Cat-calling, Horn-honking

[Alexia]

My example there was eye contact.

That's not cat calling, though.

There's a difference between a guy walking past alone who tells you he thinks you are pretty, and a group of men commenting to each other on your breast size while making sure you can hear it. They just aren't the same, at all. One actually is flirtation, and the other IMO is more about objectifying and embarrassing the woman for fun.

[Dornish]

Aye, and while we're at it, might as well (re)chain the female population to the fucking kitchen sink. Full societal circle, well done.

While I'm sure I've expressed myself poorly (because I very often do) I don't really think this level of hyperbole is warranted. Yes, catcalls are always inappropriate. I agree with you. I simply find it more objectionable permitting underage girls to participate in, what idealistically shouldn't be, but realistically ends up being, oggling for money.

[Chaldanya]

To echo a few here already cat-calling and horn-honking is not flirting. In fact each and every time it happens to me (and as I most definitely look like a woman this is most days) I am more likely to tell the man in question to fuck off or just ignore it completely. It's nothing more than asserting your right to discomfort someone as she's going about her daily business.

Or you could just replace my post with anything from Min, Mormie or Alexia

N

[Spider From Mars]

That's not cat calling, though.

There's a difference between a guy walking past alone who tells you he thinks you are pretty, and a group of men commenting to each other on your breast size while making sure you can hear it. They just aren't the same, at all. One actually is flirtation, and the other IMO is more about objectifying and embarrassing the woman for fun.

I agree with that distinction completely. One hope that I had for the thread was a conversation about how certain behaviors that are designed to objectify and embarrass women can be rationalized by the men doing it as something far more benign and even positive like flirtation. While we are smart enough to realize that cat-calling is not expressly about flirtation, the assholes doing it often rationalize it as flirtation amongst themselves. They doubtlessly tell themselves that they are doing a nice thing for the pretty lady by letting her know she is appreciated.

[Chaldanya]

They doubtlessly tell themselves that they are doing a nice thing for the pretty lady by letting her know she is appreciated.

I'm not that charitable. I have no doubt that all forms of catcalling are routed in objectification of that person and when getting right down to it a specific body part.

N

[Spider From Mars]

How do the women of the board feel about behaviors that are more “passive” than cat-calling? Is a double-take or a group of men turning their heads to follow you welcome as either a device to initiate a possible flirtation (from the man) or as a medium to validate your attractiveness?

ETA: Does the number of men giving the appreciative look contribute to the context as to whether it will be welcome or not? I can see where it would be more likely to be flattering to have a solo man turn to stare rather than every guy in the crowded subway station doing the same, even though greater numbers suggest greater validation of attractiveness.

[Xray the Enforcer]

It's creepy as fuck. Not welcome, not validating.

[BigFatCoward]

am i the only one that hates flirting in all its forms, if you want to fuck someone just fuck them. do not mess about. i love not being single anymore.

also i can never ever tell when someone likes me, in fact i am always 100% wrong. if i think someone digs me then the almost certainly don't. every woman i've ever hooked up with i was 'huh, you like me, you sure? you never gave off that vibe'.

[Alexia]

ETA: Does the number of men giving the appreciative look contribute to the context as to whether it will be welcome or not?

Yes, it does. Its creepy, intimidating, and IMO has less to do with my perceived attractiveness than it does with showing off in front of their friends.

[Chaldanya]

Does the number of men giving the appreciative look contribute to the context as to whether it will be welcome or not?

No. I was walking to work last week and some dude comes up under the pretense of asking directions and tries to make conversation with me. Every third sentence or so he'd just stare at my tits and in general make me feel like a piece of meat. It made no diference that there was only one of him.

Furthermore, as x-ray says it's not validating and I'd really rather you'd stop harping on about that. Four different women in this thread have told you as much and yet you obviously don't believe them so I'm wondering why you are even asking the question if you won't take the answers you're getting at face value.

Another thing: the fact that you think a woman needs a man to validate her atractiveness speaks volumes (and is heterocentrist). I don't need a man to do that - I think I look pretty fine all on my own.

N

[Dornish]

How do the women of the board feel about behaviors that are more “passive” than cat-calling? Is a double-take or a group of men turning their heads to follow you welcome as either a device to initiate a possible flirtation (from the man) or as a medium to validate your attractiveness?

ETA: Does the number of men giving the appreciative look contribute to the context as to whether it will be welcome or not? I can see where it would be more likely to be flattering to have a solo man turn to stare rather than every guy in the crowded subway station doing the same, even though greater numbers suggest greater validation of attractiveness.

Jesus Christ no. This is all essentially the same thing. Not flirting, just creepy. Flirting implies some kind of give and take, a level of equality between participants. What you're describing is not that.

[Coyotes Daughter]

cat-calling: creepy

ogling: creepy

stopping my as I walk by to tell me to smile, even though you don't know me and almost no one wanders around smiling to themselves anyway: even creepier. seriously, why do people do this?

am i the only one that hates flirting in all its forms, if you want to fuck someone just fuck them. do not mess about. i love not being single anymore.

just no.

[Spider From Mars]

No. I was walking to work last week and some dude comes up under the pretense of asking directions and tries to make conversation with me. Every third sentence or so he'd just stare at my tits and in general make me feel like a piece of meat. It made no diference that there was only one of him.

Furthermore, as x-ray says it's not validating and I'd really rather you'd stop harping on about that. Four different women in this thread have told you as much and yet you obviously don't believe them so I'm wondering why you are even asking the question if you won't take the answers you're getting at face value.

Another thing: the fact that you think a woman needs a man to validate her atractiveness speaks volumes (and is heterocentrist). I don't need a man to do that - I think I look pretty fine all on my own.

N

Guy was an asshole.

I am not ignoring that fact, but the thread is also about general, ostensibly flirtatious behaviors and not just the most undesirable. I think that if you caught a guy you found attractive staring at you in hopes of making eye contact, it would be welcome (and “validating”), but if you found the guy unattractive, naturally then it is creepy and not validating in the least.

I never said that a woman needs a man to validate her attractiveness. But I will say that for most people, men and women, having someone flirt with you and demonstrate appreciation of your attractiveness is a validating experience. Now, if that person comes off like a creep in your breast-staring example, it is not validating. That seems to be the primary determinant on whether the behavior is appreciative or not – the attractiveness of the attention-giver.

I am a straight male, I have been approached by gay men and flirted it, it was unwelcome due to my orientation but I was still flattered to have been considered attractive. I don’t think this reaction lies outside of a single standard deviation.

[zollo]

While I'm sure I've expressed myself poorly (because I very often do) I don't really think this level of hyperbole is warranted. Yes, catcalls are always inappropriate. I agree with you. I simply find it more objectionable permitting underage girls to participate in, what idealistically shouldn't be, but realistically ends up being, oggling for money.

Hyperbole it might be - but if you don't see how your reasoning essentially lies the foundation for (a return to) societal mores that involve restricting women in daily life - then I've really got nothing further to add.

[Alexia]

Spider from Mars, I think you are completely missing the point. Intimidating, harassing behavior does not get mitigated by whether or not the creep is good looking.

[zollo]

Guy was an asshole.

I am not ignoring that fact, but the thread is also about general, ostensibly flirtatious behaviors and not just the most undesirable. I think that if you caught a guy you found attractive staring at you in hopes of making eye contact, it would be welcome (and “validating”), but if you found the guy unattractive, naturally then it is creepy and not validating in the least.

How is staring ever an attractive feature? It really only makes you come off as someone with very little social tact and/or such skills in general.

[Spider From Mars]

I must be weird then because when I find a woman looking at me in an appreciative – or flirtatious – manner, I feel attractive. Even if I do not find her attractive, I appreciate the attention. I can see where it can be very different for men and women as men do not have to fight against objectification (if we even fight at all).

I find it hard to believe that the female posters here truly believe that every time someone makes eye contact with them and smiles in a playful/flirtatious manner, it is 100% of the time unwelcome, intimidating, and harassment. It makes me wonder how anyone has ever had a relationship if they can't even do something as benign as look at someone and demonstrate attraction.

[Spider From Mars]

How is staring ever an attractive feature? It really only makes you come off as someone with very little social tact and/or such skills in general.

There is a definite line between looking at someone and eye-fucking them. A distinction that should be acknowledged.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

There is, it should, and staring is generally on the wrong side of that line.

ETA: I should add, some of these should be very obviously intimidating or whatever. The other line for me is whether the guy seems to be respecting my signals back.* If I catch his eye and look away without smiling or otherwise acknowledging him, chances are good that -- whether I find him attractive or not -- I want to be left the fuck alone. Does he leave it at that? Or does he keep staring? Does he move to be next to me? RIGHT next to me? Does he follow me? Does he try to talk to me? Does he try to talk at me?** How about if I never catch his eye at all, and am reading/listening to music/doing whatever activity I'm there for? Does he still try to interrupt what I'm doing? Is his need to get my attention more important to him than my need to not give a fuck?

* Yeah, I know, sometimes my signals are hard to read or confusing or whatever. This is where 'yes means yes' comes in, or at the very least a willingness to back off after the first rejection.

** Once, a guy on the metro in Rome asked me if I spoke Italian. I didn't want to talk to him, so I said no, I didn't, and went back to reading my book. He then proceeded to leer over me, telling me (in Italian) how great my breasts were and how he could look down my shirt and so on and so forth.*** He had absolutely no interest in actually having anything to do with me, he just wanted to intimidate me and/or make lewd commentary, otherwise he would have left me alone when he thought I couldn't understand him. And this is not an unusual situation!!

*** Scot, I was sitting down and he was standing over me. No need to worry about whether my top was office-appropriate.

[Yagathai]

And this is why wraparound sunglasses are an ogler's best friend.