Sansa, Arya and feminism

[Early Earl]

I'm not sure if there's much interest to discuss those matters. But I'll like to give it a try. The idea came to me when I read about people disliking Sansa but most people liking Arya. They are quite different types of charackters of course but still are, compared to others in the novels, more on "the good side" if there is such in the novels.

Sansa

Upon first reading I disliked her a lot because she is naive, self-involved, somewhat arrogant (he's our half-brother) and first reason for Ned to loose his head. Rereading the novels I kept reminding me that she's only 13 years of age and "victim" of a traditional upbringing. When you read carefully through her later chapter, you might realize, that she's not only pretty but quite smart as well (she understands LF's plans right away and is able to act accordingly).

Arya

She's quite the opposite: rebellious, self-confident, thinking for herself, tough and open-minded towards others (also low-born ppl). She would fit much better in modern times, or at least, might be happier then.

But that's exactly the question: While obviously Sansa and Arya are clichee types of women that are even in our times held against each other as the true ideal for women I wonder if a statement about that was intended by GRRM? And which exactly would it be?

I have read some 80s-fantasy novels lately and there's hardly any which doesnt glorify the fact of being disabled, dark-skinned or female by making a person with such attributes the main hero. It's boring, obvious and hardly helping the cause. So I really appreciate the fact that GRRM lets us have our own opinion on that topic by giving us two stereotypes to choose or actually not choose between.

As I have not completly made up my mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

[FacelessGirl]

Arya and Sansa were meant to balance each other's personalities out in the books. You can pretty much pick and choose what you like about them: for one I love Arya's fire and survivalism, while I admire and almost envy Sansa's early idealism and innocence about EVERYTHING. I realize people will prefer one character over the other, but its not as simple as that. Sansa to me is who we all were before we grew up and realize life wasn't at all like the stories we were told. Arya is who we become when we go through hardships, and come out stronger and wiser. No, we don't come out sociopaths, which isn't to say that's what Arya is. She's just a traumatized kid who has many more years ahead of her.

Sorry if this was rambley. Let me know what you think. :D

[SirPipeWeed]

I think Sansa has the exact same quality Arya has. It's called survival. I have no problem with anything Sansa has done, her entire motive is self preservation at this point. I mean think about this.... In her world the most powerful man she ever knew, got his head chopped off by her future husband. She is beaten routinely, no one ever comes to save her, she gets a pass in my opinion.

[FacelessGirl]

I think Sansa has the exact same quality Arya has. It's called survival. I have no problem with anything Sansa has done, her entire motive is self preservation at this point. I mean think about this.... In her world the most powerful man she ever knew, got his head chopped off by her future husband. She is beaten routinely, no one ever comes to save her, she gets a pass in my opinion.

Totally agree. Just because she's not kicking ass like Arya, doesn't mean Sansa is surviving. She just doing it the more conventional way for her class and gender.

[mcb]

I'm not sure if there's much interest to discuss those matters. But I'll like to give it a try. The idea came to me when I read about people disliking Sansa but most people liking Arya. They are quite different types of charackters of course but still are, compared to others in the novels, more on "the good side" if there is such in the novels.

Sansa

Upon first reading I disliked her a lot because she is naive, self-involved, somewhat arrogant (he's our half-brother) and first reason for Ned to loose his head.

How come? When Ned decided to trust Littlefinger, his freedom was as good as gone. And as for his head, he lost it because Joffrey was a sadistic little shit. Where does Sansa fit in?

I have read some 80s-fantasy novels lately and there's hardly any which doesnt glorify the fact of being disabled, dark-skinned or female by making a person with such attributes the main hero.

Err... what?

[Early Earl]

How come? When Ned decided to trust Littlefinger, his freedom was as good as gone. And as for his head, he lost it because Joffrey was a sadistic little shit. Where does Sansa fit in?

She tells Cersei of Ned's plans to send his daughters home NOW and tell Robert about the incest. IIrc Cersei once mentions how important that information was for her

Err... what?

I'm not a native english-speaker so excuse my hard time to make things clear here.

A lot of those novels (take Earthsea, the novels by E. Lynn, Alanna for example) feature a main hero that has attributes which in modern life and western civilizations would make for a reason of discrimination. At least until recently. Now in those novels it is described how you can be the saviour of the world DESPITE being female, dark-skinned or whatever. I don't think it should be "Despite" - those authors lay too much importance to those singled-out attributes. GRRM instead gives us pretty rounded up chrackterizations of those two girls while also making them stereotypes:

Sansa is the needle-working, pretty, polite little girl that (at first) doesnt intrude in the men's world and just behaves like a nice little accesoire (just as my prince commands).

Arya is a rebellious, "needle"-working girl with a mind of her own. Just like Brienne she would be disapproved of, once she grew up, basically because she doesnt bow to the male domination of that time.

I wondered if that's a better way of making a statement about the political connotaions with that or if such was intended at all. I think GRRM doesnt really want to make such statements too obviously, but it still seems he didnt ignore it either.

Those few posts (thank you very much) let me think though that not many were made to think about that. Maybe it's more Brienne that makes people think about it.

[Nausicaä]

She tells Cersei of Ned's plans to send his daughters home NOW and tell Robert about the incest. IIrc Cersei once mentions how important that information was for her

Sansa didn't even know anything besides the fact that they were being sent home. IIRC Cersei tells Tyrion that Sansa told her everything about Eddard's plans because she couldn't tell him Eddard and her had that conversation in which he revealed he knew about the incest because Tyrion himself hasn't revealed that he knew about incest until later in ACOK.

[trio]

I don't really understand the "feminism" part of your post. Feminism is equal rights for women. Since Westeros is hardly equal in the way men and women are allowed by society to live, it seems to me to be a moot point in this discussion. The odd exception aside, women do not get to live the same as men in that world. And actually, Cersei is about the only one who seems to be really bothered by that.

Arya is operating completely out of society. Therefore she does not have to conform. If she had never left WF, her life would have been very different - she would have been married off like everyone else. Actually, even afterwards she was betrothed to a Frey.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Oh, a Sansa thread. As much as I would like to vent my anger, I'm going to hold back.

I'd just like to address this 'misconception' that Arya is liked because she's a tomboy, rebellious, kills people etc. A misconception that such a character is more appealing to male readers.

WRONG. Brienne is technically the same as Arya, tomboyish, strong, she fights and kills etc. but I don't like Brienne either.

Arya's characters are just fun to read. I don't know if its because of a David Copperfield vibe or not, but even though she is horrified by what's happening around her, she has a willpower to survive and fight back which is appealing.

This is probably the main difference between Sansa and Arya. I sense Arya has been written as a strong willed character. Sansa apologists might say that she has her own unique willpower in that she endured KL for so long. Well, she survived because of the pity of Tyrion and the Hound. Nothing of her own accord. And she was more apt to cry and feel sorry for herself.

[Ser Pistus]

I think in the first 3 books Arya's chapters were better reads than Sansa's because the supporting cast was much cooler. Syrio, Jaqen, Roose Bolton, Beric&Thoros, the Hound, while poor Sansa is doomed with Cersei and Dontos for chapter after chapter. But after Sansa teams up with Littlefinger, few people complain about her storyline.

[Free Northman]

I think in the first 3 books Arya's chapters were better reads than Sansa's because the supporting cast was much cooler. Syrio, Jaqen, Roose Bolton, Beric&Thoros, the Hound, while poor Sansa is doomed with Cersei and Dontos for chapter after chapter. But after Sansa teams up with Littlefinger, few people complain about her storyline.

What do you mean?

Arya was always interesting because of Arya. Mycah wasn't interesting, but Arya was when she was smashing Joffrey's face with a wooden sword. Septa Mordayne or whoever wasn't interesting, but Arya was, even when she was making crooked stitches in Book 1, because of her irreverent attitude and adventurous spirit.

And Sansa. Well Sansa is still boring, Littlefinger, Bronze Yohn Royce and Lyn Corbray or not.

It's not the supporting cast. It's the characters themselves that are intersting and boring respectively.

Who cares what Sansa says to the lady who rides up to the Eyrie and gossips with her about all the lords she slept with?

But I care even if Arya talks to Quello King of Seals or whoever, simply because Arya is interesting by nature.

And Sansa is not.

[ptyx]

What do you mean?

Arya was always interesting because of Arya.

And Sansa. Well Sansa is still boring,

Who cares what Sansa says to the lady who rides up to the Eyrie and gossips with her about all the lords she slept with?

But I care even if Arya talks to Quello King of Seals or whoever, simply because Arya is interesting by nature.

And Sansa is not.

I disagree.

Sansa' development is much wider, she grows emotionally, socially and gets a knowledge and experience about the "game of thrones", which added to her intelligence (and she's much more intelligent than Arya apparently) makes her actually a "Littlefinger in making".

Arya on the other hand is becoming an outcast, she couldn't ever become a real player of the game; her chapters are still fun to read, but she's mostly developing her skills, she's still the same Arya from the beginning of the series, only much more experienced.

[trio]

Brienne is technically the same as Arya, tomboyish, strong, she fights and kills etc. but I don't like Brienne either.

Arya's characters are just fun to read. I don't know if its because of a David Copperfield vibe or not, but even though she is horrified by what's happening around her, she has a willpower to survive and fight back which is appealing.

This is probably the main difference between Sansa and Arya. I sense Arya has been written as a strong willed character. Sansa apologists might say that she has her own unique willpower in that she endured KL for so long. Well, she survived because of the pity of Tyrion and the Hound. Nothing of her own accord. And she was more apt to cry and feel sorry for herself.

*raises hand* I actually prefer Brienne to Arya. I agree totally that they are similar. I think the reason I prefer Brienne is because she's kinda insecure the whole time. Her chapters are plagued with self-doubt which makes me more empathetic to her. Arya's are not, really - which I think is down to her age. She's only what? 10? 10 year olds don't self-analyze that much. They just ACT. So for me, underneath they're different in the way they think, though superficially they're both kick-ass.

Sansa shows courage in KL. She almost shoves Joffrey off a ledge, and tries to hold her own the rest of the time. But sadly, once she leaves she reverts a bit, and has done nothing much since. She's been in a holding pattern for the last year in story-time, which doesn't make me gnash my teeth at the character, but does make me want to shake GRRM! What a waste.

I have argued in the past though that perhaps Sansa is the truest representation of ordinary Westerosi noblewomen in the whole series. She is meant (I think) to be typical of the type. She comes from a society where women expect their whole lives to be mapped out. They are raised from infancy to believe that they will have little self-governance. I suspect GRRM is showing us Sansa, being very passive and reliant on men for her safety all along, and saying "See?? You can scorn this all you like - but this is what females would be like, most of the time!"

It's a hard pill to swallow. Half the readers seem to find the Sansa in AFFC to be hopeless; without much of a future in the series. She has developed so little that they've given up on her becoming interesting in the bare 2 books remaining.

The other half are Sansa fans, who I'm afraid, read rather a great deal into her couple of conversations with LF. "See how she understands what he's saying! See??!" Sadly, there's not a whole lot to see other than she has some latent intelligence. But even they would rather twist her into knots to prove that she could potentially be kick-ass than face the possibility that perhaps GRRM does not intend her to ever be like that. That she never will be anything but passive, and that is the whole point.

[Breakspear]

I think of the two Stark daughters, Arya is the hardest to believe.

Sansa rings true to me as she is very much a product of the limitations placed upon because of her gender. She is kept comparitively powerless and her naivete has never been discouraged. This is in contrast to the way the Stark boys are treated; witnessing beheadings and recieving martial training from a young age is the norm for the males. This continues when Ned takes her south, and he keeps her completely in the dark regarding his feelings and thoughts towards the Lannisters and the dangers they may pose. As a result, Sansa is completely unprepared for the events that follow Ned's arrest and execution. Her reactions and behaviour are what I would expect from somebody with her upbringing.

You may say that Arya was raised the same way and she turned out differently, and this is why I think Arya is the more fantastical of the two characters. She seems to be entirely resistant to all efforts to make her conform to what a young lady should be. She is the exception to the encouraged female modes of behaviour. Perhaps it is a Northern thing, or it relates to her young age, but it serves the story well and I'm not complaining.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

*raises hand* I actually prefer Brienne to Arya. I agree totally that they are similar. I think the reason I prefer Brienne is because she's kinda insecure the whole time. Her chapters are plagued with self-doubt which makes me more empathetic to her. Arya's are not, really - which I think is down to her age. She's only what? 10? 10 year olds don't self-analyze that much. They just ACT. So for me, underneath they're different in the way they think, though superficially they're both kick-ass.

Sansa shows courage in KL. She almost shoves Joffrey off a ledge, and tries to hold her own the rest of the time. But sadly, once she leaves she reverts a bit, and has done nothing much since. She's been in a holding pattern for the last year in story-time, which doesn't make me gnash my teeth at the character, but does make me want to shake GRRM! What a waste.

I have argued in the past though that perhaps Sansa is the truest representation of ordinary Westerosi noblewomen in the whole series. She is meant (I think) to be typical of the type. She comes from a society where women expect their whole lives to be mapped out. They are raised from infancy to believe that they will have little self-governance. I suspect GRRM is showing us Sansa, being very passive and reliant on men for her safety all along, and saying "See?? You can scorn this all you like - but this is what females would be like, most of the time!"

It's a hard pill to swallow. Half the readers seem to find the Sansa in AFFC to be hopeless; without much of a future in the series. She has developed so little that they've given up on her becoming interesting in the bare 2 books remaining.

The other half are Sansa fans, who I'm afraid, read rather a great deal into her couple of conversations with LF. "See how she understands what he's saying! See??!" Sadly, there's not a whole lot to see other than she has some latent intelligence. But even they would rather twist her into knots to prove that she could potentially be kick-ass than face the possibility that perhaps GRRM does not intend her to ever be like that. That she never will be anything but passive, and that is the whole point.

I agree with these points. And which is why it is infuriating to read about Sansa because if she's not going to develop into a major player, why bother with her? She is also one of the characters who would have benefited from a 5 year gap. If the timeline from ADWD to ADOS is continuous, I don't think any girl aged 14 (except Margaery maybe) can become a player at the Game of Thrones, even less so when we have the dim witted Sansa.

This is also why I rage at killing off Ned, Robb and Catelyn. Major distinguished characters were killed off and not replaced well. And we are left with riff raff like Sansa.

[Breakspear]

I agree with these points. And which is why it is infuriating to read about Sansa because if she's not going to develop into a major player, why bother with her?

I think one reason is because, as somebody stated above, she represents a significant portion of noble Westerosi women and girls. It would be easy to just write about the powerful, dynamic characters, but I think it's more interesting to see everything.

[ptyx]

But even they would rather twist her into knots to prove that she could potentially be kick-ass than face the possibility that perhaps GRRM does not intend her to ever be like that. That she never will be anything but passive, and that is the whole point.

I agree with this part and this is why I disagree with the rest of your post.

We don't know what will become of Sansa. She may be an active player or a passive pawn, or she may not survive until the end of series.

Arya, on the other hand, can not enter in a game as a player at all, she's outside of any scheming. Her goals are totally different and her path of development seems straight.

That's why Sansa is a more interesting character.

[Wouter]

That she never will be anything but passive, and that is the whole point.

In so far as that may be true (Sansa has never been 100% passive - even if her few actions in AGOT were very unfortunate - and even Arya is sometimes passive; that's only realistic as human behaviour, they would be total charicatures if not), is that a problem? Not every reader thinks that a character has to be a flamboyant bad-ass like Jaime, a smart wisecracker like Tyrion, an icecold Machiavellian prince like Tywin or a master manipulator like Littlefinger to be interesting to read about.

For Arya and Sansa alike, what is most interesting in their chapters is the raw emotion you get from reading them, from seeing and feeling what is being done to them by the "interesting" characters named above and their likes. They also make a good contrast with the characters mentioned exactly because both are so innocent in their own ways. I like reading about both; for Sansa I specifically liked her chapters in ASOS and in AFFC and I can't wait to read more (allthough it won't be in ADWD, sadly). And I definitely don't want Sansa to turn into Littlefinger junior or Cersei II; I prefer her as she is now. Similarly, I don't want Arya to actually become a faceless (wo)man; training is all well and good but I prefer Arya Stark of Winterfel over "no one".

Ptix; getting Sansa and Arya to meet and work together and I suspect they could be quite effective. They would cover each others weak points and their strong points would be complimentary.

[tozka]

Who cares what Sansa says to the lady who rides up to the Eyrie and gossips with her about all the lords she slept with?

I do.

[Wouter]

I do.

Seconded.