I am amazed at the amount of female fans on this series.

[Addien]

Actually imlad, "ghetto" is a slur with a huge history of racism behind it. It has a specific racist history. Your intent does not matter in the context of it being understood and related to by most people as a racist slur.

Please read, much of this is written by POC who specifically ask that we think about our language and its meaning, something you seem unwilling to do, or to acknowledge your privilege.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/132/132_guest_ghetto.html

http://race.change.org/blog/view/what_so_ghetto_really_means

http://www.essence.com/2010/07/16/commentary-what-is-ghetto-parenting/

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2009/08/27/ghetto-just-what-do-you-mean-by-that/

Furthermore, me pointing out the racist history behind a term does not make me the racist. It means YOU need to stop using a loaded term. The willingness to critique the use of a term with a loaded and centuries-old history behind it does not make the critic the racist - otherwise no one could call out shitty stuff people say, ever.

As for the rest of your commentary, I don't even know where to begin, but it certainly might begin to explain why there is far more woman fandom on ONTD and Tumblr than there is here.

I don't really expect you to read any of this because you seem to have already made up your mind that your intent absolves you from saying something racist or sexist, and I have already explained, many times, on this very thread, that using a racist or sexist term does not make you a racist or sexist person. You're not "bad" for having said something unconsciously racist. But you're not immune to a call-out, either.

Finally, I'm going to echo what Aiofe (spelling?) said about how the word "asshole" isn't really gendered at all, you might have wanted to go with "dick" if you wanted to make a good false equivalency.

And I've summarized peoples' arguments because arguments about privilege often follow very, very similar patterns. While I've been patronizing about it because I find the argument faulty, so have you! I think we're entitled to be bitches about stuff we care about. <_<

But anyway, while you were busy feeling "slapped in the face" because I pointed out that you may have said something racist, we've completely sidestepped my question about why or why not women fans might feel uncomfortable here. Let's discuss!

[ishie]

As for the rest of your commentary, I don't even know where to begin, but it certainly might begin to explain why there is far more woman fandom on ONTD and Tumblr than there is here.

I don't really expect you to read any of this because you seem to have already made up your mind that your intent absolves you from saying something racist or sexist, and I have already explained, many times, on this very thread, that using a racist or sexist term does not make you a racist or sexist person. You're not "bad" for having said something unconsciously racist. But you're not immune to a call-out, either.

I'm just going to jump in here (with my very first post!) to say that Addien has the right of it as far as women feeling unwelcome in this space, in my experience and from conversations with other female fans. And I'm only here because the only place where I feel comfortable is closed to new membership during ADwD's first month.

And my experience as a reader here has borne that impression out - nearly every thread I've been in is full of anti-female language and sentiment, directed at both characters and fans.

/back to lurking

[Addien]

I'm just going to jump in here (with my very first post!) to say that Addien has the right of it as far as women feeling unwelcome in this space, in my experience. And I'm only here because the only place where I feel comfortable as a female fan is closed to new membership during ADwD's first month.

And my experience as a reader here has borne that impression out - nearly every thread I've been in is full of anti-female language and sentiment, directed at both characters and fans.

/back to lurking

The "Cersei is a huge whore!" thread in this subforum is bad. Really bad.

General chatter is filled with a lot of dudes saying some pretty unconsciously sexist crap. If they got called on it, they'd react pretty defensively, would shut down, call the person pointing it out a bitch, etc. Is it even worth the effort?

There are some really neat broads in GC, but so far I'm unimpressed with some of the men posters.

It really doesn't surprise me that fandom has segregrated around this series, to an extent. I'm staying on the boards cause I'm a good friend of Yags, love love love X-Ray, and hope to make things a bit better (naively) by calling out when I have the energy.

ishie, thanks for jumping in but I am a little scared someone is going to come here and tell you that you're "overreacting" and "just need to calm down" and stop "looking for things to get offended". I hope we've evolved past that part of the thread, at least. :shocked:

[Azeutrecia]

we've completely sidestepped my question about why or why not women fans might feel uncomfortable here. Let's discuss!

As a new member, I took a quick gander at the "General Chatter" section. I submit:

* "Legs? Backside? Eyes? Chest? what gets you going?"

"It got me thinking, what do I like the best about the female form? ... Women are of course invited to share there opinions as well."

Not particularly offended, but I definitely raised an eyebrow. I have yet to see whether any discussion of the aesthetics of twigs and berries have been cheerfully embraced there.

* "Feminine Wiles"

The topic is begging to be explored. We've seen some of the ways that men act like real jerks, now it's time to explore the ways in which women act like jerks.

No problem, I clearly missed the thoughtful discussion on men's transgressions. And look! They didn't call the women "bitches," how thoughtful! Maybe it's in the next thread...

* "Masculine Wiles"

The topic is begging to be explored. We’ve seen some of the ways that women use their charms to manipulate men, now it’s time to explore the ways in which we use our masculine wiles to manipulate them.

Oh... that's... men's counter-intelligence stories on how they tricked women. Got it.

Clearly, this is not exhaustive nor exclusive, but having three topics like these prominent in the social forum caught my attention as flags for me to be cautious here. I'm used to operating in male-dominated arenas, so I'm not bothered by it personally. But I am bothered by the lack of self-awareness about how it could be seen as unwelcoming.

[ishie]

ishie, thanks for jumping in but I am a little scared someone is going to come here and tell you that you're "overreacting" and "just need to calm down" and stop "looking for things to get offended". I hope we've evolved past that part of the thread, at least. :shocked:

That's all right if they do. I wouldn't get very far in life if I ran away whenever someone tried to make me ;)

To be somewhat on topic, in the conversations I've had with fellow female fans elsewhere, the most common reasons we're drawn to the series are: the incredible depth of the characters; the intricacy of GRRM's writing (and the fact that he has a number of female characters, and even better: well-written, well-rounded, not-cardboard-cutout/background-figure female characters; which is sadly uncommon in all kinds of genres); the action; the plot; the magic and dragons; the unflinching depictions of war, of brutality and futility, of the hypocrisy of feudal ideals and chivalry; the inside jokes and homages; the world-building; and, yes, the sex.

So, pretty much the same reasons why male fans are drawn to it! If you're surprised by the number of female fans the series has, consider this: maybe people aren't often aware that women like sword and sorcery stories because men and women alike operate from the assumption that women don't, won't and shouldn't like them and are too busy shouting that to the world to pay attention to the women who say they do, will, and should. When I walk into a room where everyone is loudly agreeing that all women everywhere hate when burly dudes hack off people's arms, why would I bother sticking around? I'll just look for the room where everyone's talking about how great it is when burly dudes hack off people's arms.

[Addien]

Maybe people aren't often aware that women like sword and sorcery stories because men and women alike operate from the assumption that women don't, won't and shouldn't like them and are too busy shouting that to the world to pay attention to the women who say they do, will, and should. When I walk into a room where everyone is loudly agreeing that all women everywhere hate when burly dudes hack off people's arms, why would I bother sticking around? I'll just look for the room where everyone's talking about how great it is when burly dudes hack off people's arms.

:agree:

And yeah, one thing I like about Tumblr asoiaf is that a woman readership is assumed, and also? Way more dude eye candy as opposed to assumed "male gaze". Also, no one's casually referring to bitches, sluts, anti-woman jokes, etc.

[Alexia]

If you're surprised by the number of female fans the series has, consider this: maybe people aren't often aware that women like sword and sorcery stories because men and women alike operate from the assumption that women don't, won't and shouldn't like them and are too busy shouting that to the world to pay attention to the women who say they do, will, and should.

Ha! Gina Bellafante and "boy fiction" immediately comes to mind. I agree with this.

[Zeke]

Random thoughts on the various topics of this thread.

My impression is that Fantasy novels tend to cross gender boundaries better than Sci Fi. That being said I wouldn't be surprised to find that a greater portion of women readers out there are or have been put off by the depictions of violence and rape in these novels and the general bleakness of it all.

I've seen a pretty huge shift in "fandom" over the last 25+ years. Once there was a day when you could attend some sort of geek fest or another (a gaming con, for instance) and see maybe 1 girl geek for every 10-20 guy geeks. While I don't think we have a parity quite yet it's one whole hell of a lot closer than it was.

Misogyny/misogynist is a word that gets tossed around way too casually these days. Just about everyone is capable of and has their sexist or chauvinistic moments. Most of us manage to keep them in check or, at least, try to. Misogyny is a much, much nastier thing. We're talking about bitter, twisted individuals with a serious ax to grind. Guys who simply can't trust women and can't treat them as anything other than a means to an end. Big difference.

[Lummel]

My copy of ADWD is calling to me but all the same I type:

I'm just going to jump in here (with my very first post!) to say that Addien has the right of it as far as women feeling unwelcome in this space, in my experience and from conversations with other female fans. And I'm only here because the only place where I feel comfortable is closed to new membership during ADwD's first month.

And my experience as a reader here has borne that impression out - nearly every thread I've been in is full of anti-female language and sentiment, directed at both characters and fans.

I'm very sorry this has been your experience, I've read posts in which, for example Catelyn is called a female dog and my heart has sunk, I don't know how to find a common language and respond to such a person. I have to accept that if we aren't saying 'hey, moderate your language!' to those people then we're by omission allowing this forum to be uncomfortable for others - and I'm sorry about that.

I'm sure I'm not the only person to heartly bid you welcome!

The "Cersei is a huge whore!" thread in this subforum is bad. Really bad.

General chatter is filled with a lot of dudes saying some pretty unconsciously sexist crap. If they got called on it, they'd react pretty defensively, would shut down, call the person pointing it out a bitch, etc. Is it even worth the effort?

...

I think I recognise this a rhetorical question, but neverless I'll plough on...

the forum is open to people of various ages, backgrounds and degrees of sobriety... I read somethings and wonder if certain use of language is common, for example, in the USA, at other times I wonder if people are striving for comic effect or just to get a rise out of others? Who wants to fight battles everyday? I certainly don't. But if you don't speak up, you can't expect others to do so. And that's something that I will try to take away from this thread and bear in mind.

Having said that the joy of this forum for me has been the diversity of well argued points of view, many of which - from men and women alike- have made me sit back, think a bit and find something new to enjoy about these books. I wouldn't want anybody else to miss out on that.

[Arakel]

LOL, this thread has become...farcial. I pop back in here occasionally just for a laugh and shake my head in amazement that its still alive. This is the unGregor of threads. Random ferociousness spewing this way and that, splattering viciousness and over-the-top blather, mindless gore dripping from the walls, long, long after the original body of the thing should have died and been decently buried.

Signing off here as A-Female-Who-Doesn't-Find-The-Word-Female-To-Be-Belittling-And-Who-In-Fact-Thinks-Its-None-Of-Your-Freaking-Business-Whether-I'm-A-Girl-Or-A-Young-Woman-Or-a-Woman-Or-An-Old-Woman-So-Therefore-Female-Will-Do-Just-Fine-Thank-Y'all-Very-Much-G'bye.

Lighten up, Females, srsly. And GreyJackal, my friend, if you love me, if I ever meant anything to you (to everybody else, I don't know him, never met him, never will...) leave this unGregor thread in the midden pit and come join us mostly rational folks elsewhere. There's lotsa interesting hoo-ha to talk about besides this Flame Warriors, Politically-Correct-To-The-Point-Of-Hilarious-Farce-Bullshit.

Die, I say, unGregor Thread, Die!

This post is pure brilliance.

[Faranya]

To be somewhat on topic, in the conversations I've had with fellow female fans elsewhere, the most common reasons we're drawn to the series are: the incredible depth of the characters; the intricacy of GRRM's writing (and the fact that he has a number of female characters, and even better: well-written, well-rounded, not-cardboard-cutout/background-figure female characters; which is sadly uncommon in all kinds of genres); the action; the plot; the magic and dragons; the unflinching depictions of war, of brutality and futility, of the hypocrisy of feudal ideals and chivalry; the inside jokes and homages; the world-building; and, yes, the sex.

So, pretty much the same reasons why male fans are drawn to it! If you're surprised by the number of female fans the series has, consider this: maybe people aren't often aware that women like sword and sorcery stories because men and women alike operate from the assumption that women don't, won't and shouldn't like them and are too busy shouting that to the world to pay attention to the women who say they do, will, and should. When I walk into a room where everyone is loudly agreeing that all women everywhere hate when burly dudes hack off people's arms, why would I bother sticking around? I'll just look for the room where everyone's talking about how great it is when burly dudes hack off people's arms.

Well, I can't speak for others, but it does seem that there are some who don't see a distinction between saying that women don't/won't/shouldn't like something, and saying that it appears that the proportion of women who don't like it is rather high.

Saying that few women seem to like topic X, and because Y belongs to topic X, it is surprising that such a large number of women like Y is not really the same as saying that they don't/won't/shouldn't like Y (whatever X and Y are). There has been a fair amount of that back the other way even in the earlier pages of this thread (Men don't seem to like romance, and ASoIaF contains a fair amount of romance, so it is surprising that men like it)

It is just taking a (perhaps flawed) observation and making a commentary about the prediction derived from that observation.

One of the good things about this thread is that many people are addressing the flaws in the observation (Many women don't seem to like fantasy).

My only problem is that a lot of the discourse has also revolved around the idea that the commentary (Because many women don't seem to like fantasy, it is surprising that so many like ASoIaF) is somehow an attack on those women who are fans of the series, and that those who are making this commentary are somehow of the opinion that this makes women inferior in some way.

[Addien]

ETA: Forget it, it's not even worth it.

[moot]

I don't really know anyone that is into any type of fantasy IRL…

As for women being generally turned off by fantasy... it's primarily true. But a lot of guys are turned off by it too and I think it's not just the stereotypical stuff that turns them off, it's just pure laziness. Most people I know that do read fiction (most of them are women, 90% of the guys I know do NOT read on any type of regular basis and of the ones who do they mostly read non-fiction) stick to your Patterson, Grisham, pop authors I guess you could call them?

I was going to write something similar. I have friends who are literary snobs (read a lot of difficult, unhappy literature, such as Cormac McCarthy), and those who read mostly Oprah-approved best-seller lit, neither of whom would lower themselves to read fantasy because they consider it childish and irrelevant, by which I mean, stories that aren't about real people with real world problems. And then there are those who read mostly YA (Meyers, Collins), and again, wouldn't consider reading ASOIAF because it's just too big and too much.

I work in a geeky field, and even most of the people I work with wouldn't consider reading fantasy. Sci-fi yes, but not fanatsy.

Since I started reading ASOIAF about 13 years ago, I've only met one other person who's read the series (or admitted that to me), and that person was a woman I worked with who is now a fashion designer.

[Lady Blackfish]

I find all the "Jeez lighten up" sentiments in this thread very disappointing, and that's really all I have the heart and energy to contribute any more (apparently not). If you can't muster up enough empathy to just consider walking in someone else's shoes to see how the world makes them feel, with all the ways various little things add up, then you'd better be 15 years old, because it's not very becoming on an adult.

I don't think that having a vagina automatically makes one right, but I don't think anyone in this thread was arguing anything that was predicated on such an assumption. As such, that's very much a strawman argument. If you think it's farcical, have the guts to get involved and say why, instead of sitting on the sidelines.

And anyway, if someone else is offended, does that insult people somehow?

I agree that the word "misogyny" should be used carefully, sometimes people use it when they really mean "sexism". At the same time, sexism itself is pretty annoying and generally indefensible.

[Joanna vander Poele]

This thread truly keeps on giving. Although it should probably stop.