Sansa, Arya and feminism

[Iotun]

Just a thought: We've been discussing feminism mainly in terms of female characters and how they're portrayed, but might it be useful to discuss it in terms of male characters too? For example, how does GRRM use the male POV characters' dealings with or thoughts about women to illustrate the relationship between men and women in Westeros?

One thing that's kind of interesting, given the medieval setting, is the absence of male characters who are devoted to an unattainable woman in the courtly love tradition of medieval literature. We get it in some non-POVs--Jorah and maybe Sandor--but as far as POVs are concerned, it's mainly women who idealize and idolize men they can't have: Sansa, Brienne, even Cersei in the case of Rhaegar. The men, on the other hand, think about the women they've been with or the women they're with now. Not sure if it means anything, but is it possible that these authorial choices were affected by social norms in modern society, where women are more promiscuous and available to men outside of marriage, which means both that men don't have to work as hard to get laid and that women have to compete more with each other to "land" desirable men? This might explain why the male POV characters find sexual satisfaction pretty quickly and don't exhibit a significant degree of longing for particular unattainable women, whereas the female characters spend a lot of time thinking about men who are "out of their league".

All of this makes me wonder, on a related note: has courtly love become more of a female thing than a male thing in modern society?

I guess I'm trying to get at the ways in which modern gender roles have impinged on the medieval setting, and what this story might have to tell us about our own society.

Hm not sure. Id say men are just as easy to please in the medieval setting because of the ease with which they can have women. Note that we are mostly concerned with noble men who either can force or seduce common girl, get married early for political reasons or can find whores all around them. But we do see the affect of gender relations and expectations and of them lusting for women they cannot have - Robb and a girl hes not meant to marry, Tyrion in love with a girl too common for his station (and always in search for an imaginary girl who will love him), and the obvious example which you missed, Littlefinger and Catelyn.

[mcb]

Sansa was under a lot of pressure because she was betrothed to him, which means that from her perspective it was in her best interest not to call him out on his misbehavior. Think about it. You've been betrothed to someone and you've just met his family (who rule the country and who you'll be living with for the rest of your life) and he misbehaves so you...

...stop thinking of him as a noble prince, since he showed to be anything but. Joffrey shows his true colors as a coward, sadist and a mean drunk to boot. Cersei demonstrates her cruelty. One might expect that at least Lady's death would open Sansa's eyes... and yet right until Ned's execution she choses to believe in Queen Cersei the Kind and Prince Joffrey the Valiant.

[Alexia]

Hm not sure. Id say men are just as easy to please in the medieval setting because of the ease with which they can have women. Note that we are mostly concerned with noble men who either can force or seduce common girl, get married early for political reasons or can find whores all around them. But we do see the affect of gender relations and expectations and of them lusting for women they cannot have - Robb and a girl hes not meant to marry, Tyrion in love with a girl too common for his station (and always in search for an imaginary girl who will love him), and the obvious example which you missed, Littlefinger and Catelyn.

I'd also mention Tyrion and Sansa. I was rereading the ASOS chapters from Sansa and Tyrion last night, and noticed that the dynamic could be described as Tyrion longing for a girl who was out of his league. It was actually quite interesting to reread his thoughts about her and their marriage and what I would describe as desperation for her to love him. Tyrion is, at some level, a romantic who has always longed for a beautiful wife to love him completely and watching him try to apply those expectations to Sansa... *shakes head*

Littlefinger and Catelyn is an excellent one as well.

[latetothparty]

I'd also mention Tyrion and Sansa. I was rereading the ASOS chapters from Sansa and Tyrion last night, and noticed that the dynamic could be described as Tyrion longing for a girl who was out of his league. It was actually quite interesting to reread his thoughts about her and their marriage and what I would describe as desperation for her to love him. Tyrion is, at some level, a romantic who has always longed for a beautiful wife to love him completely and watching him try to apply those expectations to Sansa... *shakes head*

I've always wondered how Tyrion would have reacted if Tywin had found him a dwarf to marry. Something tells me he would not have tried to make the best of it -- but then I doubt that it would ever occur to Martin to put Tyrion in that situation.

As far as Sansa and Arya go, yes, they have very different personalities and Martin deliberately mapped out fates for them that would capitalize on their strengths: Sansa as the courtly female and Arya as the tomboy. However, they have one thing in common I find fascinating, and that is that neither of them are particularly moral. This is not to say that either lacks compassion or basic human decency, but prior to Ned's death neither of them seems to have been exposed to any kind of moral code beyond maintaining the honor of the family (granted, few characters in the series have a moral code that extends much beyond that; I'd say Brienne, Beric, Ned, and a handful of the Night's Watch are the few that spring to mind). Of course, they are both children -- but they are now children who have fallen into situations where they are both receiving deliberate instruction in how to be amoral: how to pretend to be other people in order to achieve some end (inheriting the Vale, getting revenge, etc.).

What will be interesting to see is how each girl uses that training. Both can be compassionate, but neither has learned why or how to be compassionate to her enemies, and both have demonstrated a certain ruthlessness: Sansa in her willingness to blab to Cersei in order to remain in King's Landing & in her complicity with Petyr's murder of her aunt, and Arya in her now almost casual attitude toward killing. Will Sansa continue to manipulate situations and Arya to kill purely or survival or revenge, or will they find some other, more principled use for their new skills?

[mormont]

I've always wondered how Tyrion would have reacted if Tywin had found him a dwarf to marry. Something tells me he would not have tried to make the best of it -- but then I doubt that it would ever occur to Martin to put Tyrion in that situation.

No need to wonder: as far as I can see GRRM did put Tyrion in, if not that exact situation, a fairly comparable one. Lady Tanda pursues him assiduously as a marriage prospect for Lollys, and we know how Tyrion reacts to that.

There's no doubt that (as of the last time we saw him) Tyrion is a bit of a hypocrite in this respect: though he of all people should know better, he's inclined to judge people by appearances, particularly pretty women.

[Wouter]

No need to wonder: as far as I can see GRRM did put Tyrion in, if not that exact situation, a fairly comparable one. Lady Tanda pursues him assiduously as a marriage prospect for Lollys, and we know how Tyrion reacts to that.

There's no doubt that (as of the last time we saw him) Tyrion is a bit of a hypocrite in this respect: though he of all people should know better, he's inclined to judge people by appearances, particularly pretty women.

This is unfair to Tyrion; Lollys is a lackwit, a bad match for Tyrion in all respects. She also is not a dwarf, so physically not a match for him (not that this matters that much, but a real dwarf woman may appeal more to him because of what they share).

Both can be compassionate, but neither has learned why or how to be compassionate to her enemies, and both have demonstrated a certain ruthlessness: Sansa in her willingness to blab to Cersei in order to remain in King's Landing & in her complicity with Petyr's murder of her aunt, and Arya in her now almost casual attitude toward killing. Will Sansa continue to manipulate situations and Arya to kill purely or survival or revenge, or will they find some other, more principled use for their new skills?

I disagree Sansa is ruthless - she seems to be anything but ruthless, actually. The blabbing to Cersei thing is a naive girl of 11 who disobeys her father and didn't understand what she was doing - that's hardly "ruthless". It was childish, immature, selfish, stupid, naive, yes, but "ruthless" is not the way to describe it. It's not like Sansa even suspected the consequences for what she did.

As for the complicity with LF in the murder of her aunt and of Marillion, well it's LF and her aunt and Marillion himself who were being ruthless here.

LF, because he deliberately brought her in this situation where she is utterly and totally dependant on him for her survival, including framing her for Joffrey's murder. Because he forced the whole situation with the kiss. Because he is a cold blooded killer who was just using Lysa. Because he pressured Sansa into lying to solve the situation he himself had created, and he used all his leverage over Sansa to get her to cooperate.

Lysa, because she was coldly using Sansa, her niece, in the same way Cersei was using Sansa: to be an obedient wife for her son, completely in the power of her mother-in-law. Lysa pretty much hated her sister and treated her daughter accordingly. Lysa, because she was besotted with Marillion and allowed him to be a menace to the personnel of the Eyrie while she was sending away people "for telling lies about him". Lysa, because she took out her anger over LF's infidelity (her final few sentences make it clear she doubted very much that LF truly loved her) on Sansa, right down to the attempt to kill Sansa. If she hadn't been able to grab her aunt's hair, she would have been a blob on the mountain, I think the text leaves very little doubt that Lysa was going to kill her own niece. She also admitted in the same scene that she had her husband murdered, together with LF.

Marillion, because he already had tried to rape Sansa once (stopped by Ser Brune), because he had apparently raped or attempted to rape a number of serving girls (and gotten some banished from Lysa's household, presumably because they complained about him), and especially because he was complicit in Lysa's attempted murder on Sansa, closing the door for the guards and playing to drown out the cries.

So, Sansa did follow LF's script in lying about what happened. If she hadn't, she would likely have been accused of complicity in the murder of Lysa, or cast out of Eyrie and Gates of the Moon after her "father" was executed for murdering the lade of the Vale (and because of "Alayne", let's not forget), if her identity hadn't come to light. But since that almost certainly would have come to light (LF could say so, for one, and explaining what really happened would have been very awkward if she didn't tell the whole truth including her real identity), most likely she would have been on her way to Cersei to be tortured to death (as Cersei promises in AFFC she would do with Sansa).

So, Sansa lied and condemned Marillion and protected LF with this. I don't blame her or think this to be ruthless; she did what she had to for her survival and Marillion actually had it coming. Even so, she clearly was conflicted about the lies she told and the fate of Marillion and would have liked to avoid it if possible. I don't think we call, say, Robb Stark ruthless when he kills an enemy knight or men-at-arms in battle; this is much the same. Though Marillion at least was not a random guy in the wrong place at the wrong time (he knew he was helping Lysa to kill her, probably felt this was revenge for her refusing to sleep with him), and does anybody think Marillion would not have lied about what had happened if he had gotten the chance to speak without the torture LF was inflicting on him ("the lord protector and his daughter conspired to murder my Lady")?

I think that descriptions as "ruthless" are best left for guys like Tywin, LF himself, Varys, Cersei, Roose and Ramsay Bolton, Walder Frey, Joffrey, Drogo and co, even Jaime and Tyrion to some extent.

If Sansa has a potential to be ruthless, then it is in her interactions with maester Colemon regarding Sweetrobyn's medication. Her "what's good for Robert the boy is not always good for Robert the lord of the Vale" does have a slight ruthless undercurrent, but as of yet she doesn't understand quite how dangerous the "sweetsleep", I think. After LF told her about his plans, maybe that will change or maybe she will get a ruthless streak and cooperate with poisoning Sweetrobyn. But she hasn't done so yet and it remains to see how she will react; in this one she has a choice and she could yet choose to listen to Colemon.

[mormont]

This is unfair to Tyrion; Lollys is a lackwit, a bad match for Tyrion in all respects. She also is not a dwarf, so physically not a match for him (not that this matters that much, but a real dwarf woman may appeal more to him because of what they share).

She is indeed, but it's not unfair to point out that a substantial amount of Tyrion's reaction to the prospect of marrying her is about her physical appearance. That's the relevant issue. I see no way to deny this: on the subject of judging from appearances, Tyrion is a bit of a hypocrite. Or, if you prefer, he has trouble living up to his own advice. After Shae's betrayal, maybe he's learned a lesson: we'll have to see.

(As for 'not a dwarf, so physically not a match for him', that didn't concern him overly with Shae, or Tysha, or Sansa. He might have more sympathy for a dwarf woman than for Lollys, perhaps, but there's no doubt he'd prefer a pretty, normal-sized one.)

[Horza]

never mind.

[zuziako]

So, Sansa did follow LF's script in lying about what happened. If she hadn't, she would likely have been accused of complicity in the murder of Lysa, or cast out of Eyrie and Gates of the Moon after her "father" was executed for murdering the lade of the Vale (and because of "Alayne", let's not forget), if her identity hadn't come to light. But since that almost certainly would have come to light (LF could say so, for one, and explaining what really happened would have been very awkward if she didn't tell the whole truth including her real identity), most likely she would have been on her way to Cersei to be tortured to death (as Cersei promises in AFFC she would do with Sansa). So, Sansa lied and condemned Marillion and protected LF with this. I don't blame her or think this to be ruthless; she did what she had to for her survival and Marillion actually had it coming. Even so, she clearly was conflicted about the lies she told and the fate of Marillion and would have liked to avoid it if possible.

I think anyone sane would have done the same thing. I agree, it was the only choice for her to survive.

[Raisin Bran]

Okay, another girl's point of view! Ahem.

First, Sansa vs. Arya. They're both weak small children shunted around the map. Arya isn't a genius of survival who can swing on magic ropes and be a master of disguise, but Sansa and Arya Go With The Flow Without Getting Their Butts Killed. Arya trains her physical abilities, swordfighting and Faceness (Ninja wizard, am I right?!). Sansa is training to be a better version of her mom, the Political Woman. (Many such as myself agree that Catelyn was a stupid poobutt, but it took that Political Woman skills to capture Tyrion in the first place). I think Sansa'll be a better version of her mother because she has Littlefinger now as a possible political intriguey role model. (b-.-)b They're both good in their own ways.

Second, Gender Roles! If there was less sexism, Cersei probably would have less pent up insanity and aggression, and may have raised her son to be a saner person. Sometimes I think she lived through Joffrey... The reason, I think, that Cersei was so damn ambitious was that she could not inherit her father's land and titles, and got so frustrated about it she thought, "Fine, poohead! I'm going to get my share somehow!" especially after not hooking up with Rhaegar like she wanted. "Fine, dad! If you can't get me the hot guys I want, I'LL GET THEM MYSELF! I'm awesome."

As for Brienne being mistreated because she is ugly rather than her vagina, no. The Hound is ugly, but few say so to his face because he's a skilled dude. Brienne is also a skilled dude, but people that know that reject her. They make fun of her ugliness because in their minds, looks is all chicks got. Their embarrassment of knowing Brienne has comparable strength to THEIR manly muscles (Jamie) just makes them embarrassed over their manly muscles and they harass her more. All of these experiences probably just make Brienne work harder, i.e., "Well, maybe if I'm even STRONGER, they'll start respecting me!" In this way, many female characters are working extra harder than male ones, feeling pressure because of their gender (Arya, too. "Don't call me a little girl!").

Third and more interesting, feminism. The person I see as actually having the power to Show What Ladies Got Besides Boobs is Danaerys. If she pulls off the conquest, she may prove to future generations that hey, women can a) conquer B) rule without their husbands interfering c) be filled with win. WOO! :cheers: I'm not saying all women will rip off their gowns and start wearing pants, but they'll start Thinkin'.

tl;dr: 1. Arya and Sansa are both cool on different sides of the cool spectrum.

2. Gender Roles do influence the story by driving female characters to work extra hard so that they get the respect that they deserve.

3. Danaerys has the potential of giving women a good role model as a female queen/conqueror.

[Puruuku]

Although our perspectives are necessarily different because of different plumbing, I am with Raisin Bran on this one, especially her points regarding Brienne.

Regardless of time frame, human nature is still human nature and a good portion of males feel not only intimidated, but impotent when faced with intelligent, empowered,and/or powerful women. If Brienne were more comely she would have been betrothed and institutionally raped like most other women of higher birth at the time, but the plainess of appearance coupled with phenomenal fighting skills has made her an outcast. She exhibits many of the traits of a valued knight: bravery, dedication, devotion, loyalty, et al., but because she is a woman, she is still outcast. This is consistent with most male dominated fantasy millieus and almost guarantees that she will be a tragic figure throughout. Even if she fulfills all of her knightly purposes and dies valiantly in the service of her Lord, any memories or songs of her would still focus on the fact that she was a woman and not on the fact that she was a great warrior.

This leads naturally to discussions next of Catelyn, Cersei, Dany, Arya, and Sansa as well as minor characters Shae, Asha, and Osha as they are all in their own way either already empowered or are gaining it, but I don't have the werds today to add those in.

[latetothparty]

I disagree Sansa is ruthless - she seems to be anything but ruthless, actually. The blabbing to Cersei thing is a naive girl of 11 who disobeys her father and didn't understand what she was doing - that's hardly "ruthless". It was childish, immature, selfish, stupid, naive, yes, but "ruthless" is not the way to describe it. It's not like Sansa even suspected the consequences for what she did.

I guess I tend to not give children as much benefit of the doubt as some, mostly because most children I know are pretty ruthless, in the sense that they want what they want when they want it, irregardless of other people's needs or desires, and will frequently go to great lengths to get it. It my experience it takes a great deal of training and discipline to teach them they can't always have it. I tend to see the blabbing to Cersei in this light: she wanted something her father wasn't going to let her have and she went and tried to take it anyway. In this sense she reminds me a great deal of her aunt, actually. Lysa has been described by Jaime as being shy as a girl, in the same section in which he said Catelyn was "more interesting", probably because she had a more forceful personality, but Lysa nevertheless has been shown at times to be pretty efficient at getting what she wants. She wasn't allowed to have Petyr as a girl, but she still went ahead and slept with him, and when she had a chance to kill Jon Arryn so she could be with Petyr again she took it. I don't think Sansa is so morally compromised as to poison anyone yet, but then I doubt was Lysa either as a young girl.

I suppose that's what makes me curious. Is Sansa going to end up like her aunt, using the skills LF is teaching her purely to keep herself alive / promote her own position?

So, Sansa lied and condemned Marillion and protected LF with this. I don't blame her or think this to be ruthless; she did what she had to for her survival and Marillion actually had it coming. Even so, she clearly was conflicted about the lies she told and the fate of Marillion and would have liked to avoid it if possible.

I agree in that what she did at the time she did in order to survive. Circumstances change, however. When she went to greet the Lords Declarent she could have, as Petyr's "daughter", thrown herself on their mercy and ratted him out. She didn't, though -- possibly because she still thinks her survival is dependent on Petyr, or possibly because she had grown to like her role. Possibly it didn't even occur to her to do so, though -- I think she is loyal to Petyr now, whether he deserves loyalty or not, and she seems increasingly willing to accept his morally ambiguous direction.

I don't think we call, say, Robb Stark ruthless when he kills an enemy knight or men-at-arms in battle; this is much the same.

I would call Robb ruthless. Not for killing enemies in battle, but for the willingness he has to send friends and his own men-at-arms to die and disrupt the lives of thousands of innocent by-standers in order to establish his claim. Whether that's ruthlessness for a good purpose I guess depends on whether one thinks Robb's claim is legitimate or his rebellion against Joffrey is necessary.

If Sansa has a potential to be ruthless, then it is in her interactions with maester Colemon regarding Sweetrobyn's medication. Her "what's good for Robert the boy is not always good for Robert the lord of the Vale" does have a slight ruthless undercurrent, but as of yet she doesn't understand quite how dangerous the "sweetsleep", I think. After LF told her about his plans, maybe that will change or maybe she will get a ruthless streak and cooperate with poisoning Sweetrobyn. But she hasn't done so yet and it remains to see how she will react; in this one she has a choice and she could yet choose to listen to Colemon.

She could, yes, and it will be interesting to see where Martin takes this, once Sansa is at a point (like Arya was with Daerion) in which she has to make a choice that has a stronger effect on someone else's fate than it does hers.

[Lady Blackfish]

is the absence of male characters who are devoted to an unattainable woman in the courtly love tradition of medieval literature.

Quite a curious statement. I found the exact opposite when reading ASOIAF; the male devotion to unattainable women is overwhelming. In addition to Jorah (who does it twice, to both Lynesse and Dany ... Jesus Christ, that man ...) and Sandor there is Littlefinger, Robert, and two POV's, Tyrion and Jaime. I also think it informs the dynamic between Arys Oakheart and Arianne Martell, whose sexual interlude was a nice microcosm of those general dynamics. The female idealization of males is absolutely dwarfed from where I sit. Sansa does it a bit, and Cersei, but the very ethos of the culture, and the narrative style it informs, overwhelmingly asymmetrically features the male idealization of women.

[zuziako]

If there was less sexism, Cersei probably would have less pent up insanity and aggression, and may have raised her son to be a saner person. Sometimes I think she lived through Joffrey... The reason, I think, that Cersei was so damn ambitious was that she could not inherit her father's land and titles, and got so frustrated about it she thought, "Fine, poohead! I'm going to get my share somehow!" especially after not hooking up with Rhaegar like she wanted. "Fine, dad! If you can't get me the hot guys I want, I'LL GET THEM MYSELF! I'm awesome."

I simply think Cersei never had a skill for motherhood. Not that she didn't love her children, because she did (maybe too much), but in general she concentrated on Joffrey, spoiled him to bits and kind of neglected the other two (she can't even stand Tommen saying anything bad about Joff). Cersei, in her perfect world, would have been a man, with all the right and glory that comes with being a highborn male. Her desire for that comes from Jamie, whom she regarded as part of herself, her reflection in the mirror. Suddenly Jamie can decide for himself, and she can't. He gets a sword and she gets noting. That must have been soo frustrating.

Interestingly enough, she makes everyone think she's strong but even Joffrey knows that's not true. He says at the end of GoT that he knows his mother just acts strong, but is fragile inside. Such a remark. From Joffrey!

[Seerow]

I agree in that what she did at the time she did in order to survive. Circumstances change, however. When she went to greet the Lords Declarent she could have, as Petyr's "daughter", thrown herself on their mercy and ratted him out. She didn't, though -- possibly because she still thinks her survival is dependent on Petyr, or possibly because she had grown to like her role. Possibly it didn't even occur to her to do so, though -- I think she is loyal to Petyr now, whether he deserves loyalty or not, and she seems increasingly willing to accept his morally ambiguous direction.

Actually, it did occur to her to do exactly what you suggest. She considers exposing herself to Yohn Royce I believe it was, and after thinking about it decides that doing so would not get her out of anything and would possibly make things worse.

[Seerow]

Edit: Double Post

[Wouter]

It my experience it takes a great deal of training and discipline to teach them they can't always have it. I tend to see the blabbing to Cersei in this light: she wanted something her father wasn't going to let her have and she went and tried to take it anyway. In this sense she reminds me a great deal of her aunt, actually. Lysa has been described by Jaime as being shy as a girl, in the same section in which he said Catelyn was "more interesting", probably because she had a more forceful personality, but Lysa nevertheless has been shown at times to be pretty efficient at getting what she wants. She wasn't allowed to have Petyr as a girl, but she still went ahead and slept with him, and when she had a chance to kill Jon Arryn so she could be with Petyr again she took it. I don't think Sansa is so morally compromised as to poison anyone yet, but then I doubt was Lysa either as a young girl.

I suppose that's what makes me curious. Is Sansa going to end up like her aunt, using the skills LF is teaching her purely to keep herself alive / promote her own position?

I don't think so. Lysa's personality is quite different from Sansa's, IMO (and judging by the limited info we have on Lysa). Lysa seems to harbour grudges, is pretty violent in her reactions, easily resents people for no good reasons and she isn't subtle either. Granted, she may have been different when young, but the jealousy she seems to have in spades was probably already there even then. Having said that, Lysa was treated badly by her father and getting married to Jon Arryn was not what she wanted. She didn't even truly get Petyr, in the end, never had him even. As bad as Lysa was by the time AGOT comes around, in some ways she's pretty tragic.

I agree in that what she did at the time she did in order to survive. Circumstances change, however. When she went to greet the Lords Declarent she could have, as Petyr's "daughter", thrown herself on their mercy and ratted him out. She didn't, though -- possibly because she still thinks her survival is dependent on Petyr, or possibly because she had grown to like her role. Possibly it didn't even occur to her to do so, though -- I think she is loyal to Petyr now, whether he deserves loyalty or not, and she seems increasingly willing to accept his morally ambiguous direction.

Sansa's second AFFC chapter actually spells this out explictly for us: Sansa specifically thinks about throwing herself at the feet of Lord Yohn Royce (she doesn't know and trust the other lord declarants, with good reason we learn one chapter later when half of them are already in LF's pocket). However, she decides against it, with this reasoning (paraphrased): "he didn't even come to Robb's aid when he was winning in his war - why would he help me now?". Sansa is also afraid in this chapter and not certain if Bronze Yohn would even recognise her. Earlier on, she tries to convice LF to give up the Vale to the lords declarant and take Harrenhal (now legally owned by LF) but he is having none of it (and quite rightfully for once, she would be recognised quickly in Harrenhal where Lannister and Reach men are passing left and right). Sansa is also focused on hiding who she is, both because she fears for her own safety and for a war in the Vale. She doesn't want the confrontation with the lords, but in the end she doesn't dare but go along with LF (who, it has to be said, also does solve the problem bloodlessly this time).

I guess Bronze Yohn would have helped her (from my perspective as reader, we know Bronze Yohn pushed Lysa to go to war but Sansa doesn't know that), but he would also have had a war on his hands. If LF hadn't used her as a hostage to start with (assuming here LF would quickly react if he realised Sansa was attempting to leave the Eyrie with Bronze Yohn), the Royces would likely have become a target for the Lannister-Tyrell alliance quickly.

I would call Robb ruthless. Not for killing enemies in battle, but for the willingness he has to send friends and his own men-at-arms to die and disrupt the lives of thousands of innocent by-standers in order to establish his claim. Whether that's ruthlessness for a good purpose I guess depends on whether one thinks Robb's claim is legitimate or his rebellion against Joffrey is necessary.

In my opinion, a clear "yes" on both counts. Any leader of such a military force at war has to be ruthless to some extent, but Robb is easily the least ruthless of all the ruling kings/queens (leaving little Tommen aside), including Stannis and Renly IMO.