fringemonster Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Ok, so there is something that has been concerning me for a while about this fandom. I've been in it for a while, but I'm a new member of this forum (hi!) and I am, of course, very excited about this new series. And so far I've found it to be a pretty OK adaption, with a few exceptions. I feel like the high concentration of men in this fanbase is bringing the series down. The books are intelligent, emotional and deep, while the series has been filled with random shots of breasts and fighting. Just look at how Roz has been introduced for the sole purpose of pandering to the male fanbase, and they're wasting valuable screen time to show us her vulva. I know that men are men, and that can't be helped, but I am very concerned about the way the source material is being changed. Some may argue that the men bring up the viewer figures higher, but at what cost? Can we expect important plot points to be changed or removed, because men are too shallow to understand them? I'd hope not, but I'm starting to worry a bit. I know not all men are like this, but looking at some of the online forums, I'm a bit worried. Will season 2 devolve into random violence and sex? At this rate, I'm worried they might. I don't know about you guys, but I really don't want this emotionally involved show to turn into a weekly 40-minute porno with some random fighting thrown in.What do you think? Will they stick to the source material in the future, as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 There's plenty of breasts and random violence in the source novels. While I do think that "sexposition" was a bit overused (mainly the scene with Littlefinger, really, and that mostly because the scene then goes on to repeat its point a second time), I really doubt this has anything to do with the fanbase of the show, and more to do with the aims of the executive producers and HBO. Being able to have full frontal nudity (both female and male) is one of the things being part of a premium cable channel that doesn't need to be ad-supported lets them do... and it's a very quick (and perhaps a bit cheap) way of indicating that the genre may be "fantasy", but the content is mature.Every scene with Ros served a point besides highlighting her nudity, in any case. It's a good way to introduce Tyrion, whom people seem to forget is a bit of a whoremonger; it gives us some insight into Theon, both the callow, youthful side of him and the side that's growing increasingly bothered by his status; it provides an unexpected insight into Pycelle, miring him in the same sort of sordid business as everyone else; and it tells us a lot about Littlefinger (in an over-written scene, admittedly). They're not just for the T&A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanderpanda Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Personally from what I've seen from the majority of forums and sites I visit (which are quite a lot: here, TWOP, ONTD, /tv/, imdb, winter-is-coming etc) and from people in person is that most believe there is too much sex and nudity. Many have cited Ros as major annoyance and unneeded character so I think its a rather big generalization to believe all the men in the fandom want to see boobs and vag just as much as I believe its massive generalization that all the female fans just want pretty men and romance. As Ran said above though Its mostly just a decision on HBO and the producers end to amp up the late night cable factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podrick + Arya = Win Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 NVM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferthepoet Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Ok, so there is something that has been concerning me for a while about this fandom. I've been in it for a while, but I'm a new member of this forum (hi!) and I am, of course, very excited about this new series. And so far I've found it to be a pretty OK adaption, with a few exceptions. I feel like the high concentration of men in this fanbase is bringing the series down. The books are intelligent, emotional and deep, while the series has been filled with random shots of breasts and fighting. Just look at how Roz has been introduced for the sole purpose of pandering to the male fanbase, and they're wasting valuable screen time to show us her vulva. I know that men are men, and that can't be helped, but I am very concerned about the way the source material is being changed. Some may argue that the men bring up the viewer figures higher, but at what cost? Can we expect important plot points to be changed or removed, because men are too shallow to understand them? I'd hope not, but I'm starting to worry a bit. I know not all men are like this, but looking at some of the online forums, I'm a bit worried. Will season 2 devolve into random violence and sex? At this rate, I'm worried they might. I don't know about you guys, but I really don't want this emotionally involved show to turn into a weekly 40-minute porno with some random fighting thrown in.What do you think? Will they stick to the source material in the future, as well?As far as I can see no one in the fandom is really happy about Ros some people do not care and some are very annoyed (specially because of her moaning which even the writers know is ridiculous as lampshaded in show by littlefinger himself). Now although everybody in the internet hates Ros HBO probably believes that the sex attracts people who are non readers and who do not care about the story enough to go on the internet and discuss about it are attracted by the sex. There's no way to know if they are right or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aktarian Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Another thing to consider is that Martin takes an unromantic view of sex in series. You have (gang)rapes, prostitution, extramaritial affairs, incest.... Show simply reflects that and people would complain if it was glossed over or ignored.And I think it's telling that issue of nudity is an issue while violence isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 aktarian,The OP noted "random violence" as another issue she was concerned about, so I'd say violence in the show has been at least in part an issue as well.I can't say I recall a lot of it, though. Almost all the violence we've seen is straight out of the books. There's Drogo's gruesome fight... which wasn't initially planned, until Jason Momoa asked the writers to write it up because he had this great idea (yes, tearing Mago's tongue out through his slashed-open throat was Momoa's idea). What more? Hrm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 The "sexposition" aspect of the show has drawn a great deal of negative response from the board. Most of us understand why HBO chose to use such a draw for their viewing audience - basically, sex sells. And the very fact that it bothered us so much means that it got our attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 "Unnecessary belligerence"? Why, Ran, you know we never, ever have that on these forums! :grouphug: Who's for a rousing chorus of "Kumbayah"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aktarian Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 aktarian,The OP noted "random violence" as another issue she was concerned about, so I'd say violence in the show has been at least in part an issue as well.I can't say I recall a lot of it, though. Almost all the violence we've seen is straight out of the books. There's Drogo's gruesome fight... which wasn't initially planned, until Jason Momoa asked the writers to write it up because he had this great idea (yes, tearing Mago's tongue out through his slashed-open throat was Momoa's idea). What more? Hrm.You have Jaimie/Eddard confrontation, arrest of Eddard and killing of his people, Drogo's fight, confrontation outside Drogo's tent during blood magic, Bron's fight as Tyrion's champion, heads-on-pikes.I agree these scenes are from the book (except Drogo's fight, I guess authors had to give Drogo fateful wound somehow and this looks more ipressive than Dany simply seeing him already wounded) but so are sex scenes, for most part. Some are gratuitous (LF and two women) but if you are going to show a sex/nudity scene go full way instead of shying from some skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiver Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 While the books do have a fair bit of sex and nudity i'd say there's been a difference in tone between that shown in the show and and that covered in the books and i think this has been what has irked me most. I really went into detail about it after the first episode () and frankly i'm loathe to get into it again as the response was just ignorant accusations of puritanism and rants about conservative morality that totally ignored the point i and several others made. I feel there's also a difference between the nudity from other HBO shows like Deadwood and Rome where it was more evenly spread and imo more natural and less calculated and bore more similarity to lesser HBO shows such as True Blood and Entourage. So i sort of agree. I'd like them to find a more mature tone where nudity is a natural part of the world and where the actors and actressess are willing to embrace the role and the demands of it and show what is required to seem right (ie. not limit to tits and bums so we have to get weird looking placement of shots. The show has done well at points though. The wine sellers nudity was the sort that for me added to the world and to a degree (despite not liking the scene) Pycelle's see through robe. What is very telling for me is that when people objected to Ros nudity they were called puritans etc. but when several people complained about Pycelle's robe and wanted more hot guy nudity they weren't picked up as immature.While i don't think it is as bad as the OP says there's definitely room for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanderpanda Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 You have Jaimie/Eddard confrontation, arrest of Eddard and killing of his people, Drogo's fight, confrontation outside Drogo's tent during blood magic, Bron's fight as Tyrion's champion, heads-on-pikes.I agree these scenes are from the book (except Drogo's fight, I guess authors had to give Drogo fateful wound somehow and this looks more ipressive than Dany simply seeing him already wounded) but so are sex scenes, for most part. Some are gratuitous (LF and two women) but if you are going to show a sex/nudity scene go full way instead of shying from some skin.The violence is necessary to the story though as is most of the book sex scenes. The main issue is really the added cable nudity from Ros which is added purely for the "sex sells" draw card. The info from the sexpositions can easily be relayed another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Fringemonster, something else to keep in mind: The writers of the show almost certainly know that their added "sexposition" scenes caused great displeasure among a large part of the fan-base they were trying to attract. I wouldn't be surprised if they react to said response by toning it down a smidgen for the next season. By and large, good writers don't pander to vocal minorities. But they do listen to their majority watchers, and so far I can't imagine their reaction will be anything other than "Wow. They didn't like that much, did they? Maybe we oughtta rethink some of this next time around..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 You can convey the information from the violence in other ways too, though. I think it's all a matter of tone to some degree. For example, the nudity in that last Pycelle scene actually struck me as very well chosen. Oh, you could have had her starting dressed and conveyed that she had had sex with him a few moments before through dialog, but... it's not so visceral, is it, to just have it said? At the same time, there's a frankness to the way that he's just babbling on about kings while she's very casually getting herself cleaned up and dressed that doesn't really feel exploitive of the sexuality -- it's a mature way of conveying something about both these characters, and about the setting. Yes, there's T&A, but honestly, watching Ros cleaning herself up and dabbing at the inside of her thighs isn't exactly sexy when the reason she's doing it is a very old man sitting there reminiscing about old days while she barely pays attention. It's a very unsexy scene to be nude in.At least, it wasn't sexy for me, and I suspect the writers were basically subverting the sexiness of the character normally by having her involved in such a relationship, one that she sure wasn't excited by. It's the same with the violence. We could have skipped seeing the nameless household butchered, but it sets a bold tone to the start of the episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLarkin Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I find this accusation very sexist and incredibly insulting. Men being men can't be helped and men are too shallow to understand plot points? Jeez. As already stated, the vast majority of the fan base have complained about the overuse of sex and nudity in the show, and the vast majority of the fan base are male. Even Coster-Waldau has stated that HBO were pressing for all the sex and he implied it got a little out of hand. I imagine the number one reason there is so much compared to other shows is because HBO were worried about the fantasy aspect of the show and wanted it to come across as for adults, rather than kids. I'm sure there will be a reduction next year.And I wouldn't hold the soruce material in such high regard if this sort of stuff annoys you; if we're lucky next year we'll get Theon ejaculating in some random woman's gob whilst he's on his way to Pyke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanderpanda Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I find this accusation very sexist and incredibly insulting. Men being men can't be helped and men are too shallow to understand plot points? Jeez. As already stated, the vast majority of the fan base have complained about the overuse of sex and nudity in the show, and the vast majority of the fan base are male. Even Coster-Waldau has stated that HBO were pressing for all the sex and he implied it got a little out of hand. I imagine the number one reason there is so much compared to other shows is because HBO were worried about the fantasy aspect of the show and wanted it to come across as for adults, rather than kids. I'm sure there will be a reduction next year.And I wouldn't hold the soruce material in such high regard if this sort of stuff annoys you; if we're lucky next year we'll get Theon ejaculating in some random woman's gob whilst he's on his way to Pyke.That part of his chapter made me lol when I read it, so over the top. It will probably be shown though since we will need a sexpostition for the audience to spew out all the info about his family and their history that he has in his thoughts during that scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryFenril Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 The only sexposition scene that truly bothered me was Petyr's soliloquy with Roz getting "trained" in the background. I understand their reasoning behind it - it shows what Petyr does for a living, and reminds us that he can completely ignore physical pleasures in the face of his ambitions, as jaded as he is - but it bothered me that it was so shallow and obviously meant to produce "boing!-age" during what is otherwise a very important revelation about his deeper intentions. It struck me as clumsy, transparent, and unnecessary, and I would have much preferred something a wee bit more subtle. But I don't consider myself a purist - just halfway intelligent. Even Theon's tete-a-tete with Ros was okay with me, because it showed his willingness to yammer his head off about anything with anyone, and the sad fact that even prostitutes refuse to take him seriously. He has to resort to implied violence to get her attention, which foreshadows his future behavior. He is a man whom no one respects and everyone ignores, and eventually he's going to have to do something drastic to get the attention he craves. Oops. Did I say that out loud? :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Ian McShane can probably teach Alfie Allen a thing or two about playing such a scene, given he had several such scenes in Deadwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fan Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I find this accusation very sexist and incredibly insulting. Men being men can't be helped and men are too shallow to understand plot points? Jeez. Allow me to second this.I resent the accusation that the show would be better if it didn't have to cater to the inferior male species, whose low intelligence and easily-distractable-by-boobies-nature must be pandered to.-1 for your maiden voyage into generally welcoming waters. :thumbsdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctas Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Funny how it only took a few posts for the sexist remarks to be called out, while other threads I've been reading today include page upon page of rudeness and horrendous generalisations of female fans. :rolleyes: ah well. OP's post made me laugh, if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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