That is what makes him a compelling character in my opinion.

[Lord Damian]

Jaime feels sympathy for the Starks, as does Tyrione, he will do something in the end to redeem the wrong done upon them by his family as a dying act.

[Easy]

I think Jaime lived most of his young life wanting to be a great, honorable knight in the mold of Barristan the Bold, Ser Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and the Blackfish. I think he even had that vision of himself the moment he killed Aerys - he sacrificed his own honor for the good of the realm, which itself is about as honorable as it gets.

But I think that his entire outlook on life was marred by the process by which he was taken into the Kingsguard and essentially used as a pawn against his father. Then when he commits what he feels is his most honorable act in defense of the realm, the entire kingdom names him Kingslayer and looks upon him with scorn as an evil oathbreaker. So at that point I think he just says "screw it" and gives them the man they think he is. I think a lot of his arrogance, swagger and nastiness is the shield he used to prevent other peoples' opinions from hurting him.

But losing his sword hand, his journey with Brienne and the "loss" of Cersei seemed to really jar him, and now he does really appear to want to live his life "honorably," whether or not people ever change their opinion of him.

Wholeheartedly agree with this.

I believe in rehabilitation .

[Faint]

Jaime feels sympathy for the Starks, as does Tyrione, he will do something in the end to redeem the wrong done upon them by his family as a dying act.

I don't understand this sentiment. He is allies with the Freys and the Boltons. He has thrown the Tully's off their ancestral land. He's complicit in passing off an innocent Jeyne Poole as Arya Stark and consigning her to a life of torture, rape, and death, along with giving the Stark ancestral home to the Boltons. Wherein all this is the actions of a man who wants to redeem the wrongs done upon the Starks by him and his family? Because he gave Brienne a sword that belongs to the Starks anyway and a piece of paper and sent her off on her way, all is good now? The very idea is preposterous.

And Tyrion and Jaime do not feel as much sympathy for the Starks as is made out. Look for one instance where Sansa Stark even comes up in Jaime's mind during the entirety of AFfC. Or one instance where he even considers what he did to Bran. He spends the majority of the time pondering the injustice of him losing his hand. And those few moments when he is not feeling sorry for himself over his hand, he is feeling sorry for himself over Cersei fucking Osmund Kettleblack.

Enough with this redemption angle. Jaime has done near nothing to merit so much faith in him. Perhaps now he might actually do something towards lessening his sins where the Starks are concerned but, on balance of what has been seen so far, I rather doubt it.

[Lord Damian]

He has moments in the story that makes me think he will do something other than evil in the end. He was carrying out orders for a dead father. This is a stretch, I admit. but he is not completely sold out to the cold evil chain of thought as his father was. He was devoted to Cersie, he will prob find out at somepoint that she was using him and as soon as he was not available she brought another lannister to her bed. Betrayal has a way of making people want to redeem themselves in some small way.

[Faint]

I'm actually hoping against my own reasoning on the issue that Jaime will end up doing something completely unexpected like taking on the mission to find and protect Sansa or participating in the destruction of the Freys. Having said that, I don't think he's there yet. He still seems more obsessed with his missing hand and who his sister is sleeping with than any of the havoc he's caused on others. But who knows, maybe even this will change.

[bhlade]

Based on the redemption arc he seems to be going on, I believe he will well-intentionedly attempt to bring about a Stark return and/or downfall of his dear sister Cersei and die trying.

Tragic hero ftw, worthy of competing with the Hound.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

As much as he has unfinished business with Cersei (Though I think burning the letter is intentional misdirection. Even if Sandor defeats UnGregor, Jaime still seems like the obvious Valonqar. How that happens I'm not sure but I still think he's probably headed back to KL.) Jaime has a clear debt to pay with Bran. The easy guess is he sacrifices himself for him somehow but that might not appeal to GRRM.

[Arrogant Bastard]

As much as he has unfinished business with Cersei (Though I think burning the letter is intentional misdirection. Even if Sandor defeats UnGregor, Jaime still seems like the obvious Valonquar. How that happens I'm not sure but I still think he's probably headed back to KL.) Jaime has a clear debt to pay with Bran. The easy guess is he sacrifices himself for him somehow but that might not appeal to GRRM.

I think he will continue to redeem himself, but he won't be able to escape his past. Pushing Bran out of the window was the first major event of the book, and I think it will come back and somehow cause Jaime's downfall or death at a point where he seems to have completely turned his character around.

[Duskfire]

The reality is, Jaime is a grey character. A guy who has been in good spots and bad. He isn't a good guy. He isn't evil. He is out for himself, just like LF and so many others. He has tried to be forthright but life has a funny way of throwing a change up at you when you least expect it. All you can do is react and move on.

Some might say though that being out for yourself at the expense of others is evil. Being selfish is fine, but being selfish while disregarding basically everyone around you is not.

Jaime is an awesome character, but he is evil (in the human sense of the word, rather then the actual soul sense.) Him throwing Bran out of the window was bad, but the worst fact is that it hasnt given him guilt or sorrow or anything. The worst he has felt about it is that the event has given him far too much trouble. Those are not the words of a good man, or even a neutral man. A grey character is like Tyrion, who feels bad for people but nonetheless still does questionable things.

He is an amazing character, but I do think that people spend far too much time justifying his actions when really, there isnt any sort of justification for throwing a boy out of a window and not feeling guilty about it. Not to mention his disregard for human life in general.

[Raksha the Demon]

I would be disappointed if Jaime survives the series; unless he ends up on the Wall, which would be rather awkward if Jon is still there too...

Jaime Lannister is an interesting character, but I don't see much evidence of regret for his attack on Bran either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jaime also threatened to kill Edmure Tully's child when it was born if Tully did not yield; and Jaime seemed to make this and the other threats partially to show the world, his aunt, and himself that he was as badass as Tywin.

I would give Jaime more points up the decency scale than Cersei, though, anytime. Neither of them demonstrate nearly as much empathy for others as Tyrion possesses.

[Marcus of the South]

The other reading of that scene is that he is trying to scare Edmure into surrendering and he had no desire, or possibly even intention, of carrying out the threat. He just didn't want to storm the walls as he'd sworn not to.

I certainly don't think a will to emulate Tywin ever came into it.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

The other reading of that scene is that he is trying to scare Edmure into surrendering and he had no desire, or possibly even intention, of carrying out the threat. He just didn't want to storm the walls as he'd sworn not to.

I certainly don't think a will to emulate Tywin ever came into it.

Right. To be fair to him, Jaime's trying to find a way to avoid breaking his oath to Cat about taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys.

[Maginor]

I think "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" will come back and bite him. He wasn't responsible for the Red Wedding at all, but because of that line, now everybody who was there thinks he was. And Tom of Sevenstreams will know exactly when he leaves Riverrun.

I don't think it will be as simple as Jaime getting hanged, or at least I hope not. I hope he gets to see Bran again before the end, for instance.