I am amazed at the amount of female fans on this series.

[GreyJackal]

I think we are torturing Grey.

He may be romanticizing women, stereotyping women into having more delicate sensibilities, but so what? He's right: women DO commit much less violent crimes than men...we're simply not that violent and abusive towards others. AND he's saying he doesn't "disapprove" of women who don't fit the common mold of what women should/should not be like- he thinks a woman who enjoy things like videogames and stuff is cool, even attractive.

I don't think Grey is being given a fair shake here, just my 2 cents.

Thanks. I am good though. I knew it would be hard to convey my feelings without sounding like a weiner, and I did it fairly well IMO. I do not have a stereotype of women being all flowers and rainbows howevers. I was saying that given the genre, content, and level of normal things women find degrading that there are so many female fans.

It is not a bad thing. I love women. My mother was a woman.(I stole this quote from somewhere)

There have been women that scared me, never showered, had filthy houses, bi-polar insanity, picked fights, love to cause drama, ruined guys lives, have been after money, and have said some things that have made me raise my eyebrows. So I don't think they are all angels.

I uhhh....hope that makes you all feel better....

:worried:

[Alexia]

Does that include so called "fine literature"? Because they seem to have some superiority complex over "genre fiction" despite much of it also being blindingly awful...

I don't know what "fine" literature is, do you mean classic literature? I usually like most classic books that I sit down with, though I can't blow through them the way I do with SFF. And the best of SFF stands up to the classics, IMO.

[Flit]

I think GRRM does fantasy that can relate to females better than others, because other series I have read have only crappy female characters. LotR, for instance, has a grand total of like three women in the entire series and all they do is hover around majestically telling people prophetic junk or being Eowyn ("Nevermind. Aragorn is right. I should stop trying to fight and start marrying people and having babies. I no longer want to try to do Stuff. Let's make out, Faramir!")

Or are totally screwed over by Aragon, eg. Arwen, because he's a self-obsessed arrogant arsewipe who thinks it better to let his apparent love of his life wander in grief alone for eternity than die a few years earlier and let her leave on the last ship! Prick! Oh, and the movie made it seem like she couldn't leave, SHE COULD HAVE but noooo Aragon wanted to live just a little longer and make her spend eternity on her own. They had freakin' ages together, and her suffering was worth that? He wasn't even there for most of it! And I'm supposed to think he's amazing?? :tantrum:

[Datepalm]

I've heard this from geeky guys a lot and I find it endearingly weird. You never hear girls say like "Wow, he's so hot and manly, and get this - he loves chick lit and knitting! We have the most amazing sex, and then we catalogue our Hello Kitty collection together!"

One of the hottest guys i've ever known taught me how to knit, actually. And if a guy can pull off being a feminist without wandering off into humorlessness or pretentious liberal guilt - always a turn on.

I think it's the expected theme of the novels that gives women writers such a poor name in the sci/fi field. That you can pick a women's writing from a man's. Now, I believe you can in most cases, but I don't see that as a wrong thing.

I wonder if this isn't a self perpetuating cycle, to some extent. I remember there was a link posted to some thingybob a while ago that could tell from a sample whether the writer was a man or a women, and lo and behold - it turned that it would mark, say, all fight scenes, regardless of who they were written by, as being by a man, and all conversations about weddings, as being writted by a woman. :blink: Its part of this cycle of stuff women/men are 'supposed' to like, because this is inherently how women/men 'are', and anyone who dosen't must be some kind of a-typical gender deviant.

[Faranya]

I don't know what "fine" literature is, do you mean classic literature? I usually like most classic books that I sit down with, though I can't blow through them the way I do with SFF. And the best of SFF stands up to the classics, IMO.

See, I'm not entirely sure either. People seem to talk as though the only way something can be considered "literature" nowadays is if it is a story that could conceivably be non-fiction if you didn't already know it wasn't. If it is in any way fantastic or unrealistic, it is treated like a lower tier of writing...

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Anyway, poor you! Not having any female nerd friends seems to have narrowed your perception of vagina carriers. My little female nerd group all watch/read this series and talk awkwardly through the sex scenes.

This may be part of GreyJackal's problem, and it's one I share. A lot depends on where you live and what kind of people you encounter in everyday life. I live in a very conservative area, much more traditional and grounded than other parts of the Western world. In addition, I work in a somewhat uptight industry that attracts no-nonsense types of both genders. So it can be a bit challenging for me to meet anyone who shares my love of SFF, but women especially. I only know 2 or 3 women in real life who are even remotely interested in the same fiction types I am, and one is my sister (who was introduced to GRRM through me).

Obviously I know there are a ton of female SFF fans out there; this site and others like it make that plainly obvious. But the women I meet in the course of my daily business couldn't give two shits about it and aren't generally open to the idea of trying anything beyond Stephanie Myer or maybe JK Rowling. This is the sort of experience that forms opinions like those of GreyJackal. I don't think most women who are huge SFF fans realize what a rarity they are in a lot of male SFF fans' everyday experience.

[Errant Bard]

Thank you Errant, you have put it way nicer than I could have.

I however, am not prejudiced.

I'm not actually agreeing with you, I think. Of course I agree it's good to see the balance of readership gender even itself a bit, but you lost me when you suggested that women didn't read because they were more delicate, and wouldn't stomach implied rape.

I'm not sure about the inpalatability of genre to women/girls.

Oh, to be sure, I'm not saying it's unpalatable to anyone, I'm saying that there is a prejudice stemming from Conan as much as LOTR, or Ivanhoe, Eddings or D&D. Chainmail bikinis are a staple of our genre, after all.

The same way I'm certain romance is not impalatable to guys. (though, there is obvious chick-lit (Black jewels...) as much as there is obvious male wish fulfilment crap)

[Flit]

One of the hottest guys i've ever known taught me how to knit, actually. And if a guy can pull off being a feminist without wandering off into humorlessness or pretentious liberal guilt - always a turn on.

I wonder if this isn't a self perpetuating cycle, to some extent. I remember there was a link posted to some thingybob a while ago that could tell from a sample whether the writer was a man or a women, and lo and behold - it turned that it would mark, say, all fight scenes, regardless of who they were written by, as being by a man, and all conversations about weddings, as being writted by a woman. :blink: Its part of this cycle of stuff women/men are 'supposed' to like, because this is inherently how women/men 'are', and anyone who dosen't must be some kind of a-typical gender deviant.

I don't think it's down to something as simple as a fight scene or a topic of conversation. I don't know, I think it's the tone. I don't want to go into using adjectives to describe it, because one will inevitably come off as sounding lesser than the other. I do a lot of editing (not grammar, I have a proper editor to help me with mine, I hate attempting other people's work) and I can generally feel comfortable in guessing whether something was written by a man or a women. But, as I said, I don't think that's a bad thing. And it can really help knowing that when you go to write a first person piece from a character of the opposite sex. At least, that's just my humble opinion.

I got into this after that wanker V.S. Naipaul announced that women were inferior writers because they are women. Link is here And after really thinking about it, could agree to the point that you can tell, generally-def. not all the time- the gender of the writer. Everything else he says is a crock of shit and his book was a hideous waste of my time and I want that time back thank you very much.

[GreyJackal]

I'm not actually agreeing with you, I think. Of course I agree it's good to see the balance of readership gender even itself a bit, but you lost me when you suggested that women didn't read because they were more delicate, and wouldn't stomach implied rape.

I really don't get where I said women are delicate and couldn't stomach rape. I think most of you are going off of Date's sarcasm toward my initial post. My only contribution to that was that it was a subject that women really don't like, therefore would most likely avoid. Now if I said "Women love to be raped !" then I could see an issue.

But saying "Women don't like rape !" is damning ? Confusing. But I think most of you are just joshing anyway.

.....right ?

In any case, I must continue this case of misplaced resentment later. It is midnight where I am and I have work tomor...today. Later peeps.

[Datepalm]

I really don't get where I said women are delicate and couldn't stomach rape. I think most of you are going off of Date's sarcasm toward my initial post. My only contribution to that was that it was a subject that women really don't like, therefore would most likely avoid. Now if I said "Women love to be raped !" then I could see an issue.

But saying "Women don't like rape !" is damning ? Confusing. But I think most of you are just joshing anyway.

I think suggesting that men are indifferent towards rape, violence and general gruesomeness is the equally problematic flip side here. GRRM (And KA Applegate) made their books rather nasty for a reason, and I think genders are largely balanced in their capacity to appreciate that reason.

[Eustace Black]

I'm not really surprised by the 'female reading fantasy' thing, I oft see more females in the fantasy section whenever I'm in the bookstore or library. Or maybe I just pay more attention to the opposite sex. Also, I was recommending this series to a friend the other day, another friend over heard and inquired: "Are there vampires in it, or werewolves?" Guess which one was the female.

[Raisin Bran]

This may be part of GreyJackal's problem, and it's one I share. A lot depends on where you live and what kind of people you encounter in everyday life. I live in a very conservative area, much more traditional and grounded than other parts of the Western world. In addition, I work in a somewhat uptight industry that attracts no-nonsense types of both genders. So it can be a bit challenging for me to meet anyone who shares my love of SFF, but women especially. I only know 2 or 3 women in real life who are even remotely interested in the same fiction types I am, and one is my sister (who was introduced to GRRM through me).

I live in a very liberal place, and I am the little sister that got the older brother to read these books! Wooo! I know loads of nerds... Too many nerds.

[the andorran]

In truth, SF and Fantasy are traditional bastions of male geekdom. But I would be a bit hesitant to attribute that to any innate female squeamishness, and would rather favour the prejudice about the ideology carried by the genre.

There's only so much misogyny you can stomach before giving up. Fantasy in particular is generally built to appeal to the young white male, from the choice of heroes to the roles attributed to characters. It is detrimental to gaining a female readership, and the prejudice generated means that a female is most likely to decide right away that any rape/sex scene plays into it, and as such is indicative that the series is to be dropped.

Same reason your average young male will not pick up an urban fantasy or a romance novel. Heck we had so many threads about prejudiced guys not picking anything written by a female that it's sickening. We did not get that far from George Sand's times.

We are seeing an upset in the tropes used for Fantasy, these days, I think, though. I see a lot more of female heroines, and I don't mean heroine playing at being men.

:agree:

Speaking as a female reader who initially started out as a huge fantasy buff as a kid, I turned away from it for a long time because I felt alienated by the genre because of my gender. A lot of women probably feel the same way, even if they can't articulate their feelings as such.

After all, the very standard bearer of the genre is LotR, a fantasy world populated entirely by men, with the mere presence of women being thrown the bone of Arwen and Eowyn. Why would women, on the whole, want to read about a world where we're relegated to being pure princesses, evil witches, and busty serving wenches? Oh, with the occasional tomboy wannabe knight thrown in. Hurrah.

That's a generalization and there are and always have been exceptions, but even when epic fantasy writers choose to include women who do something more than act as tepid love interest who needs to be saved from an evil rapist, they generally are not given the same time and attention as the men populating the story. What's more, men run around fantasy worlds, swinging swords, fighting dragons, and arguing over kingship while women are relegated to the background. It's another reminder of real-world male power, and why would we want to read about that?

Add to that the fact that we're socialized from a young age to see swords and dragons as 'boy things' and it's no wonder female fantasy readership has traditionally been small.

(Please note, I am not saying that women cannot like these things. Every woman has her own tastes and I don't like to make generalizations about "women like X things" and "men like Y things." But we are taught to believe that these are things boys are interested in, and here, why don't you read this nice chick lit novel, honey. Which turns off more women than would read fantasy if it were seen as gender neutral, for the same reasons you don't see a lot of guys reading chick lit.)

Thankfully, fantasy is changing and moving away from that. It looks like a long, hard slog though. GRRM certainly isn't flawless from a feminist perspective, though I appreciate the effort he makes to give his female characters as much thought, attention, and importance as his male ones. He does come from a perspective of male bias, though, and it shows, particularly with the way he treats rape in some instances. To be honest, I find the callous treatment of it more triggering than the fact that rape is a weapon of war and male power in Westeros.

[Errant Bard]

But saying "Women don't like rape !" is damning ? Confusing.

Damning, I don't know, but you are indeed saying women are more delicate. No matter how you turn it, you're implying men are ok with things women are not. In your words "the opposite gender would just find it crass and disgusting". Different standards, and dare I say, sexist. (now maybe that brand of sexism is ok, but don't wonder why you get some hostility)

[Olenna]

Amazingly enough, almost every person I know who likes this series is female. None of them were bothered by the amount of rape; they saw it as realistic for the setting. And honestly, people, there is very little rape actually depicted. We hear a lot about it second-hand, but IIRC none of the POV characters commit or experience a rape onscreen unless you count Cersei and Taena, so I'm not sure what the fuss is about. And none of my female friends find anything to fuss over either in that department. What squicked them more was all the graphic depiction of regular, consensual sex. The keyword here is graphic. None of the implied rape is at all graphic.

The main reason the series is appealing to women, beyond the fact that it's a helluva story, is that it's pretty gender-balanced in terms of the POVs (relative to other fantasy, anyway), there's a wider range of female characters than you typically find in the genre, and their desires and aspirations are treated with as much care as those of the male characters.

The truth is, female readers can take any violence that a writer chooses to dish out as long as they feel that they're being taken seriously as people. Most of the women I know would much rather read a story with interesting and diverse female characters that has some rape in it than a story with bland, stereotypical female characters and no rape. Because, y'know, we think the former is a more accurate reflection of the real world.

[Chrysee]

I don't know how any young lady growing up in a world were KA Applegate and, probably more importantly, Robin McKinley exist could not develop an early love of fantasy. I'm just not sure there are as many options if you get into it as an adult. Of course, I still reread Deerskin and The Blue Sword more often than I should admit. :)

[Raksha the Demon]

I could point out that it succeeds with women despite a drastic lack of vampires, but I won't. :smoking:

Heeee!

As a female fan, I can say that I have read and enjoyed some vampire novels, notably GRRM's Fevre Dream, which is probably my alltime favorite vampire tale. I won't touch Twilight though; it sounds like dressed-up high school romance, and nowhere near as clever and fun as Whedon's Buffy TV series (and spinoff Angel) were.

I like romance in fantasy and science fiction; but I also like magic, action, quests, character development, some humor occasionally if it fits the book. I don't mind romance in any story, as long as it doesn't drown the rest of the story, I have to be interested in the characters and settings. (in non-fantasy novels, I love The Thorn Birds, but not just for the romance) And graphic sex scenes bore me most of the time, even when they're not porn...

I was introduced to science fiction and fantasy by men, not women. Growing up, I didn't meet any females who appreciated SF/fantasy until I went to college. My father read me Sherlock Holmes and Kipling and H.G. Wells stories aloud, my mother read me Little Women. Now, all of those are classics; but despite I was much fonder of Sherlock Holmes and Mowgli than I was of the March girls; with no disrespect to the latter, but I wanted action and excitement in my reading material. And my high-school boyfriend, who was a very smart and literate boy, introduced me to the works of Lord Dunsany, Evangeline Walton, Katherine Kurtz, John Brunner, Robert Silverberg, lots of great authors...

But I grew up in an earlier age. When I was a kid, Tolkien's books were just becoming popular; and I loved them (still do); and the huge explosion of modern fantasy literature had not yet come into bookstores. Of course, this was pre-Internet; and in a time when I had not even heard of SF conventions...

[East of the Wood]

I have two female friends who absolutely love these books. A male friend recommended them to me. He thought I would love them and he was right! I doubt he thought to himself "Hum, I wonder if I should tell her about these books, especially if there are certain themes ie. rape, that she might not like reading about". When I did come across any of those themes, I never recoiled in horror. I just read. They are only books after all (plasphemy, I know!).

The point I'm trying to make is I was more shocked at certain events that occured ie.

Ned's beheading, Red Wedding

, etc, than at themes that GRRM has throughout the books.

Sigh, how inarticulate I feel at this moment in time. :worried:

P.S. Not sure whether I had to add in spoilers but better to be safe than sorry. ^_^

[IKnowNothing]

I don't really know anyone that is into any type of fantasy IRL (except, of course your Harry Potter/Twighlight fans and it seems even for the people that enjoy those books it's an exception to what they would usually be interested in). I started out being an avid Stephen King reader (who IMO is much more fantasy genre than horror genre) then got turned on to Anne Rice a few years later kind of by accident and was looking for something to fill the void after the last Dark Tower novel came out and a fellow (online) DT fan turned me onto GRRM.

I'd like to venture further out into the fantasy genre as soon as things slow down with work and school. As for women being generally turned off by fantasy... it's primarily true. But a lot of guys are turned off by it too and I think it's not just the stereotypical stuff that turns them off, it's just pure laziness. Most people I know that do read fiction(most of them are women, 90% of the guys I know do NOT read on any type of regular basis and of the ones who do they mostly read non-fiction) stick to your Patterson, Grisham, pop authors I guess you could call them?

Anyway, the rape/incest/whatever stuff doesn't bother me as a woman. As someone pointed out, the rape and overall violence was fairly common-place during the period. It is not generally condoned and neither is the incest. I think the violence speaks to the barbaric nature that's in all of us as human beings and though we're disgusted by it, it's also brutally intriguing.

[Hopeless]

Sounds like GreyJackal is just admitting that his previous stereotype about women not liking this type of fantasy was wrong --that he came to these boards and realized he was wrong. Stereotypes are broken by seeing examples of people who don't conform to the stereotypes, and that is what he's seeing here. I don't see that he's said anything offensive, just naive, probably since he doesn't isn't around many women (or any, I think he said). I think if he continues on these boards, he will see other stereotypes overturned.

I do think he shows disrespect for his own gender, though, by assuming that men would be more ok reading about rape than women. Martin's depictions of rape are horrific, not titillating in any sense. In my experience, men are at least disturbed reading about rape depicted in this way as women are. In real life, being a mother, I am more disturbed reading about a mother's abuse of her children than a father's. Being an American, I am more disturbed reading about American atrocities than those of another country. In other words, I personally think is is harder to read about someone like me being the evil perpetrator, than the innocent victim.