Faithfulness to the Books

[mr. peasant]

Before I begin, I would stress that this thread is meant for mature discussion. Please refrain from accusing others of not being 'true fans' of the work. Aside from being a pointless term, arguments on it has a tendency of hijacking whole threads away from the original topic and frequently ends in flaming. Which isn't good. With that out of the way, do proceed:

HBO's Game of Thrones (GoT) has for the most part remained fairly faithful to the original book. However, there have still been a few changes - including the fusing of characters, the addition of new scenes and minor changes in chronology/sequencing of events. Nonetheless, it's been previously stated that these changes do not necessarily reflect the book and that as far as the book series is concerned, GoT is not canon. All the same, the producers have expressed a desire to continue adapting from the books. However, as has been noted in this forum and elsewhere, there are several challenges - both, in terms of scale and story length - which might make adapting the other novels more difficult than the original. With all of that in mind, should the show continue to follow the books?

In my opinion, there are three options in terms of the level of faithfulness the show is to the books. Obviously, they are one continuum and intermediates do exist. However, they can be broadly categorised as follows:

1. Exact adaptation - By that, I mean show events exactly as depicted in the books; making changes only where absolutely necessary, where no other alternatives are available. For instance, recasting characters for actors who leave the show or who have passed on (e.g. recasting Old Nan since her actress, Margaret John has passed away), instead of creating/repurposing another, similar character to fill the role.

2. Change POVs - The sequence of events occur as in the books but shown but there might be changes in whose perspectives are shown. In other words, show onscreen what was described as happening offscreen in the books and vice versa, so that the original main characters from season 1 continue to remain in focus.

3. Complete breakaway - In short, being willing to completely deviate from the source material and going down its own path; picking and choosing events as and when they like, if at all. Events and characters can evolve differently from the books. An extreme example would be that Ned and Drogo need not have died at the end of the first season.

Now, I'll talk a bit about Option 3 since I'm sure everyone's gut reaction is that it shouldn't even be an option in the first place. However, there are benefits in taking that route that is not found in the others. Unlike books, when making a show, there are more factors in play than just the writer's will and the meddling of executives/editors. Limitations in resource (e.g. budget, cast and crew, filming time,, air time) contribute in shaping the story of a movie/TV show. By breaking away from the books, this frees the show to better take these limitations into account and to allocate available resources appropriately. For instance, the show can create one impressive and large scale battle instead of being forced to do three/four/five small, unimpressive battles due to budgetary and time constraints. Moreover, it also gives the show the freedom to adapt to any unforeseen circumstances (e.g. actors getting poached and/or schedule conflicts, which are all part of the business).

Incidentally, another advantage of not keeping with the books is unpredictability. Indeed, one of the original draws of the book is the uncertainty of what's going to happen next. We're always left guessing what curveball Martin will throw at us next. If the show follows the books, we lose this since we know what's about to happen. If they don't, we get back that sense of suspense and excitement that we got with the books (and that the non-readers are experiencing).

So, non-compliance isn't all bad. Thoughts?

To the mods: I was trying to attach some sort of poll to this thread (on the question posed, with the three options listed as answer choices) but couldn't find the option. Is it possible to create one? If not, I might decide to link one later or just leave it as is.

[Sega AM2]

1. Exact adaptation - By that, I mean show events exactly as depicted in the books; making changes only where absolutely necessary, where no other alternatives are available. For instance, recasting characters for actors who leave the show or who have passed on (e.g. recasting Old Nan since her actress, Margaret John has passed away), instead of creating/repurposing another, similar character to fill the role.

It's already over for this. Littlefinger revealing The Hound's story to Sansa. Drogo raping Dany. Catelyn pleading with Ned not to become Hand of the King. "Fire cannot kill a dragon". Theon's entire persona. Ros. Shae. Tyrion getting knocked out before battle. Direwolves. Donal Noye. Tower of Joy. Added scenes with small council members. "Play with her arse". No Renly laughing at Lion's Tooth.

There is no chance for this show to be an exact adaptation. And the writers said that no flashbacks nor dream sequences would be shown. Though, oops, they lied about the dream sequences.

2. Change POVs - The sequence of events occur as in the books but shown but there might be changes in whose perspectives are shown. In other words, show onscreen what was described as happening offscreen in the books and vice versa, so that the original main characters from season 1 continue to remain in focus.

Already happened. Ros, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Varys, Viserys, Doreah, Jorah, Jihqui, Theon, Osha, Luwin, Renly, Loras, Cersei, Robert, Barristan, Lancel, and a few others have all appeared in scenes added that are not in the books. Some offscreen events are now shown on screen and some events are entirely fabricated or added in for whatever reasons.

3. Complete breakaway - In short, being willing to completely deviate from the source material and going down its own path; picking and choosing events as and when they like, if at all. Events and characters can evolve differently from the books. An extreme example would be that Ned and Drogo need not have died at the end of the first season.

Also not going to happen. All main events will happen. Characters that die will die. Ones that live will live. The ones who lose in the books lose in the story. And winners win. While one of the writers for the show is the same guy who wrote Wolverine Origins (LOL) even he can't be so stupid as to dramatically change events or characters around completely. I doubt we'll see Jorah die next season or Stannis win Blackwater or Ned rise from the grave and so on. Shae might be a completely different version of herself but she'll still die in Tywin's bed with a chain of gold around her neck.

This adaptation is a scaled down version of Game of Thrones with load of mostly small but a few larger meandering changes. No one expected a large scale adaptation when HBO committed to only ten episodes. No one expected battles or CGI creatures when HBO hired a very small team of graphics artists especially when cities and The Wall needed to be almost entirely CG. And no one expected the writer of Wolverine Origins to faithfully recreate GRRM's prose (no one sane anyways).

[Delta1212]

I think I'm going to support option 4 (I.e. What they've been doing already)

[mr. peasant]

It's already over for this. Littlefinger revealing The Hound's story to Sansa. Drogo raping Dany. Catelyn pleading with Ned not to become Hand of the King. "Fire cannot kill a dragon". Theon's entire persona. Ros. Shae. Tyrion getting knocked out before battle. Direwolves. Donal Noye. Tower of Joy. Added scenes with small council members. "Play with her arse". No Renly laughing at Lion's Tooth.

There is no chance for this show to be an exact adaptation. And the writers said that no flashbacks nor dream sequences would be shown. Though, oops, they lied about the dream sequences.

Already happened. Ros, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Varys, Viserys, Doreah, Jorah, Jihqui, Theon, Osha, Luwin, Renly, Loras, Cersei, Robert, Barristan, Lancel, and a few others have all appeared in scenes added that are not in the books. Some offscreen events are now shown on screen and some events are entirely fabricated or added in for whatever reasons.

Also not going to happen. All main events will happen. Characters that die will die. Ones that live will live. The ones who lose in the books lose in the story. And winners win. While one of the writers for the show is the same guy who wrote Wolverine Origins (LOL) even he can't be so stupid as to dramatically change events or characters around completely. I doubt we'll see Jorah die next season or Stannis win Blackwater or Ned rise from the grave and so on. Shae might be a completely different version of herself but she'll still die in Tywin's bed with a chain of gold around her neck.

This adaptation is a scaled down version of Game of Thrones with load of mostly small but a few larger meandering changes. No one expected a large scale adaptation when HBO committed to only ten episodes. No one expected battles or CGI creatures when HBO hired a very small team of graphics artists especially when cities and The Wall needed to be almost entirely CG. And no one expected the writer of Wolverine Origins to faithfully recreate GRRM's prose (no one sane anyways).

I see what you're getting at. However, as I pointed out in the original post, it's one broad continuum and the show will obviously be located somewhere along the spectrum rather than those three exact points (roughly two extremes with option 2 as a middle ground). It's more a question of what the show should aspire/lean towards. And while new scenes have been added, they are for the most part inconsequential to the overarching story and are somewhat necessary in order to establish/clarify the different characters' dynamics and personality since we're watching it from the outside rather than sitting inside a character's head. Where as when I talk about changes in POV, I'm referring towards focusing on one at the expense of another's. For instance, spending more time with Jaime at the expense of Stannis' side in the upcoming book/season. Thus far, the new scenes were largely one-offs and haven't really made the show follow a character that wasn't followed in the original book.

I think I'm going to support option 4 (I.e. What they've been doing already)

I think they've remained (for the most part) within Option 1; with a few tweaks here and there to improve pacing and narrative but nothing egregious. At least, I think so; based on what I vaguely recall of the first book from ten years ago.

[Ser Latecomer]

I see what you're getting at. However, as I pointed out in the original post, it's one broad continuum and the show will obviously be located somewhere along the spectrum rather than those three exact points (roughly two extremes with option 2 as a middle ground). It's more a question of what the show should aspire/lean towards. And while new scenes have been added, they are for the most part inconsequential to the overarching story and are somewhat necessary in order to establish/clarify the different characters' dynamics and personality since we're watching it from the outside rather than sitting inside a character's head. Where as when I talk about changes in POV, I'm referring towards focusing on one at the expense of another's. For instance, spending more time with Jaime at the expense of Stannis' side in the upcoming book/season. Thus far, the new scenes were largely one-offs and haven't really made the show follow a character that wasn't followed in the original book.

I think they've remained (for the most part) within Option 1; with a few tweaks here and there to improve pacing and narrative but nothing egregious. At least, I think so; based on what I vaguely recall of the first book from ten years ago.

I think the show should definitely hit Option 2 squarely. GRRM has always been against "fan fiction", so I can't see him giving his blessing to something that completely alters the plotline of the series. However, we must admit that television is a completely different medium, and so freedom must be given the show's creators to tell the story in an effective way. I like what they have done so far, and hope they continue in that vein.