[BOOK SPOILERS] How can they handle seasons 4 and 5, if it gets there?

[Iotun]

I have to wonder how they will be managing to handle seasons 4 and 5, if they ever get to it. I think that a TV series will suffer a lot more than the books from a conversion of Feast and Dance as 'intermediary' seasons, than the books have.

Obviously Dance has not been released yet. But I think there's it can be fairly assumed that if either the Others invade, or Dany arrives at Westeros, these will be happening at the conclusion of the book.

I think the biggest problem is with the Jon, and even worse, Dany storylines. Here we have 2 characters who have had a lot of forward momentum - and both their stories are tied to the 2 greater, external to Westeros threats - which will then have to reach a 2 year pause.

How will viewers react when they had 3 seasons of the threat of the Others rising, and Dany's power growing - only for Dany to stay at some Eastern city, and Jon at the wall, for 2 seasons?

I think it'd be easier, and perhaps wiser, if the two books were made into 1 season... (and there's definitely a whole lot that can be cut out from Feast) - but I fear that that will then make them run ahead of Martin.

[Aganerral]

My take is that the two books will be combined into 2 seasons. Most of ADWD is supposed occur at the same time as events in AFFC. With GRRM's help, the screenwriters will match up the timelines and find an appropriate point to end season 4 based on teh timeline, not on book divisions.

[j52y]

I wondered this as well, but after seeing the timeline of events, I realized that there's a lot of stuff that happens in A Storm of Swords alongside the stuff in A Fest for Crows:

So, I'm thinking that season 3 will be the majority A Storm of Swords.

Season 4 will be the end of A Storm of Swords, most of A Fest for Crows, and some of A Dance with Dragons.

Season 5 will be the rest of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, and maybe a little bit of The Winds of Winter.

There would have to be some restructuring, like I think all of Brienne's A Fest for Crows chapters could easily fit into season 4, and then Sam's A Feast for Crows stuff would be all in season 5.

The most awkward thing is that Bran, Arya, and Sansa have very little to do in these seasons.

[Millardkillmoore]

This is how I'd do it.

Season 1) AGOT

Season 2) ACOK

Season 3) ASOS up until a certain wedding. Wouldn't that make a season finale to remember?

Season 4) The rest of ASOS, plus the Iron Islands chapters up until the Kingsmoot. The Shield Islands Victarion chapter will have to wait until the next season.

Season 5) AFFC/ADWD minus most of the Iron Islands chapters.

Season 6) AFFC/ADWD

[metr0man]

I wondered this as well, but after seeing the timeline of events, I realized that there's a lot of stuff that happens in A Storm of Swords alongside the stuff in A Fest for Crows:

So, I'm thinking that season 3 will be the majority A Storm of Swords.

Season 4 will be the end of A Storm of Swords, most of A Fest for Crows, and some of A Dance with Dragons.

Season 5 will be the rest of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, and maybe a little bit of The Winds of Winter.

There would have to be some restructuring, like I think all of Brienne's A Fest for Crows chapters could easily fit into season 4, and then Sam's A Feast for Crows stuff would be all in season 5.

The most awkward thing is that Bran, Arya, and Sansa have very little to do in these seasons.

This is pretty much how I see it going down.

I think they should do their damnedest though to get through as much of ASOS in S3 as possible. Even if they have to flat out LIFT OUT entire subplots, it's worth it for the overall series' sake.

I think the audience is going to need a little forward movement on certain storylines. I'm hoping S3 ends with Joff's death and Tyrion's arrest. It'll be nice to give the Lannister's a little comeuppance (of a sort) finally.

I also personally believe AFFC can do with some HEAVY cutting. In fact, I'd give the Iron Islands, Dorne, and Brienne's journey only a few scenes each.

[Iotun]

This is how I'd do it.

Season 1) AGOT

Season 2) ACOK

Season 3) ASOS up until a certain wedding. Wouldn't that make a season finale to remember?

Season 4) The rest of ASOS, plus the Iron Islands chapters up until the Kingsmoot. The Shield Islands Victarion chapter will have to wait until the next season.

Season 5) AFFC/ADWD minus most of the Iron Islands chapters.

Season 6) AFFC/ADWD

I don't see them doing AFFC and ADWD material at season 6. They shouldn't even think of doing that in my opinion. With at least two more books coming, that would mean they would need 8 seasons to finish the series at the least. There is simply no way the series will get extended that far. The actors will want to move on, the series will start to look like a joke rather than original and bold, and there has never been an HBO series that lasted that long. 7 seasons for 7 books is overstretching it already, I can even try to see them cutting things to make it 6 seasons for the whole saga.

Leaving things from SoS to season 4 is possible and combining the two books to 2 seasons could be done, yes, but it doesn't solve the problem I am worried about, which is the lack of momentum that will start taking place at about season 3. The biggest problem is Dany. There simply isn't a lot of Dany material up to the capturing of Mereen, to stretch beyond Season 3. By the end of season 3, Dany will have captured Mereen and set up as queen - otherwise she will have simply too little of a presence in seasons 2 and 3. And then however they mix the books, she will have 2 seasons of making no move towards Westeros and being stuck at the city.

Similarly, there is not enough Jon material until the time he gets elected as LC, to stretch beyond season 3. So he will also have to wait 2 seasons at the wall before the Others invade. At least with Jon, I am more confident that its possible he will have enough material in DwD to maybe be able to stretch to 2 seasons.

But the issue really is, that at the end of the day, the 2 main events in the saga will have to be Dany coming to Westeros, and the Others invading, or at least doing something significant. I think if it takes 5 seasons for either of these to happen, the series will become a joke. I've been reading some reviews in which the series is rightfully praised - I have to wonder how much praise there will be if after 5 seasons, we are no closer to the main threads of the story reaching conclusion as we were at the beginning.

In my opinion this is George's fault for changing the book structure. I have to wonder if with George's blessing they'd be bold enough to cut through a lot of the filler in DwD and FfC, and reintroduce the 5 year gap, and somehow move events in the upcoming books as if they had taken place 5 years later.

[The hairy bear]

GRRM has said that he has little doubt that AFFC and ADWD would be combined in two seasons. It's the only logical way to do, and I don't think anyone is going to argue otherwise. Take it as a given.

Regarding the books structure, I believe the seconds season will not only be the last one that will correlate to a single book (everyon seems to agree here) but also the last one that keeps the chronology of the events. As I see it, the events of ASOS, AFFC and ADWD will be moved backwards and forward in a way that it will be no longer possible to maintain de correspondence with the books.

That said, I don't think finishing a season with the Red Wedding is a good idea. If they do so, they should try to add some more things to end in a not so negative note. Perhaps Jon becoming LC of the NW, Dany conqueering Mereen, Arya moving for Braavos or Undead Cat killing his first Frey should be added in the finale.

[j52y]

As for Jon's story, I see it being distributed like this:

Season 2: A Clash of Kings story

Season 3: Undercover with the wildings and stuff with Ygritte. His story ends at Queenscrown.

Season 4: The war with the wildings at the Wall/ becoming LC

Season 5: A Dance with Dragons shit.

I think this will given Jon enough to do every season, and he'll have the most to do in season 5.

I'm also not worried about the series becoming a joke. As long as they keep telling the story, it'll be fine.

[A'shaman]

This is how I'd do it.

Season 1) AGOT

Season 2) ACOK

Season 3) ASOS up until a certain wedding. Wouldn't that make a season finale to remember?

Season 4) The rest of ASOS, plus the Iron Islands chapters up until the Kingsmoot. The Shield Islands Victarion chapter will have to wait until the next season.

Season 5) AFFC/ADWD minus most of the Iron Islands chapters.

Season 6) AFFC/ADWD

That's a great outline. Not sure about two seasons for AFFC/ADWD (minus most Greyjoys). Damn HBO and their ten-episode plan for Game Of Thrones.

[merveilleux]

7 seasons for 7 books is overstretching it already, I can even try to see them cutting things to make it 6 seasons for the whole saga.

7 seasons for 7 books is overstretching because it would require GRRM to finish the series in 6 years – and that's assuming they do one season a year. I'll be impressed if TWoW is out by the time they (hypothetically) film aDwD.

Which brings up an interesting question: if the show is wildly successful and breaks the mold, yada yada yada, and HBO catches up, where would you end the story?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Which brings up an interesting question: if the show is wildly successful and breaks the mold, yada yada yada, and HBO catches up, where would you end the story?

Hmm... Obviously I can't answer this question completely until I've read aDwD, but as it stands the best place to end for nearly all of the character arcs is actually the end of a Storm of Swords.

Most of the characters' arcs are reasonably resolved, or they've gone off to some new adventure. The cliffhangers aren't as annoying as in either earlier or later books. It will certainly leave the audience hanging, though...

I suppose in the worst case they could make up an ending. Honestly I don't know how much of a Dance with Dragons and onward will be filmable on HBO's budget. I mean we've got dragons the size of horses, and probably some dragon riding going on (unless they are all killed).

[Reposado]

7 seasons for 7 books is overstretching because it would require GRRM to finish the series in 6 years – and that's assuming they do one season a year. I'll be impressed if TWoW is out by the time they (hypothetically) film aDwD.

Which brings up an interesting question: if the show is wildly successful and breaks the mold, yada yada yada, and HBO catches up, where would you end the story?

Even 8 seasons for 7 books would be out of the question if they do one a year. HBO has given often given shows a year and a half between seasons. eg Curb Your Enthusiasm, coming back next week, is starting a season 20 months after the last one started. If they started doing that it would give Martin more time, but realistically, how soon do we think the books will be finished? 10 years? That's my hopeful estimate.

What might be interesting would be to bring back the gap, literally. Do four seasons for the three books. (I think this is a logical stopping point, after finishing ASOS back in 01, I felt extremely satisfied with how things ended up) Then they take a 4ish year break from filming, cutout or pushback the events that take place in the gap, and film another 3 seasons. Some roles would have to be recast if actors have moved on. Would HBO do that? Probably not but they could leave the option, and at the worst, you've ended the series at logical stopping point and viewers that need to know what happened could be pointed towards the books.

The only other option, if they want to shoot the whole series, is to go to 18-24 month gap between seasons(which brings in the aging problems of the child actors) and praying Martin finishes the series in 8-9 years.

Of course I think the most likely scenario is that the TV series ends with ADWD. 5 books, 6 seasons and that is it.

[mr. peasant]

Even 8 seasons for 7 books would be out of the question if they do one a year. HBO has given often given shows a year and a half between seasons. eg Curb Your Enthusiasm, coming back next week, is starting a season 20 months after the last one started. If they started doing that it would give Martin more time, but realistically, how soon do we think the books will be finished? 10 years? That's my hopeful estimate.

While this shows it can be done, I don't think it's a common arrangement; or even one that's particularly desirable. Taking a year's hiatus increases the risk of losing viewers since they might start watching something else in that gap year and choose to stick with that instead. For instance, Doctor Who took a year's gap between 2008 and 2010 and upon returning, lost 1/8 of its viewing audience in the U.K. despite having several specials in between to keep interest alive. And this is Doctor Who, which is regarded as a British national treasure and a show that is regularly discussed on radio and TV talk shows. While Curb Your Enthusiasm shows it can work, the Doctor Who example shows that it can be a risky move.

What might be interesting would be to bring back the gap, literally. Do four seasons for the three books. (I think this is a logical stopping point, after finishing ASOS back in 01, I felt extremely satisfied with how things ended up) Then they take a 4ish year break from filming, cutout or pushback the events that take place in the gap, and film another 3 seasons. Some roles would have to be recast if actors have moved on. Would HBO do that? Probably not but they could leave the option, and at the worst, you've ended the series at logical stopping point and viewers that need to know what happened could be pointed towards the books.

I'm sorry to say but I think taking a four year break is probably the worst idea I've heard. Due to the higher turnover of television shows and how quickly audiences tend to move onto new things once a show gets cancelled, this would be like starting over again in terms of hype and garnering a following. Moreover, unlike a novel which only really requires one person's continued involvement, a TV show requires multiple parties to return (specifically the main actors). Getting everyone back would be virtually impossible as many would likely have moved onto new projects, not want to return so as not to get typecasted, or have conflicting schedules. From a producer's standpoint, it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle trying to restart a show after such a long break.

I think a likelier outcome is that the creators might simply decide to deviate from the books, should it become apparent that GRRM is unable to deliver the remaining novels in time to be adapted. While they have previously expressed the desire to remain faithful, their priority is to the show itself first and foremost, and not the books. If it's deemed that sticking to the novels is not viable or in the show's best interest (which can occur from any number of reasons), they simply won't. As it is, I can't think of any multi-season TV series that is/was adapted from a book series and remained faithful to it.

[Which Tyler]

So far, absolutely nobody has given a justification for why 7-9 season will not happen.

This is not a show to be confused with something like Lost or Deadwood where the screenwriters are making it up as they go along, season by season. It's a well planned out 7 book epic, with story arcs designed to last, with good closer designed in at that point.

If it's making them money, HBO will finance it. If it's getting critical acclaim, the actors will keep coming back to it. If it sticks to the story (and if spoiler-free reviews of ADWD are accurate), than the viewers will keep tuning in.

Of course, there's the issue of catching up to GRRM; but I'm not too concerned about that. By all reports, he's past the most difficult stage of writing, the characters are as diverse, and spread out as they ever will be, and are now condensing towards a conclusion; he's done his rewritten plan of what happens when and who goes where, and he's just got to put the meat on the bones now (as opposed to a Meerenese knot and a complete rewrite of a story as he ditches a 5 year gap); and it seems his motivation and enthusiasm has been rekindled by the series. OK, I don't expect him to write at the same pace that saw 3 books in 6 years; but 2 books in 6 years seems perfectly realistic. Either way; I'm sure that if the show does catch up to the books, TWOW will be out already and ADOS will be largely written, and certainly planned in detail; which the show would be able to use and adapt; it just wouldn't necessarily contain many direct quotes, as season 1 has

TBH, I'm more concerned about the last 2 books turning into 3; and THEN catching up becomes more of an obstacle; though there would still be a skeleton book for the screenwriters to use - if GRRM allows

[Iotun]

7 to 9 seasons cannot be done, because there's simply not that much material to stretch that many seasons for individual characters to not make the seasons boring.

Look, the size of Martin's work is based much more on the fact that he's showing so many point of view characters at the same time. However the individual stories of characters are NOT that long. The things that Dany, or Jon, or Catelyn, or Jaime, or Tyrion, by themselves as individuals do, is not that much in the first three books - the problem is that we have to see all of them, plus a myriad of other characters.

This is ok for a book, but for a TV show:

- They cannot show TOO many characters for budget reasons.

- They will not want to be hiding important characters for long stretches of time. We know that they're already thinking of expanding the roles of Robb and Jaime in the second season, because they don't want the audience to forget the characters, and because its difficult to find actors willing to get into such a commitment otherwise. It is thus unlikely that we'll see major characters disappearing completely for more than 2 or maybe 3 episodes, let along whole seasons.

- Thus assuming that characters like Jon and Dany will be appearing at least every couple of episodes, there's simply not enough material there for individual characters to stretch for more than 3 seasons. This will either mean that they'll have to start creating extra material on their own, cutting out characters for long periods of time, or end up with individual character stories not moving forward. If you've been following the comments of people unspoiled to the series, many expect Dany to be landing in Westeros by next season. I have to wonder if the series will still have any credibility if by season 5 or 6, one of the major developments expected from season 1, has not yet happened (i.e. the Others or Dany making a move).

It seems people think of stretching to more than 6 seasons by expecting that HBO will be covering all the characters and stroylines in the way the books do. But they won't, they'll want to stay much more focused than the books.

I'd personally suggest 6 seasons.

Season 1: GoT

Season 2: CoK

Season 3: 13 episodes, all of SoS

Season 4: 14-16 episodes, FfC and DwD combined

Season 5 and Season 6: remaining two books.

They could potentially have seasons be 15 months in between or so, to stretch out the time in between seasons. But assuming season 5 starts in 4 years from now, it means Martin has 5 years to finish the last two books in the series. Personally I think that if he starts writing at the pace he used to, he can do it, and it can wrap up at the same time as the TV show.But I REALLY don't see the show stretching for more than 7 seasons.

[MadTerriers]

The most popular option I've been seeing proposed is to combine and intermix AFFC and ADWD, then split them into two seasons (likely Seasons 4-5). However, a potential problem with that is the lack of material for some storylines. Take a character like Sansa, for example. She has less than a handful of chapters where nothing much at all happens. Now, take that threadbare plot and stretch it out over 20 episodes and 2 years. Or look at Brienne, and try to stretch her wanderings over two seasons. A little more happens in Kings Landing...but even there a certain funeral would drag on throughout most of Season Four.

Granted, not all the AFFC characters will be in every episode of both proposed seasons. And maybe there will be enough juicy material in ADWD to fill in some of the gaps...

Determining the split between the two seasons is also tricky. There aren't many mid-book cliffhangers in AFFC (really only the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines have some sort of mid-book climax). Again, maybe some ADWD material will be able to swoop in and save the day. (Or invented filler characters...The Adventures of Ros!) Otherwise, Season Four is just going to slowly fizzle out...

[j52y]

The most popular option I've been seeing proposed is to combine and intermix AFFC and ADWD, then split them into two seasons (likely Seasons 4-5). However, a potential problem with that is the lack of material for some storylines. Take a character like Sansa, for example. She has less than a handful of chapters where nothing much at all happens. Now, take that threadbare plot and stretch it out over 20 episodes and 2 years. Or look at Brienne, and try to stretch her wanderings over two seasons. A little more happens in Kings Landing...but even there a certain funeral would drag on throughout most of Season Four.

Granted, not all the AFFC characters will be in every episode of both proposed seasons. And maybe there will be enough juicy material in ADWD to fill in some of the gaps...

Determining the split between the two seasons is also tricky. There aren't many mid-book cliffhangers in AFFC (really only the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines have some sort of mid-book climax). Again, maybe some ADWD material will be able to swoop in and save the day. (Or invented filler characters...The Adventures of Ros!) Otherwise, Season Four is just going to slowly fizzle out...

Well, I don't think Brienne's journey is gonna last two seasons. You've gotta split the storylines. Like, the end of season 4 (were I doing it) would have the cliffhangers as:

The Iron Born attacking the High Garden

Loras leaving for Dragonstone

Jon becoming Lord Commander

Arya leaving to be Cat in the canals

Brienne's last word

Littlefinger convincing the lords of the Eyrie to let him be for a year

I mean, they're going to have to give Arya, Sansa, and Bran a little more to do, but they still won't be in season 4 or 5 as much as they are in other seasons (well, except for maybe Bran).

Something I would favor is making season 4 a double season. This is something that other HBO shows such as OZ and The Sopranos have done, which is to have a season that is double the length of a normal season, but air it in two parts (as though it were two separate seasons), but together they'd make one complete thought.

[j52y]

The most popular option I've been seeing proposed is to combine and intermix AFFC and ADWD, then split them into two seasons (likely Seasons 4-5). However, a potential problem with that is the lack of material for some storylines. Take a character like Sansa, for example. She has less than a handful of chapters where nothing much at all happens. Now, take that threadbare plot and stretch it out over 20 episodes and 2 years. Or look at Brienne, and try to stretch her wanderings over two seasons. A little more happens in Kings Landing...but even there a certain funeral would drag on throughout most of Season Four.

Granted, not all the AFFC characters will be in every episode of both proposed seasons. And maybe there will be enough juicy material in ADWD to fill in some of the gaps...

Determining the split between the two seasons is also tricky. There aren't many mid-book cliffhangers in AFFC (really only the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines have some sort of mid-book climax). Again, maybe some ADWD material will be able to swoop in and save the day. (Or invented filler characters...The Adventures of Ros!) Otherwise, Season Four is just going to slowly fizzle out...

Well, I don't think Brienne's journey is gonna last two seasons. You've gotta split the storylines. Like, the end of season 4 (were I doing it) would have the cliffhangers as:

The Iron Born attacking the High Garden

Loras leaving for Dragonstone

Jon becoming Lord Commander

Arya leaving to be Cat in the canals

Brienne's last word

Littlefinger convincing the lords of the Eyrie to let him be for a year

And whatever other characters are doing in A Dance with Dragons

I mean, they're going to have to give Arya, Sansa, and Bran a little more to do, but they still won't be in season 4 or 5 as much as they are in other seasons (well, except for maybe Bran).

Something I would favor is making season 4 a double season. This is something that other HBO shows such as OZ and The Sopranos have done, which is to have a season that is double the length of a normal season, but air it in two parts (as though it were two separate seasons), but together they'd make one complete thought.

[mr. peasant]

Something I would favor is making season 4 a double season. This is something that other HBO shows such as OZ and The Sopranos have done, which is to have a season that is double the length of a normal season, but air it in two parts (as though it were two separate seasons), but together they'd make one complete thought.

Which means nothing to television viewers. If it airs like to separate seasons, they will view it as such, with all the same pacing problems as splitting it into two seasons.

I mean, they're going to have to give Arya, Sansa, and Bran a little more to do, but they still won't be in season 4 or 5 as much as they are in other seasons (well, except for maybe Bran).

Which I think would be a mistake since TV shows tend to be as much, if not more, character-focused than plot-focused.

[MadTerriers]

Well, I don't think Brienne's journey is gonna last two seasons. You've gotta split the storylines. Like, the end of season 4 (were I doing it) would have the cliffhangers as:

The Iron Born attacking the High Garden

Loras leaving for Dragonstone

Jon becoming Lord Commander

Arya leaving to be Cat in the canals

Brienne's last word

Littlefinger convincing the lords of the Eyrie to let him be for a year

And whatever other characters are doing in A Dance with Dragons

But if you do this, you start running into the problems that caused GRRM such a headache these past 10+ years. Either the character storylines get out of sync, or nothing happens to certain characters for a looong time. So, for example, above you delay Jon's ASOS finale until the end of S4. That ends up compressing the storylines of Sam, Stannis, Melisandre, etc. Meanwhile, Brienne ends her arc in S4, and is literally left hanging for all S5....