Is the Hound Really that bad?

[HarransRoast]

Way back in the day, which was on a Wednesday, the Hound was sent out to kill the Butchers Boy for a crime that he didn't commit. Now, in both the book and the TV series, I think it's left ambiguous as to if he actually killed Mycah. In the books he doesn't even remember the butchers boy until her needs to upset the Brotherhood without Banners, and later he uses it similarly to get Arya to kill him.

When he brings the body back to KL it's explicitly stated that the body is wrapped up so nobody can see it but that the person was cut nearly in half. In the TV series, the body is laying face down and you can't really tell who it is. My theory is that the hound either found some dead body or some thief in Flea bottom and brought their body instead and let the boy go. I think this is important in showing that even though the hound can be ruthless he isn't heartless. It would also redeem him.

So this is my theory, what if Arya later finds Mycah over in Braavos? Having escaped from the SK because he's been accused of injuring the King. Wouldn't she feel guilty about leaving the hound to die? I feel like this could serve as the catalyst for her not becoming a Faceless Man, because the guilt would be too much for her to forget. I believe that the Grave Digger is the Hound like most people do, and that he and Septon Meribald are going to end up as the Grand High Septon and the Leader of the Faith Militant respectively after the current GHS gets put down. This would in a round about way give the Hound a new Purpose, and Draw Arya toward Kings Landing. What does everyone think?

[Rinso]

Yeah, with all due respect, that's as far fetched as it gets, and you have some facts wrong (that thing didn't happen in King's Landing, it was in the open country, so, no, I doubt he found a convenient dead body for a cover-up). Oh, wait. It's a joke, isn't it, and it flew over my head? You should have added sarcastic emoticons like this - :rolleyes: or :wideeyed:.

Anyway, assuming that it's not a joke and risking to make an ass of myself, no, the Hound is a bad guy. Not only he killed Mycah, he laughed about it as if it was a great fun to ride over a kid and cut him in half. A lot of fans will tell you how he has a heart of gold undearneath, I never bought that.

[Todd Sand bastard of AZ]

He's bad, but not that bad. He's not Gregor.

The Hound was just a raging emo with a bad childhood, so look at it this way. While some emos cut themselves to deal with their problems, Sandor cut everyone else.

[Talleyrand]

They were in the Riverlands why is the Hound going to ride to KL, get a body and ride back just so he doesn't have to kill someone? I took it from the books that he was stating that he did kill Mycah.

[HarransRoast]

Yeah, with all due respect, that's as far fetched as it gets, and you have some facts wrong (that thing didn't happen in King's Landing, it was in the open country, so, no, I doubt he found a convenient dead body for a cover-up). Oh, wait. It's a joke, isn't it, and it flew over my head? You should have added sarcastic emoticons like this - :rolleyes: or :wideeyed:.

Anyway, assuming that it's not a joke and risking to make an ass of myself, no, the Hound is a bad guy. Not only he killed Mycah, he laughed about it as if it was a great fun to ride over a kid and cut him in half. A lot of fans will tell you how he has a heart of gold undearneath, I never bought that.

I'm not saying a heart of pure gold, but at least not a heart of ice. Even if I'm wrong about the location, I'm not wrong about the body not being identified. The entire affair seems like a set up to me. Why have the hound hunt him down, and Arya hate him for hunting him down only for her to ultimately forgive the hound and then immediately leave him to die? We have actually never seen the hound doing anything "evil" on screen. The only truly terrible deed we know of him doing is this thing with Mycah, and contrary to what he says, the War wasn't even happening when he supposedly rode Mycah down, so how would he not remember riding down a kid and slicing him in half until he was pressed on the issue?

The hound tried to save Sansa, albeit in the most bass ackward way. He protected Arya from the Red Wedding, and no matter how much he says it was "for the ransom", it rings hollow. He enjoyed having Arya with him, and he wanted to protect her. We know this because, he wants to kill Gregor. Why not go with Polliver and the Tickler and fight his brother? The only reason to stay would be to protect Arya.

The Hound was searching for a purpose, and as the grave digger he has found something of a purpose. Ironically he's still filling graves, but I see him as fundamentally different than say, Bronn. He might not be Ned Stark Honorable, but he's at least slightly better than Jamie, and as it turns out Jamie isn't that bad of a guy.

[Swift]

Way back in the day, which was on a Wednesday, the Hound was sent out to kill the Butchers Boy for a crime that he didn't commit. Now, in both the book and the TV series, I think it's left ambiguous as to if he actually killed Mycah.

Wait, what? How was it left ambiguous? The Hound has said many times that he killed the butcher's boy.

[Alexia]

The Hound makes a big point of telling Sansa how he has killed women, children, lords, and others. He's a professional killer - as are all the other knights and men at arms in the story. He likes Arya because she reminds him of himself and so he mentors her. He likes Sansa because she reminds him of himself (with her own personal Gregor) and so he tries to wake her up to the truth of what the world is.

It would be a huge cop-out to make the killing of Mycah not happen. That is what this world is about - an innocent child can die on the say-so of a king. This is Sandor's starting point - he is capable of great evil but also of good. That is the inherent contradiction of the character, that makes him complex and thus fascinating.

[Rinso]

First, Arya never forgave him. Second, he was ordered to hunt him down and kill Mycah because of Joffrey's lies. Third, the body was identified, they delivered it to Mycah's father who initially couldn't recognize him because he was murdered so savagely. Fourth, while I usually don't use loaded therms like "evil", the Hound is a pretty rotten guy - his personal philosphy is extremely mysanthropic and he has stated numerous times that he enjoys being a killer.

Now, yes - he did save Sansa, but he had a crush on her. He wouldn't have saved a random girl that meant nothing to him. He protected Arya from the Red Wedding, yes, but he just hoped to ransom her off for money since her friends in the Brotherhood without Banners stole his gold. I also don't think he enjoyed having her with him. He didn't go with Polliver and the Tickler because he knew that they were intending to capture him and wait for Gregor to return from King's Landing and kill him personally, probably in a horrific way. He was after his own survival there, not Arya's.

All in all, a lot of what you say is distorted by your own sympathetic view on Sandor, I think. I like the guy too, heck, I'd even go as far as saying he's my favorite character. But he's not a good guy. He's worse than Bronn - Bronn does it for the money, Sandor does it because he enjoys it and hates the whole world.

[Miyamoto]

The only truly terrible deed we know of him doing is this thing with Mycah, and contrary to what he says, the War wasn't even happening when he supposedly rode Mycah down, so how would he not remember riding down a kid and slicing him in half until he was pressed on the issue?

Isn't clearly stated in the book that he has Mycah's corpse strapped to his horse.

[Alexia]

Now, yes - he did save Sansa, but he had a crush on her. He wouldn't have saved a random girl that meant nothing to him.

Don't we in fact see this when he saves Sansa from the rioters and leaves Lollys?

He protected Arya from the Red Wedding, yes, but he just hoped to ransom her off for money since her friends in the Brotherhood without Banners stole his gold. I also don't think he enjoyed having her with him.

I actually disagree a bit here. I thought that he found Arya fairly entertaining and grew to like her quite a bit. I thought he was amused by her attempts to kill him (as was I) and grew to think of her as a younger sister or a daughter in some sort of way. The whole thing about teaching her how to kill and the gift of mercy....

I still like him though. Good guys are massively overrated. :)

[HarransRoast]

First, Arya never forgave him. Second, he was ordered to hunt him down and kill Mycah because of Joffrey's lies. Third, the body was identified, they delivered it to Mycah's father who initially couldn't recognize him because he was murdered so savagely. Fourth, while I usually don't use loaded therms like "evil", the Hound is a pretty rotten guy - his personal philosphy is extremely mysanthropic and he has stated numerous times that he enjoys being a killer.

Now, yes - he did save Sansa, but he had a crush on her. He wouldn't have saved a random girl that meant nothing to him. He protected Arya from the Red Wedding, yes, but he just hoped to ransom her off for money since her friends in the Brotherhood without Banners stole his gold. I also don't think he enjoyed having her with him. He didn't go with Polliver and the Tickler because he knew that they were intending to capture him and wait for Gregor to return from King's Landing and kill him personally, probably in a horrific way. He was after his own survival there, not Arya's.

All in all, a lot of what you say is distorted by your own sympathetic view on Sandor, I think. I like the guy too, heck, I'd even go as far as saying he's my favorite character. But he's not a good guy. He's worse than Bronn - Bronn does it for the money, Sandor does it because he enjoys it and hates the whole world.

I think thats backwards, no good fighter doesn't enjoy the fight. Just because someone says they do something doesn't mean they have actually did it. The Hound doesn't hate the world, he hates the same thing Jamie hates, the psuedo-honor that the world has. The both say basically the same thing, as a knight, your main function is to be a killer of people. And that the oaths and loyalties are all just fodder so people don't feel bad about the killing. He has shown himself to be above random brutality numerous times, such as when he refuses to hit Sansa or even abuse her. To suggest this was nothing more than him liking her is crazy. And if all he wanted to do was sell Arya, why not take her to the Freys? Or Bolton? Or Kings Landing? He could have gotten not only gold but a pardon if he just packed her up and took her back to KL. It doesn't even make sense that the gold was his whole motive. He was trying to get Arya home and find a place for himself.

The Hound isn't afraid of Polliver or the Tickler, and you can tell that they are at first attempting to placate him and get him to coming willingly with them. Sandor's whole purpose up until going to the quiet Island had been to Kill Gregor. He doesn't hate people, he's just gruff and mean. He hates knights, because to him they represent what his brother is, a sword wrapped in silk ribbons. I'm sympathetic of the Hound, but I don't doubt he's a hardened killer but to suggest that he has no honor is insane. The whole point of the Hound is to serve as a foil to the lack of Honor in true knights, he shares this purpose with Jamie. They both are the Archetypical fighters with all of the curtosy stripped away.

[Rinso]

Don't we in fact see this when he saves Sansa from the rioters and leaves Lollys?

I'm not sure, actually. IIRC, when he and Sansa returned to the Red Keep, when asked about Lollys, he states he never saw her. But he never would have saved her, regardless.

I actually disagree a bit here. I thought that he found Arya fairly entertaining and grew to like her quite a bit. I thought he was amused by her attempts to kill him (as was I) and grew to think of her as a younger sister or a daughter in some sort of way. The whole thing about teaching her how to kill and the gift of mercy....

Yes, he found her amusing, I suppose. But nowhere near as much as that "Merry Adventurers Together"-vibe than I get from the OP's description. She hated him untill the very end, and he did kidnap her; yes, he saved her from certain death and only threatened her with physical violence... but that doesn't make him a good guy.

I still like him though. Good guys are massively overrated. :)

Same here.

ETA: @ the OP.

"No, it gives me joy to kill people." His mouth twitched. "Wrinkle up your face all you like, but spare me this false piety. You were a high lord's get. Don't tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man."

"That was his duty. He never liked it."

"Is that wahat he told you?" Clegane laughed again. "Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is."

[...]

"I killed my first man at twelve. I've lost count of how many I've killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvets, knights puffed up like bladers with their honors, yes, and women and children too - they're all meat and I'm the butcher."

[...]

"Aren't you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you've done."

"What evil?" He laughed. "What gods?"

"The gods who made us all."

"All?" He mocked."Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp or a halfwit like Lady Tanda's daughter? If there are gods, they made the sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with."

Make your conclusions.

[Alexia]

I'm sympathetic of the Hound, but I don't doubt he's a hardened killer but to suggest that he has no honor is insane. The whole point of the Hound is to serve as a foil to the lack of Honor in true knights, he shares this purpose with Jamie. They both are the Archetypical fighters with all of the curtosy stripped away.

I'm lost - you agree that they are meant to represent the Westerosi knight without all the courtesies and show the lack of honor in true knights. I'm trying to find a way to describe him as honorable and I just can't. He's a stone cold killer. Yeah, he totally rocks nonetheless and all that jazz but a truly honorable man would have planned to return Arya without demanding a ransom, or would have acted to stop Joffrey's beatings of Sansa in a tangible way, or would have not given speeches about how much he loves killing women and children. We could debate about how much the character is capable of but I don't think I could even say that he has his own honor code. He acts as he does with Sansa and Arya for personal reasons relating to his childhood with Gregor - not out of an honor code.

I'm not sure, actually. IIRC, when he and Sansa returned to the Red Keep, when asked about Lollys, he states he never saw her. But he never would have saved her, regardless.

Its noteworthy that he doesn't care, either. I envision him riding along watching Sansa the whole time and thus he reacts quickly to save her. But he never would jump off his prized horse and charge into a mob for Lollys or another random girl. Its not what the character is about.

I totally agree that Arya hated him until the very end, and even then she became more ambivalent about her feelings than anything else. I think Sandor liked her but she surely didn't return the feeling.

[HarransRoast]

Honestly, there are no real "good guys" in Westeros. Everyone has an agenda, and everyone is capable of killing brutally. Tyrion I would consider to be "good" even though he killed his own father with a crossbow on the toilet. How are you defining good?

[Todd Sand bastard of AZ]

Honestly, there are no real "good guys" in Westeros. Everyone has an agenda, and everyone is capable of killing brutally. Tyrion I would consider to be "good" even though he killed his own father with a crossbow on the toilet. How are you defining good?

I think Brienne is genuinely good. She didn't kill innocent people after Renly died, unlike the 'gallant' Ser Loras. And she actually witnessed it happen.

[HarransRoast]

And it's obvious that she is in the process of coming to like him. Had he not been injured I can almost bet that she would have, the fact that she leaves him out of her nightly prayers, the fact that she doesn't kill him the many times she could have. She helps him even after he passes out and it's evident that it's no because of his protection. She stays with him even after he has no value to her, and when she does try to kill him she finds she can't even after she stabs the Tickler near a hundred times proving it can't be because she's afraid to kill a man.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

Well he had a pretty tough upbringing, but that could be said about just about any one in Westeros. And still he grew up in a castle unlike the majority of the poor as shit populace, albeit in the immediate vicinity of Psycho-Greg. Still, there is no getting around that the fact that he is a bit of a shitty scumbag, but then again that can be said about most Westerosi.

A little scumbagishness is nice in a person to a certain degree, I guess.

I never really understood the love for him though.

And San-San is just beyond creepy.

[Talleyrand]

Honestly, there are no real "good guys" in Westeros.

Barristan Selmy, Brienne, Hodor, Donal Noye, Ser Arthur Dayne, Edmure Tully, Anguy the Archer, Ser Balon Swann, Jory, Meribald, Dunk the Lunk, Egg. I'm pretty sure the list can go on

[Zeromus]

He's not that bad. Yes, he's killed hundreds of men, women and children. Yes, he was quite prepared to commit acts of murder and cruelty for a clearly insane king. Yes, he made a 12-year old girl sing at knifepoint. Yes, he's feared and hated throughout Westeros. BUT he was quite nice to Arya. (Apart from threatening to beat her bloody, tying her up and hitting her with the axe.)

[Alexia]

And San-San is just beyond creepy.

*Alexia pauses to note her approval of the San/San storyline*

That is all. :)