Sansa, Arya and feminism

[the andorran]

@Eagelwood, I definitely agree with your assessment of Sansa and Arya, and that GRRM put them in settings where they could survive. What Sansa has been through takes a different kind of strength from what Arya has been through, and I don't think that one or the other is worth more. Personally, I tend to slightly prefer Sansa's story arc, but it's just a matter of personal preference.

However, I will note that Sansa is a POV character, and she's a POV character for a reason. All POV characters are "plot devices" is the sense that they do (or should) serve a purpose in the story. Right now, Sansa's purpose is clearer to me than Arya's is. I'm really unsure of where Arya is going.

[Martyn Martell]

I disagree.

Sansa' development is much wider, she grows emotionally, socially and gets a knowledge and experience about the "game of thrones", which added to her intelligence (and she's much more intelligent than Arya apparently) makes her actually a "Littlefinger in making".

Arya on the other hand is becoming an outcast, she couldn't ever become a real player of the game; her chapters are still fun to read, but she's mostly developing her skills, she's still the same Arya from the beginning of the series, only much more experienced.

I disagree with your belief that Sansa's development is much wider. From the beginning she is a spoiled, self-centered airhead who spends her time dreaming about knights and romance. Everyone else in the family knows how Ned and the Starks feel about the Lannisters including siblings younger than Sansa. That is because Sansa is tuned out instead of tuned in like Arya. She is a snob who looks down on Jon and doesn't even think about Arya when the Starks fall. She is all into herself. As the story evolves, she plays the poor little me role and always has some man looking out for her. At the end, she is being cared for and lead by Littlefinger. Perhaps she may now be seeing him for what he is but in the past she has had no insight into the true nature of people but instead has been impressed by their titles. All the Stark children thought Joffrey was awful except for her. Arya could see what was happening in King's Landing while Sansa believes Cersei is wonderful and wants to dance and go to tournaments while Arya see how her father is suffering in his role.

Arya, on the other hand, did escape the queen when her father was killed and has managed to survive the horrors of war and learned how war destroys the common people as well as knights. While Sansa has seen one battle, Arya has survived imprisonment, life on the road during war times, hunger, seeing others tortured and killed. She has mainly taken care of herself. She has learned to look with her eyes and truly see events and people for what they are. She is open to new people and new places. She has made a trip over the seas and found a means of survival in a new land. Yes, she is angry but each day she get up and gets on with life, relying on herself and no whining about it. I expect much more to come from her. I don't think she will lose Arya Stark of Winterfell. Sansa, on the other hand, will probably fall into Littlefinger's plans even though she knows he is evil because she will always need someone to take care of her.

[Free Northman]

Sansa would have died the minute she got into Arya's story. But the same goes for Arya. The minute she was a hostage she would have done something stupid or run her mouth, because of her strong will and lack of patience in political asshatery, and would have been killed.

But there you have the difference between the two. Arya would have died if she was in Sansa's position, yes. But she would have died HER WAY (Frank Sinatra in the background).

Surviving isn't everything. Refusing to be bowed or broken is what should be valued. If you die for it, so be it.

I seem to recall some House actually has "Unbowed, unbroken" as their motto.

I like that.

Sansa on the other hand is meek and pliable. And THAT is intolerable.

[Martyn Martell]

Arya, who survived because Yoren took her under his wing and took her south, and later survived because The Hound took her prisoner, and is now under the tutelage of the Faceless Men.

I don't see much of her own accord there.

Arya's fans VASTLY overestimate her 'strong will' and her ability to survive 'on her own'. She spends almost her entire plotline either captured by someone who can protect her or under everyone's nose in a position where nobody looks at her twice (Harrenhal parts). And how lucky was she to avoid being 'tickled'?

It's just bias against Sansa because she's a girly girl, and is entirely because Arya is so much 'cooler'. If Arya had stayed at Kings Landing she'd have been dead or captured in no time.

She is? I never noticed.

I keep reading these chapters involving this character who hasn't been involved in a single faintly important event for a book and a half and wondering why I'm bothering.

Sansa is at least on the periphery of the board and seems like to wind up in a position of power via marriage (either at the Vale or Winterfell). Arya, on the other hand...

*tumbleweed rolls by*

Perhaps the difficulty here is that for you the big issue in the book is the actual fight for the throne rather than the people who get caught in that battle whether or not they want to be. To me, this is much more a combination of a "coming of age" story in which several young people are thrown into demanding circumstances and must decide who and what they are. Even older folks have to again determine what is worth living or dying for and how one behaves in that quest for survival. Yes, Yoren initially took Arya but she would not have been captured except for the action of her companions after Yoren is killed. She is captured the second time by folks she should have been able to trust and when she and the Hound have their big fight at the inn, she is the one who makes two of the three kills.

[Color Slander]

Surviving isn't everything. Refusing to be bowed or broken is what should be valued. If you die for it, so be it.

I seem to recall some House actually has "Unbowed, unbroken" as their motto.

But Arya isn't unbroken, Arya has been developing violent and worrisome tendencies during her journey. She's not just the survival girl, she's a deconstruction of the survival girl. Everything she does in understandable, but when she does it, there are moments when you can see she didn't make it out all alright, like the time when she almost hysterically stabs her enemies over and over again.

And as noble as it is, Arya would still be dead. Just a noble corpse like her father. Arya's perfect how she plays her own survival game, she's a bit heroic, a bit rutheless, and tows the line between violence and stark. But she would never learn the court because she doesn't know how to temper herself when it comes to anything but fighting. It takes just as much skill to navigate a battlefield as to navigate the court. Afterall, it's not exactly a battlefield that killed her father and brother, it was politics.

Sansa, however, tows the line of innocence/naivete and cynicism. She knows how to survive in a political world, and even if it isn't as romantic as Arya's story- it still what she's good at. Sansa is the only Stark story that touches nothing with mysticism and magic, everything she experiences is straight political backstabbing and double dealing. It's not fantasy, it's suppose to mimic a harsh reality of the Middle Ages. And she works it the same way any woman of the court is suppose to work it.

I don't necessarily think she's meek, although she's definitely not take charge. But she's adapted to the circumstances as best as anyone can. The only other option for her is to 1. die and that's not the point of her story or 2. Become Cersei. She can't do much else. That's the whole point of Sansa's story, her life isn't romantic and it isn't song.

[Iotun]

I disagree with your belief that Sansa's development is much wider. From the beginning she is a spoiled, self-centered airhead who spends her time dreaming about knights and romance. Everyone else in the family knows how Ned and the Starks feel about the Lannisters including siblings younger than Sansa. That is because Sansa is tuned out instead of tuned in like Arya. She is a snob who looks down on Jon and doesn't even think about Arya when the Starks fall. She is all into herself. As the story evolves, she plays the poor little me role and always has some man looking out for her. At the end, she is being cared for and lead by Littlefinger. Perhaps she may now be seeing him for what he is but in the past she has had no insight into the true nature of people but instead has been impressed by their titles. All the Stark children thought Joffrey was awful except for her. Arya could see what was happening in King's Landing while Sansa believes Cersei is wonderful and wants to dance and go to tournaments while Arya see how her father is suffering in his role.

Arya, on the other hand, did escape the queen when her father was killed and has managed to survive the horrors of war and learned how war destroys the common people as well as knights. While Sansa has seen one battle, Arya has survived imprisonment, life on the road during war times, hunger, seeing others tortured and killed. She has mainly taken care of herself. She has learned to look with her eyes and truly see events and people for what they are. She is open to new people and new places. She has made a trip over the seas and found a means of survival in a new land. Yes, she is angry but each day she get up and gets on with life, relying on herself and no whining about it. I expect much more to come from her. I don't think she will lose Arya Stark of Winterfell. Sansa, on the other hand, will probably fall into Littlefinger's plans even though she knows he is evil because she will always need someone to take care of her.

I think you're confusing the term 'character development'. Its not so much about the sheer number and diversity of situations that a character goes through - but how their internal personality and world view changes. Yes, Arya travels all over the place, and had to survive all kinds of situations, whereas Sansa has been stuck in King's landing for most of the series. Fact is, Arya essentially remains the same Arya as she is in the start of the story - yes the amount of 'content' in her head - experiences and knowledge - is larger, but the 'processing engine' is still the same. She is still the tomboy, independent, outcast, headstrong, resourceful. Her though process doesn't change as such, even if the things she has to process do.

Sansa on the other hand by the end of aFfC is completely different than the Sansa at the start of GoT, and in many ways her predicament has been much worse than that of Arya. It may be that Sansa is much more limited in the situations she faces, but the way she thinks about them changes completely.

As an aside, I always find it fascinating that the series can generate such discussions - and especially with the TV show now on, I think its a series that can really generate some though on gender issues. Martin creates a world in which gender relations are really different than in our societies, and then lets us look how a wealth of different characters navigate this world - Sansa and Arya, but also Cercei, Dany, Brienne, Asha, Catelyn and Lysa, etc.

It is also interesting how so much of the tragedy that we see in Westeros comes about due to the enforced gender roles and relationships, as well as the general conservative role of society. For example:

- Cercei is forced to marry a man she does not love, and has no way of getting out of that marriage leading to all kinds of bitterness and resentment on her part, and the increasing development of her relationship with Jaime (one could imagine that if Cercei could have gone into a happy marriage, her playing around with Jaime in their youth could have been left behind as youthful folly).

- Assuming speculation on Rheagar and Lyana is true, Lyana has to marry a man she does not want (in GoT in fact, Ned remember a conversation he had with Lyanna in which he tells him that Robert will never be truthful), who considers it his right that he should have her. Similarly we can assume Elia had to marry Rheagar for similar political reasons.

- Neither Catelyn nor Lysa are allowed to marry Littlefinger as he is below their status, and are instead forced into marriages with strangers (regardless of the fact that at least one of those marriages turn alright, and even though at least one of the true daughters really wanted LF), leading to the actions of both Lysa and Littlefinger, and the consequences these have on the realm (which should be obvious).

-Similarly Tysha is punished for marrying a man above her station, shaping Tyrion for the rest of his life, and making him to take the actions he does at the end of SoS.

- Theon decides to take over Winterfell as a show of his abilities because he is incapable of accepting that his father favors his sister, a woman, over him as his heir.

And in much less dramatic fashion, so many of the characters are shaped as individuals because of their experiences with the gender relationships that are defined for them by society - Dany in the khaleesi role defined for her by Dothraki society, Brienne, Jon by being shamed of his relationship with Ygritte, and of course, Arya and Sansa.

[Knight of the Laurel]

Sansa gets a lot more interesting in AFFC where she starts becoming more her own person under the tutelage of Littlefinger, IMHO. Until then, she's kind of a passive victim whose actions are mostly wrong-headed (i.e. confiding in Cersei) and who is mostly a foil for more interesting characters (Joffrey, the Hound, Cersei, Tyrion).

Arya is funny and lively and gets to do cool things, just like a boy in a fantasy novel. It's notable that when she spends time with Sandor Clegane, they almost become a team for a while, with Arya making meaningful decisions.

I do get tired of the consistent trope of female characters making disastrous decisions or getting emotionally manipulated without any self-awareness, see Catelyn, Cersei, Brienne, Sansa, Lysa.

There are some fairly sensible, healthy female characters in the story who don't get much face time or a POV: Myrcella, for example, who's more fit to rule than either of her brothers; Margery Tyrell; Olenna Queen of Thorns. And there's Asha Greyjoy, Osha, and Ygritte who are both tough and sensible but are clearly minor characters. I wish one of them had a bigger role in the ongoing story.

For that matter, we've got no end of heroic priests and monks and septons but every septa we meet is described as old, sour, and ugly.

[Wouter]

I love both characters equally. Sorry, no fighting from me.

Arya is a spunky girl willing to fight her own battles (including using others like Jaqen as weapons), she's got a huge personality, she says what she thinks, and is chock full of courage. She's spent years standing up for who she is at home, trying to become who she is despite her mother and the Septa trying to mold her into someone else. She already knows that people may have plans for her that don't match up to what she wants for herself, and she's been fighting that battle for years even before the story starts. I like her character for those reasons.

I like Sansa because she's a gentle girl who always tries to see the best in everyone. She's willing to forgive others, and trusts easily--maybe too easily, but she doesn't have a lot of experience in being betrayed. Maybe if everyone was willing to treat people as gently as she is, the world might be a bit better. She behaves in the way she wants other people to behave, and I think she affects more than just the Hound through this behavior (like poor, slightly creepy Ser Dontos). She may be more hesitant, but it took a great deal of courage for her to go to the godswood that first time. Everyone talks about how great her line was to Joffrey about Robb giving her Joffrey's head, but I really loved her "How long do I have to look?" She's got the Stark coldness, which I love about her. As for her intelligence--well, after all, she's the only character who knows that she actually is a character in a story... ;)

Great post! :thumbsup:

I also liked the "how long do I have to look" - exactly the way Sansa resists people, giving them what they want but somehow turning it into a mockery. Similar to her behaviour as forced wife of Tyrion (I like Tyrion well enough but still, in that case he kinda got what he deserved and even realised it himself to some extent).

[Wouter]

Nay, she doesn't show us LF's activities until the fourth book of a seven book series, and in that book she had the least amount of chapters of any of the books in which she's been featured.

Sansa is a primary character who will end up having some sort of effect on the overall plot and ending of the story. We don't know what that is yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that she'll be key to something.

Agreed, we have seen more of Littlefinger through Ned's and Tyrion's eyes than through Sansa - and he doesn't tell her even all that much in AFFC.

I also wonder what GRRM has planned for her - she was a POV right from the start and I think she is quite important in the story, less so than Dany, Jon, Tyrion and maybe Bran and Arya but ahead of other POV characters. Sansa knows a lot of the southron nobility and is diplomatic; if I had to make a guess I would say she may be the first (known) Stark to come into contact with Dany and to infuence her.

Sansa on the other hand is meek and pliable. And THAT is intolerable.

Really? And that for a girl of 11-13? :shocked:

Perhaps the difficulty here is that for you the big issue in the book is the actual fight for the throne rather than the people who get caught in that battle whether or not they want to be. To me, this is much more a combination of a "coming of age" story in which several young people are thrown into demanding circumstances and must decide who and what they are. Even older folks have to again determine what is worth living or dying for and how one behaves in that quest for survival.

Good point; the struggle for the iron throne is interesting but it is not the whole point of the story, even when we forget about the others for a moment. How Davos, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Gendry, Edric Storm,... end up and how they are touched by everything interests me just as much.

Sansa is the only Stark story that touches nothing with mysticism and magic, everything she experiences is straight political backstabbing and double dealing. It's not fantasy, it's suppose to mimic a harsh reality of the Middle Ages. And she works it the same way any woman of the court is suppose to work it.

Agreed, allthough I wonder how long Sansa's story will remain free of magic. Sansa is a warg like her siblings, and so far she has done nothing with it. I suspect that will change before the end of the series. All the other Starks also seem to have prophetic dreams/visions (beside warg dreams), Sansa will probably also show signs of this - maybe she did with the castle in the skies (2 castles becoming one, then becoming a ruin).

[Boheme]

It is also interesting how so much of the tragedy that we see in Westeros comes about due to the enforced gender roles and relationships, as well as the general conservative role of society. For example:

- Cercei is forced to marry a man she does not love, and has no way of getting out of that marriage leading to all kinds of bitterness and resentment on her part, and the increasing development of her relationship with Jaime (one could imagine that if Cercei could have gone into a happy marriage, her playing around with Jaime in their youth could have been left behind as youthful folly).

- Assuming speculation on Rheagar and Lyana is true, Lyana has to marry a man she does not want (in GoT in fact, Ned remember a conversation he had with Lyanna in which he tells him that Robert will never be truthful), who considers it his right that he should have her. Similarly we can assume Elia had to marry Rheagar for similar political reasons.

- Neither Catelyn nor Lysa are allowed to marry Littlefinger as he is below their status, and are instead forced into marriages with strangers (regardless of the fact that at least one of those marriages turn alright, and even though at least one of the true daughters really wanted LF), leading to the actions of both Lysa and Littlefinger, and the consequences these have on the realm (which should be obvious).

-Similarly Tysha is punished for marrying a man above her station, shaping Tyrion for the rest of his life, and making him to take the actions he does at the end of SoS.

- Theon decides to take over Winterfell as a show of his abilities because he is incapable of accepting that his father favors his sister, a woman, over him as his heir.

And in much less dramatic fashion, so many of the characters are shaped as individuals because of their experiences with the gender relationships that are defined for them by society - Dany in the khaleesi role defined for her by Dothraki society, Brienne, Jon by being shamed of his relationship with Ygritte, and of course, Arya and Sansa.

Very good points! I'd add Rob to that list of Westeros Tragedies, since he married for love/honor, outside of the political arrangement he had with the Freys, it cost him the war and his life. It's interesting that Catelyn arranged Rob's future marriage and paid equally for his decision.

[Wouter]

Catelyn made some mistakes but overall she definitely was one of the more sensible characters in ASOIAF. Not a good player of the game, no, but then few outide LF and Varys are. Robb probably made more mistakes than she did.

[Timbits]

Yes, Arya travels all over the place, and had to survive all kinds of situations, whereas Sansa has been stuck in King's landing for most of the series. Fact is, Arya essentially remains the same Arya as she is in the start of the story - yes the amount of 'content' in her head - experiences and knowledge - is larger, but the 'processing engine' is still the same. She is still the tomboy, independent, outcast, headstrong, resourceful. Her though process doesn't change as such, even if the things she has to process do.

I completely disagree with this. Arya is one of the characters in asoiaf that has changed the most due to her hard circumstances, but she essentially remains the same person as she didn't get a brain transplant.

Arya is a very sensitive person, which is not always noted by people since she's a tomboy. She's quick to feel bad and guilty, and might I add a pretty damn compassionate person, even to the common folk which is rare among the highborn. After witnessing her father's murder she becomes quite angry, less trusting, you know the usual. And after living in a land that has been effected by war, killing is now a solution, sort of a kill or be killed world. If you compare AGOT and ASOS her thought process is different: She was a very innocent sweet kid before, who loved her father dearly and played with swords for fun, but now she's just trying to survive by living off her desire for vengeance.

One of the most interesting character in the series in my opinion, she could be a completely separate book on her own.

[Iotun]

I completely disagree with this. Arya is one of the characters in asoiaf that has changed the most due to her hard circumstances, but she essentially remains the same person as she didn't get a brain transplant.

Arya is a very sensitive person, which is not always noted by people since she's a tomboy. She's quick to feel bad and guilty, and might I add a pretty damn compassionate person, even to the common folk which is rare among the highborn. After witnessing her father's murder she becomes quite angry, less trusting, you know the usual. And after living in a land that has been effected by war, killing is now a solution, sort of a kill or be killed world. If you compare AGOT and ASOS her thought process is different: She was a very innocent sweet kid before, who loved her father dearly and played with swords for fun, but now she's just trying to survive by living off her desire for vengeance.

One of the most interesting character in the series in my opinion, she could be a completely separate book on her own.

Well I don't agree, but your post had me thinking, there's so many characters who under other circumstances and lesser authors, their journeys could have been entire books on their own. Hell, with the length of the series, if you take each character's chapters on their own many are already at book length. Makes what Martin's done seem even more incredible.

[Black Sheep]

So yea or nay? Sansa = a story device who's main purpose is to show us LF's activities?

Arya=a story device who's main purpose to show us the small tragedies that war creates, and she needed some badassery because walking around and talking to people is boring (see Brienne)

Also, Jaime=a story device who's main purpose is to show us Jaime's thoughts.

[Knight of the Laurel]

Arya=a story device who's main purpose to show us the small tragedies that war creates, and she needed some badassery because walking around and talking to people is boring (see Brienne)

I like Arya, but yeah. She seems to hit each and every sad weird situation in the Riverlands without ever reaching a point where she wants to stay someplace for a while or actually gets hurt or killed. Arya's the Forrest Gump of Westeros!

Also, Jaime=a story device who's main purpose is to show us Jaime's thoughts.

On re-reading, I thought Jaime's story arc is actually quite well done. He starts off as a literal golden boy and, at some point, looks around and realizes that everything's a lot more complicated than he thought. He also keeps us updated on all his family members.

[Lady Blackfish]

I do get tired of the consistent trope of female characters making disastrous decisions or getting emotionally manipulated without any self-awareness, see Catelyn, Cersei, Brienne, Sansa, Lysa.

There are some fairly sensible, healthy female characters in the story who don't get much face time or a POV: Myrcella, for example, who's more fit to rule than either of her brothers; Margery Tyrell; Olenna Queen of Thorns. And there's Asha Greyjoy, Osha, and Ygritte who are both tough and sensible but are clearly minor characters. I wish one of them had a bigger role in the ongoing story.

I imagine if we saw minor characters more closely or for longer, we'd see more flaws and questionable choices and a more obvious lack of (unrealistic) total omniscience. Seems silly to me to compare major vs minor characters, minor characters usually serve different narrative goals (colorful plot devices, representations of major characters' dilemmas, etc).

[Eaglewood]

I'll second the post that mentioned we have no idea where Arya story is going. Of the main protagonists her story feels the most up in the air to me. It could end in so many ways, most of them tragic unfortunately.

On the other hand Sansa seems to have a much clearer character trajectory (being taught by Littlefinger, outsmarting him, and un-doing many of the injustices he caused).

[Manfryd Lothston]

GRRM instead gives us pretty rounded up chrackterizations of those two girls while also making them stereotypes:

Sansa is the needle-working, pretty, polite little girl that (at first) doesnt intrude in the men's world and just behaves like a nice little accesoire (just as my prince commands).

Arya is a rebellious, "needle"-working girl with a mind of her own. Just like Brienne she would be disapproved of, once she grew up, basically because she doesnt bow to the male domination of that time.

"Stereotype" is just a modern buzzword which does not do any kind of justice to Martin's complex characers. Neither Arya nor Sansa is any kind of "stereotype", and I'd warn you against using this bubblehead-speak lightly.

My personal opinion is that people looking for "political connotations" and "stereotypes" are more often than not projecting their very limited viewpoint and trying to fit the book onto the narrow rack of their own set of pre-fabricated notions, instead of approaching with an open mind and appreciating the characters for what they are, not what you want them to be.

I'll second the post that mentioned we have no idea where Arya story is going.

Becoming a Faceless (Wo)Man, returning to Westeros, wreaking revenge on the killers of her family and reuniting with the survivors, most likely Jon Snow, to battle the Final Evil?

Seriously, Arya's so definitely going to Westeros it's basically set in stone. She's got nothing else and cares about nothing else, though she may still spend a long time becoming a true assassin.

On the other hand Sansa seems to have a much clearer character trajectory (being taught by Littlefinger, outsmarting him, and un-doing many of the injustices he caused).

Sansa outsmarting Littlefinger? You're pulling my leg. She'd probably be able to do something, but "outsmarting" the smartest character in the books seems unlikely. Petyr strikes me as a controversial figure, with a kind of inner torment like the Hound, only he has learned to hide it well. Most likely, in true poetic fashion, LF's fall will be in part his own doing, and probably linked to his adoration of Sansa.

It is also interesting how so much of the tragedy that we see in Westeros comes about due to the enforced gender roles and relationships

Again with the projecting of "modern values" on a supposedly medieval society. Let's look at your examples and see whether "enforced gender roles" really matter so much:

- Cercei is forced to marry a man she does not love, and has no way of getting out of that marriage leading to all kinds of bitterness and resentment on her part

The same was true of Robert: he loved Lyanna, did not care about Cersei, and all he got of the marriage was bitterness, resentment & eventually death.

Robb Stark: forced to marry a Frey girl he doesn't care about for political purposes; marrying a girl he loves leads to, you guessed it, death.

Joffrey: can you say bitterness and resentment towards Sansa Stark? And in the end, again, death over a marriage.

And many more examples. It's not the gender, it's the nobility status which makes marriage a political tool rather than a means to achieve personal happiness.

Cersei often laments that she wasn't born with a dick, but truth be told, had she been a man she'd probably be little better than Joffrey.

- Assuming speculation on Rheagar and Lyana is true, Lyana has to marry a man she does not want (in GoT in fact, Ned remember a conversation he had with Lyanna in which he tells him that Robert will never be truthful), who considers it his right that he should have her. Similarly we can assume Elia had to marry Rheagar for similar political reasons.

And similarly RHAEGAR and ROBERT had to wed women they did not love. It's called POLITICS, not "gender roles".

- Neither Catelyn nor Lysa are allowed to marry Littlefinger as he is below their status,

Nor Petyr was allowed to marry them, and was in fact kicked out of Riverrun after losing a duel to Brandon Stark.

-Similarly Tysha is punished for marrying a man above her station, shaping Tyrion for the rest of his life, and making him to take the actions he does at the end of SoS.

Similarly Tyrion is punished for marrying a woman BELOW his station. And then punished AGAIN when he falls for a whore.

- Theon decides to take over Winterfell as a show of his abilities because he is incapable of accepting that his father favors his sister, a woman, over him as his heir.

1. As Theon himself notes in his chapter, there are Ironborn women who sail the seas alongside men, and captain ships. This is not considered inappropriate.

2. Laws of succession are what they are, "gender roles" notwithstanding; Theon was the rightful heir, and his father "favoring" Asha as a heir would be the same as if Balon "favored" a younger son instead of Theon.

3. Asha has a very aggravating personality, it's no wonder Theon isn't much fond of her.

4. All in all, although Asha's gender does get mentioned, it's only the icing on the cake, the real reasons for Theon's distress are deeper and more serious. Mainly he feels unaccepted by the Ironborn society as a whole, and his father in particular, due to the 10-year absence and him not being up to Ironborn standards.

So as you can see, all your examples have little to nothing to do with "forced gender roles", and just show how misapplied contemporary "values" are to historical settings.

And in much less dramatic fashion, so many of the characters are shaped as individuals because of their experiences with the gender relationships that are defined for them by society - Dany in the khaleesi role defined for her by Dothraki society, Brienne, Jon by being shamed of his relationship with Ygritte, and of course, Arya and Sansa.

Dany cherished and reveled in her role as Khaleesi, and when time came used it perfectly well to her own ends.

Brienne had little trouble taking up arms and becoming a knight. She was trained by a knight, knighted, and accepted into a king's personal guard. Her troubles have a lot to do with her being extremely ugly, which played tricks with her self-esteem and how others treated her; but in terms of gender roles, she played a man with great success.

Jon is being shamed because he's a Night Watchman who took celibacy vows. Oh, and never was in love with a girl before.

Arya and Sansa both got what they wanted from the society. Sansa wanted to be a proper maid, and so she was. Arya wanted to run around and fight, and so she got a "dancing master" and then got accepted into an elite assassin academy.

I hope this demonstrates that issues of gender, though certainly present in the book (it's about middle ages, for god's sake) do not play a role as fundamental and pivotal as you might imagine.

[Lady Blackfish]

The same was true of Robert: he loved Lyanna, did not care about Cersei, and all he got of the marriage was bitterness, resentment & eventually death.

Robb Stark: forced to marry a Frey girl he doesn't care about for political purposes; marrying a girl he loves leads to, you guessed it, death.

Joffrey: can you say bitterness and resentment towards Sansa Stark? And in the end, again, death over a marriage.

While both men and women are limited by the Westerosi marriage system, I don't think they are limited equally. Robert and Cersei are both in an unhappy marriage, but Cersei is the one who is beat up and forced to have sex when she doesn't want to. It's difficult to see this happening as often with the genders reversed. It's, of course, an extension of biology, but biology does inform enough about gender roles.

Robb, interestingly, was asked if he accepted the arrangement his mother made for him. Edmure was also given an option to refuse. It's hard for me to think that nearly as many women would be given that choice.

Another point re. inequality in marriage-related limitations: neither Lysa nor Jon wanted to marry each other, both experienced an amount of pressure. But in Jon's case, it was his choice, nobody forced him, he came to the decision himself, whereas Lysa had far less freedom in the matter. The specific reasons are also interesting to look at: for Jon, he needs an heir to continue his family name and all related things (women, of course, usually must take their husband's and rarely get to pass on their own lineage). But for Lysa, she needs to cover up the fact that she had sex and became pregnant out of wedlock. There's a distinct gender asymmetry there that results in greater need for control over one gender than the other.

[Raksha the Demon]

Becoming a Faceless (Wo)Man, returning to Westeros, wreaking revenge on the killers of her family and reuniting with the survivors, most likely Jon Snow, to battle the Final Evil?

Seriously, Arya's so definitely going to Westeros it's basically set in stone. She's got nothing else and cares about nothing else, though she may still spend a long time becoming a true assassin.

Sansa outsmarting Littlefinger? You're pulling my leg. She'd probably be able to do something, but "outsmarting" the smartest character in the books seems unlikely. Petyr strikes me as a controversial figure, with a kind of inner torment like the Hound, only he has learned to hide it well. Most likely, in true poetic fashion, LF's fall will be in part his own doing, and probably linked to his adoration of Sansa.

I think Sansa is one of the few people who could bring down Littlefinger; though she would have to grow up some more and become more skilled at manipulation. Actually, she is somewhat skilled at manipulation already, but not consciously - she handled the raging Hound quite well during the battle, despite being extremely scared of him; and I think he had intended to rape her; and she is one of the few people at the Eyrie who can handle poor little Robert, with a mixture of firmness and compassion. The reason that Sansa could be the one to bring down Littlefinger is that he does prize her above many others, she is valuable to him, she embodies many of his strongest 'issues'. I don't think Littlefinger values Sansa more than his own life or prosperity; but if he goes too far with her, does something she cannot bear, she might be able to veil her rage and wait for the right time to take revenge on him.