Sansa, Arya and feminism

[iamthedave]

This is probably the main difference between Sansa and Arya. I sense Arya has been written as a strong willed character. Sansa apologists might say that she has her own unique willpower in that she endured KL for so long. Well, she survived because of the pity of Tyrion and the Hound. Nothing of her own accord. And she was more apt to cry and feel sorry for herself.

Arya, who survived because Yoren took her under his wing and took her south, and later survived because The Hound took her prisoner, and is now under the tutelage of the Faceless Men.

I don't see much of her own accord there.

Arya's fans VASTLY overestimate her 'strong will' and her ability to survive 'on her own'. She spends almost her entire plotline either captured by someone who can protect her or under everyone's nose in a position where nobody looks at her twice (Harrenhal parts). And how lucky was she to avoid being 'tickled'?

It's just bias against Sansa because she's a girly girl, and is entirely because Arya is so much 'cooler'. If Arya had stayed at Kings Landing she'd have been dead or captured in no time.

But I care even if Arya talks to Quello King of Seals or whoever, simply because Arya is interesting by nature.

She is? I never noticed.

I keep reading these chapters involving this character who hasn't been involved in a single faintly important event for a book and a half and wondering why I'm bothering.

Sansa is at least on the periphery of the board and seems like to wind up in a position of power via marriage (either at the Vale or Winterfell). Arya, on the other hand...

*tumbleweed rolls by*

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Hah, I wonder how Arya escaped the Red Keep. She developed wings and flew?

[iamthedave]

Hah, I wonder how Arya escaped the Red Keep. She developed wings and flew?

No. Her teacher saved her from being immediately captured by four knights, giving her a chance to run. Yet again, she didn't do it alone, she had help.

I'm not saying she isn't cunning, smart, and resourceful, but the idea that she is some incredible survivalist alone against the world is utter rubbish. She's helped at every point.

And let's not forget that Arya gets the assistance of a super assassin at one point, which may be the single biggest bit of assistance any character gets in the entire series. It's certainly up there in the runnings, and if she'd been an older, wiser sort could have had massive implications to the story.

[Ser Pistus]

And let's not forget that Arya gets the assistance of a super assassin at one point, which may be the single biggest bit of assistance any character gets in the entire series.

I think you overestimate Jaqen's help to Arya. He does not save her, and the whole weasel soup incident changes practically nothing. And then Jaqen goes, and Arya stays in Harrenhal as a servant. She escapes on her own (with a little help from Gendry and Hot Pie).

[Color Slander]

So, what, another positive thread about both Sansa and Arya became another Sansa versus Arya, WHO IS DA BEST~*~*~*~ fight again?

Sansa apologists might say that she has her own unique willpower in that she endured KL for so long. Well, she survived because of the pity of Tyrion and the Hound.

I like that wording. "Sansa's apologists." It's a lot more subtle than fantard but still makes it seem like all Sansa fans are delusional and not subject to the higher thinking of Sansa rage. Sansa's a muddled character, she was created to be. She definitely has her faults, but she also has her positives, which is what GRRM likes to write. Pretending that she hasn't developed or there are no good points about her is, imo, disingenuous to her character and the point of her character.

Anyway, I don't buy the fact that she can't have her own unique willpower and survive because of help? I'm not going to pretend that she isn't a pawn. But to be fair, she's Littlefinger's pawn, and Littlefinger may as well be the chess master of the game at this point. She's not playing on a equal field, she's in King's Landing- the place of Tyrion, Tywin, Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, and the like. But the fact that Sansa can keep up emotionally at all, is remarkable.

Sansa would have died the minute she got into Arya's story. But the same goes for Arya. The minute she was a hostage she would have done something stupid or run her mouth, because of her strong will and lack of patience in political asshatery, and would have been killed. Sansa's a political intrigue story and Arya's is a survival story, both twisted in their own way.

[nukrow]

I know we are dealing with fiction and not history, but come on, in an historic sense Sansa is historically accurate!

There have been a few reported cases of women fighting in battles back around 1200 or so, I can think of one Irish woman, but the Arya character is impossible in a historic sense.

'Women fight their wars in the birthing bed' is pretty much a true statement.

[iamthedave]

I think you overestimate Jaqen's help to Arya. He does not save her, and the whole weasel soup incident changes practically nothing. And then Jaqen goes, and Arya stays in Harrenhal as a servant. She escapes on her own (with a little help from Gendry and Hot Pie).

I think that's more down to Arya misusing Jaqen rather than how much use he would have been had she used him well.

But yes, her actual escape from Harrenhal is on her own... but she only manages it because she's able to leverage the authority of Roose Bolton. She didn't need Gendry or Hot Pie to escape, but she did need Roose's unwitting assistance. If she had just been some random spod in the kitchens at that point, I don't think she could have gotten away at all (though I suppose she could have just run off into the night and hoped they couldn't be bothered to run her down).

[the andorran]

I think it's pretty obvious that GRRM included Arya and Sansa, young girls of two such disparate personalities, because they would each appeal to different readers. As evidenced by this thread being divided into "Arya is overrated" and "Sansa is boring" camps. It seems very deliberate, and my opinion is that both Sansa and Arya have a role to play in the series. Otherwise, why would so much time be spent on them? Law of Conservation of Detail definitely comes into play here.

Anyway, from the context of feminism, are we talking about the Stark girls as players in advancing feminism in Westeros (unlikely, that's not an issue in the series, and I doubt that it will end on a note of "hurray, less oppressive gender system!"), or feminist interpretations of their characters?

Keeping their ages in mind, I personally see both Arya and Sansa as victims of the rigidly oppressive gender roles and rape culture in Westeros. How often is Arya insulated from both gender expectations and sexual violence because she can pass as/is assumed to be a boy? You could probably write a pretty decent analysis of how her training as a Faceless Man is a final culmination of her desire to cast off her identity, particularly her gender identity.

As for Sansa, she's clearly more 'traditional' but that doesn't make her unfeminist. There's no weakness in traditionally female activities. Sansa has a character arc with more growth as she becomes poised to "be a player in the game." However, you have to remember that Sansa is very much a victim, both of her culture and of how it's ingrained in her. She has made mistakes, yes, but she's been consistently used and mistreated, politically, emotionally, and sexually. Because she has always accepted the gender expectations foisted upon her, Sansa has fewer options about what to do about her situation. Ned also fostered her interests -- sewing, music, poetry -- where he encouraged Arya in skills that would be far more useful in this wartorn setting.

Lastly, I'd like to say that there's no shame in either Sansa or Arya having needed help in the past. Every person needs some assistance now and then, and they both got it when they needed it. Self-sufficiency is overrated.

[Brienne the Beauty]

but the Arya character is impossible in a historic sense.

It was not unknown for girls or women to disguise themselves as boys or men and join up with the army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Barry_(surgeon)

The description in wikipedia of "his" strong will, short temper and insubordinate tendencies reminds me of Arya somewhat.

[nukrow]

It was not unknown for girls or women to disguise themselves as boys or men and join up with the army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Barry_(surgeon)

The description in wikipedia of "his" strong will, short temper and insubordinate tendencies reminds me of Arya somewhat.

In todays combat, all you have to do is pull a trigger. Back in soiaf times, upper body strength meant a lot, you'd use it to defend yourself with a shield say or hack your enemies to death with an ax.

Like I pointed out, there were reports of a few women in battle back around 1200, but it was extremely rare. And even in your example, a medical surgeon is not a man at arms, the physical requirements are different.

[Brienne the Beauty]

In todays combat, all you have to do is pull a trigger. Back in soiaf times, upper body strength meant a lot, you'd use it to defend yourself with a shield say or hack your enemies to death with an ax.

That's not the kind of combat Arya engages in. She's not a Brienne-style fighter. Her style is to kill people before they even know they are in a fight.

[the andorran]

In todays combat, all you have to do is pull a trigger. Back in soiaf times, upper body strength meant a lot, you'd use it to defend yourself with a shield say or hack your enemies to death with an ax.

Like I pointed out, there were reports of a few women in battle back around 1200, but it was extremely rare. And even in your example, a medical surgeon is not a man at arms, the physical requirements are different.

There are historical examples. What of Boudica?

A look at this Wikipedia page will show you that women warriors are a popular and enduring feature in storytelling. Arya is a deconstruction/variation on them. Certainly, I would balk at a girl of her age riding out into battle in full armor, but I don't recall that ever happening?

[mcb]

She tells Cersei of Ned's plans to send his daughters home NOW and tell Robert about the incest. IIrc Cersei once mentions how important that information was for her

Yes, if Sansa hadn't told Cersei about the planned escape, she and Arya could possibly leave KL. Regardless, Ned would still proceed with his plan. And he had told Littlefinger about them. And Cersei.

I'm not a native english-speaker so excuse my hard time to make things clear here.

A lot of those novels (take Earthsea, the novels by E. Lynn, Alanna for example) feature a main hero that has attributes which in modern life and western civilizations would make for a reason of discrimination. At least until recently. Now in those novels it is described how you can be the saviour of the world DESPITE being female, dark-skinned or whatever. I don't think it should be "Despite" - those authors lay too much importance to those singled-out attributes.

Hardly. I don't remember Ursula Le Guin really putting any emphasis on Ged's skin color. Yes, he's a "man of color", living among other "people of color". Just as Koriba in "Kirinyaga" is an African, living in an African village. Neither has to battle white man's racism for the sake of the plot. Being "colored" is a handicap only if you live in a racist environment.

And, BTW, "Earthsea" is from the 60s/70s, not the eighties.

Never heard of E. Lynn. Who is he/she?

[Theano]

I love both characters equally. Sorry, no fighting from me.

Arya is a spunky girl willing to fight her own battles (including using others like Jaqen as weapons), she's got a huge personality, she says what she thinks, and is chock full of courage. She's spent years standing up for who she is at home, trying to become who she is despite her mother and the Septa trying to mold her into someone else. She already knows that people may have plans for her that don't match up to what she wants for herself, and she's been fighting that battle for years even before the story starts. I like her character for those reasons.

I like Sansa because she's a gentle girl who always tries to see the best in everyone. She's willing to forgive others, and trusts easily--maybe too easily, but she doesn't have a lot of experience in being betrayed. Maybe if everyone was willing to treat people as gently as she is, the world might be a bit better. She behaves in the way she wants other people to behave, and I think she affects more than just the Hound through this behavior (like poor, slightly creepy Ser Dontos). She may be more hesitant, but it took a great deal of courage for her to go to the godswood that first time. Everyone talks about how great her line was to Joffrey about Robb giving her Joffrey's head, but I really loved her "How long do I have to look?" She's got the Stark coldness, which I love about her. As for her intelligence--well, after all, she's the only character who knows that she actually is a character in a story... ;)

[Early Earl]

Hardly. I don't remember Ursula Le Guin really putting any emphasis on Ged's skin color. Yes, he's a "man of color", living among other "people of color". Just as Koriba in "Kirinyaga" is an African, living in an African village. Neither has to battle white man's racism for the sake of the plot. Being "colored" is a handicap only if you live in a racist environment.

And, BTW, "Earthsea" is from the 60s/70s, not the eighties.

Never heard of E. Lynn. Who is he/she?

LeGuinn comments on color here:

http://www.ursulakleguin.com/GedoSenkiResponse.html

(it's a chapter at the end of the article)

You are right about the other points though. I apologize for somewhat inaccurate research/evidence. I may have done so for keeping the argument alive.

what I've learned mostly of that topic becoming a Sansa vs Arya thread (instead Sansa&Arya vs/pro portraits of political views) is, that GRRM writes well enough to let both kinds of roles appear valid. So he apparently doesnt take a stand in this discussion which is fine with me. I just wondered what others think by being shown two opposite female "role models".

P.S.: E. Lynn is a fantasy author who wrote this

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I like that wording. "Sansa's apologists." It's a lot more subtle than fantard but still makes it seem like all Sansa fans are delusional and not subject to the higher thinking of Sansa rage.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. How could I mean anything else? :rolleyes:

Thank you for deconstructing my thinking.

[trio]

If my theory about Sansa showing "the average noble girl" is one reason she's still included in the series, then I think the 2nd reason is GRRM's need to show LF's machinations without actually giving LF a POV.

POVs have many positives, but a negative is that the character loses their inscrutability and to a certain extent, their unpredictability.

So yea or nay? Sansa = a story device who's main purpose is to show us LF's activities?

[Brienne the Beauty]

So yea or nay? Sansa = a story device who's main purpose is to show us LF's activities?

I don't think characters in this story are ever pure plot devices. They are meant to be interesting in their own right.

Before Sansa went off with Littlefinger, she was largely an eye on the court, with more of a moral compass than Tyrion (who quite enjoys the machinations.) From her point of view we see how depraved the nobles of King's Landing really are.

[Eaglewood]

I think a lot of this discussion is silly.

Both are excellent characters (there really isn't a bad Stark character except maybe Rickon, who we honestly don't know enough about) but they appeal to different things in people.

I'm personally a bigger fan of Sansa then Arya because Arya chapters just come off as so easy to write. Give a wise-beyond-her-years-funny-clever-little girl-who-likes-to-fight-with-swords a good setting and a good supporting cast and well... it's a good read. That is why we have so many chapters of Arya running in circles around the Riverlands (two books worth actually) where she accomplishes as little Sansa does -- withher biggest "achievement" in that time actually being done by asking for a man who has been protecting her to make her weasel soup. It's not realistic in the slightest but it is entertaining fluff.

Sansa also took me a second re-read to appreciate and now I like her character a lot more than Arya. The character stands on her own without needing apology. She is EXACTLY how a real pre-teen, teen girl acts at the start of the series - unrealistic, dreaming of pop-star teen knights and princes without really understanding what it means. But as the series progresses she survives and adapts in the environment she is trapped in. She progresses, grows, and never losses her humanity. I really hope she becomes a Littlefinger level of Game of Thrones player- for good. She could do a lot more good for the realm than Arya running around blind with a sword.

One last note:

Arya wouldn't have lasted ten seconds in the Red Keep. Joff would have been off with that head in a second. And Sansa wouldn't have lasted out on the road either. GRRM put them both in the environments they could survive in.

[Alexia]

So yea or nay? Sansa = a story device who's main purpose is to show us LF's activities?

Nay, she doesn't show us LF's activities until the fourth book of a seven book series, and in that book she had the least amount of chapters of any of the books in which she's been featured.

Sansa is a primary character who will end up having some sort of effect on the overall plot and ending of the story. We don't know what that is yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that she'll be key to something.

Incidentally, while I agree that AFFC put her into a holding pattern - I don't think that was intended prior to the dropping of the five year gap. I think she was meant to come out swinging in one way or another, but she is one of the characters who did not need the time period of the gap shown, and thus it really hurt her when GRRM switched gears. GRRM did say that the child characters would have benefited the most from the gap.