Another question about Ramsey Bolton!

[Judy C]

I just finished a Clash of Kings. I'm very confused about Roose and Ramsey Bolton. I thot Roose Bolton was a northman, and therefore a "friend of Winterfell". Why would his son burn it to the ground? Was it just to hurt Theon? Or is it that these two as like Littlefinger - out for themselves?

[The Faceless Men]

I just finished a Clash of Kings. I'm very confused about Roose and Ramsey Bolton. I thot Roose Bolton was a northman, and therefore a "friend of Winterfell". Why would his son burn it to the ground? Was it just to hurt Theon? Or is it that these two as like Littlefinger - out for themselves?

I need someone to explain this to me as well. Unless we're not supposed to find out right now, then don't tell us. Also i was confused at that whole part. Who attacked winterfell? I thought Reek was going to get help, did they kill him and decide to burn Winterfell? What happened in that part? Also is Theon dead? Don't tell me if he isn't... but i really hope he is.

[The Mountain That Glides]

I'll try to explain it as best I can without any spoilers.

Earlier in the book, Ser Rodrik goes out to set Ramsey and his servant, 'Reek' straight. However, they traded places (I assume, or maybe they just lied about their identities when Rodrik came) and Rodrik ended up killing Reek who he THOUGHT was Ramsey, and bring 'Reek' back as a prisoner, who was, in reality, Ramsey Snow.

Ramsey generally doesn't give a damn either way about the alliances of the north, he's out for himself, and currently, he's a prisoner. But then, look, an idiot takes over Winterfell! Well, this seems like a perfect opportunity to Ramsey, and he pledges himself to Theon, until he can earn his trust enough to get free and go rally his men. And then he comes back and you know, liek, kills people 'n' stuff.

He's a pretty bad guy.

[The Faceless Men]

I'll try to explain it as best I can without any spoilers.

Earlier in the book, Ser Rodrik goes out to set Ramsey and his servant, 'Reek' straight. However, they traded places (I assume, or maybe they just lied about their identities when Rodrik came) and Rodrik ended up killing Reek who he THOUGHT was Ramsey, and bring 'Reek' back as a prisoner, who was, in reality, Ramsey Snow.

Ramsey generally doesn't give a damn either way about the alliances of the north, he's out for himself, and currently, he's a prisoner. But then, look, an idiot takes over Winterfell! Well, this seems like a perfect opportunity to Ramsey, and he pledges himself to Theon, until he can earn his trust enough to get free and go rally his men. And then he comes back and you know, liek, kills people 'n' stuff.

He's a pretty bad guy.

Why didn't he take Winterfell for himself though? He just sacked the city. Don't see the point unless you plan to hold it.

[The Mountain That Glides]

I'm not entirely sure on this one, but there could be multiple reasons. Most likely, though, he was just doing what Theon should have done: Taken prisoners, razed Winterfell, and then gtfo back to the Dreadfort. The practical reason is he'd have his full army in familiar territory and far, far better defenses. And Winterfell is a big target, thus making it harder to hold.

That's my theory, atleast. I'm just guessing on that one.

[Lucreel]

I think it's partly just revenge. Remember, Ramsay tried to take over the title and lands of, err, was it Lady Harwood, or something like that? The widow who came to Winterfell and spoke with Brandon, Ser Rodrik, and Maester Luwin. Ser Rodrik road out, and basically 'evicted' Ramsay from the Harwood(?) estates.

I think that Ramsay is just generally P.O.ed at the world, and decided this was the perfect opportunity to kill Ser Rodrik and his forces. As for burning Winterfell, I think that's to limit the ability of Winterfell to quickly mount a reprisal, and as someone else said, I think Ramsay was smart enough to know he'd never be able to *hold* Winterfell - he wasn't stupid enough to repeat Theon's main strategic mistake; never take a castle/stronghold you have no hope of defending.

There is a small part of me which wonder's if he's in league with his father, Roose Bolton. Roose is, *apparently* loyal to Robb, but I have a lot of doubts about him - I suspect he's an opportunist, awaiting his chance to betray Robb, and take over the throne of the North himself. I think he's only loyal so far as he doesn't want to bend the knee to Joffrey, so he's fighting with Robb *against* the Lannisters. I might be wrong - I admit I don't have a whole lot to go by, but we know a couple things:

1) IIRC, seems like I read one of the charaters recalling that there's a centuries old conflict between the Bolton's and the Starks over the claim to the Northern Kingdom.

Putting next point in spoilers, because I don't remember if this comes from the end of ACoK or the beginning of ASoS:

2) Bolton seems to have a very sadistic and power hungry disposition. He seemed much less like Stark in his character, and much more like Ser Gregor - when he took Harranhall, he put those girls in the stocks for the 'entertainment' of his men-at-arms, killed household servants and the head smith - all for simply doing what they had to in order to survive - it's not like the servants or the girls could have refused to cooperate during the Lannister 'occupation'. Bolton is an evil, evil dude and I wouldn't trust him one bit.

Anyhow, from what we definitely know, the most likely motive appears to be revenge/spite, but it's hard to say what Ramsay's motives really were when sacking Winterfell. We don't really know if he and his father get along, or if they are enemies (his father made some sort of dismissive comment when informed that Ser Rodrik had killed Ramsay, indicating he didn't care for the boy and had nothing to do with him, but that might have just been 'keeping up appearances').

[twistedlittlemonkeydemon]

Just finished CoK and I think that by the end of the book the reader is supposed to believe Ramsay Bolton to be an anarchist, and that he has sacked Winterfell as an act of defiance / revenge ... I suspect though that he and his father, Roose Bolton, are hatching a plan to try and take the North for themselves.

I have to admit, I was left a little confused by the character of Roose Bolton -- when he takes Harrenhal / meets Arya, he is clearly quite creepy, sinister and just how loyal he is to the Stark cause is questionable ... yet there must have been a reason that Robb selected him to lead his force - surely Robb & the other Northmen must have had some faith in his loyalty or they would have left another of his generals to lead that army?

[kav2001c]

Without getting too much into spoiler realms; it seems pretty obvious the Boltons in general are out for themselves. The old survival of the fittest kind of people. They only support the Starks because Eddard is strong. I do not think Roose ever showed himself as a generally good guy (I mean cmon, his symbol is the flayed man, and both he and his bastard Ramsey really get off on torture). Roose does not seem to like Ramsey much but seems ok with using him to do stuff Roose himself can't do.

[Silmarien]

I just finished a Clash of Kings. I'm very confused about Roose and Ramsey Bolton. I thot Roose Bolton was a northman, and therefore a "friend of Winterfell". Why would his son burn it to the ground? Was it just to hurt Theon? Or is it that these two as like Littlefinger - out for themselves?

Recall that Ramsay also forcefully married Lady Hornwood and allowed her to starve to death, just to claim her lands. Ramsay is not a nice person.

Roose Bolton is indeed one of the Stark bannermen. But he seems to be self-serving rather than loyal. Keep reading, you'll find out his true nature in ASoS, and even more in ADWD.

[Xios]

I have to admit, I was left a little confused by the character of Roose Bolton -- when he takes Harrenhal / meets Arya, he is clearly quite creepy, sinister and just how loyal he is to the Stark cause is questionable ... yet there must have been a reason that Robb selected him to lead his force - surely Robb & the other Northmen must have had some faith in his loyalty or they would have left another of his generals to lead that army?

I believe there is a part in GoT where Robb is trying to decide which of his bannermen should be used in certain roles. He discusses this with Catelyn and decides to use Roose because of his cunning as oppose to UmberJohn, who was more likely to react and charge head on. Basically, Roose's strength is that he is a cold, hard calculating general which was what Robb needed at the time.

As for Ramsey interaction with Roose, something in the writing gave me the impression that they may be coordinating with one another. Specifically it had to do with the letter Roose sent to Robb after what happened to "Ramsey".

[lylebot]

From GoT, Catelyn VIII:

"The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell," he said thoughfully. "Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don't want someone fearless, do I?"

"No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage."

"Roose Bolton," Robb said at once. "That man scares me."

Nice foreshadowing.

[Kate Poem]

Ramsay is in my eyes the evilest person in all Westeros. I can't say more without spoilers, but his treatment of poor lady Hornwood spoke very much about his personality.

This creature must die.

[belledame]

i just finished it and the connection btw roose and ramsey is a bit confusing. clearly, they are both cruel people. but roose is cold and methodical. ramsey seems to lean more towards mayhem and cunning. ramsey explained quite clearly that he and reek had raped - and apparently killed - some girl before he realized that ser rodrik & co. had arrived to arrest him. he convinced reek to switch clothes and head for home. ser rodrik killed reek thinking he was ramsey and arrested ramsey thinking he was reek. once he arrived at winterfell, ramsey was kept in the dungeon until theon arrived. he capitalized on theon's attempted takeover and brought his own men in to kill off ser rodrik's host and take down winterfell himself.

i did not get the sense that roose and ramsey are working together. but i don't understand roose's letter to robb denouncing ramsey and his actions against lady hornwood. of all the horrible things that happen in this book, roose ordering all the women at harrenhall who'd slept with lannister soldiers clamped in stocks to be raped by any man interested was the one thing that made me shudder.

[Antonius Pius]

Ramsay is not a nice person.

Understatement of the year.

Roose Bolton is indeed one of the Stark bannermen. But he seems to be self-serving rather than loyal. Keep reading, you'll find out his true nature in ASoS, and even more in ADWD.

Quite true.

i did not get the sense that roose and ramsey are working together. but i don't understand roose's letter to robb denouncing ramsey and his actions against lady hornwood. of all the horrible things that happen in this book, roose ordering all the women at harrenhall who'd slept with lannister soldiers clamped in stocks to be raped by any man interested was the one thing that made me shudder.

Roose is indeed cold and cunning. He doesn't give a fig about Ramsay either, but since his only trueborn son (Domeric) died before AGOT, he has no heir. So he uses Ramsay, but that's it. If Ramsay can weaken the Starks' power in the North while he's away in the South, all the better.

[Kate Poem]

I think it's partly just revenge. Remember, Ramsay tried to take over the title and lands of, err, was it Lady Harwood, or something like that? The widow who came to Winterfell and spoke with Brandon, Ser Rodrik, and Maester Luwin. Ser Rodrik road out, and basically 'evicted' Ramsay from the Harwood(?) estates.

I am sorry, but You are wrong. Maybe ser Rodrik wanted "evict" Ramsay from Hornwood estate, but it is fruitless. Ramsay married Lady Hornwood before septon and under hearttree, after that he bedded her, "wedding's" guests witnessed, he forced her to name him her heir, locked his bride in the tower and starved poor lady to death.

Nobody can't take Hornwood from Boltons.

[zmflavius]

I am sorry, but You are wrong. Maybe ser Rodrik wanted "evict" Ramsay from Hornwood estate, but it is fruitless. Ramsay married Lady Hornwood before septon and under hearttree, after that he bedded her, "wedding's" guests witnessed, he forced her to name him her heir, locked his bride in the tower and starved poor lady to death.

Nobody can't take Hornwood from Boltons.

Actually, it's mentioned that vows made under duress are not necessarily valid. This is doubly true when the beneficiary is someone as nasty as Ramsay, and who also is guilty of numerous horrific crimes. Even if there were no legal option for declaring the marriage null and void, Robb could simply declare Ramsay a criminal, strip him of all lands and titles, and give said lands and titles to the proper heir.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Why didn't he take Winterfell for himself though? He just sacked the city. Don't see the point unless you plan to hold it.

Because then he couldn't blame it on Theon. If he had held Winterfell, everyone would've known he had betrayed the Starks. By sacking Winterfell, he destroyed the Stark's seat of power (the Boltons & Starks ARE ancient enemies after all. Stark pelts still hang in the Dreadfort, allegedly), and was able to blame it all on the Ironmen. Had he taken credit for it, the game would've been up.

In other words, Ramsay is an opportunist. The Boltons have no love for the Starks, and Ramsay was given the perfect opportunity to destroy them, so he did.

Throughout history (in Europe & Westeros), neighboring Houses were generally rivals, and only allied together for a greater cause. Blood feuds, land disputes, power struggles, etc... usually soured relationships between neighbors over the course of centuries (think Hatfields & McCoys in America). The Starks & Boltons had been fighting each other for centuries before the Dragonlords ever showed up. And even though the Boltons eventually bent the knee to the Starks, centuries of bad blood still existed between the two. You can sign a treaty, but you can't erase history.

[Kate Poem]

Actually, it's mentioned that vows made under duress are not necessarily valid. This is doubly true when the beneficiary is someone as nasty as Ramsay, and who also is guilty of numerous horrific crimes. Even if there were no legal option for declaring the marriage null and void, Robb could simply declare Ramsay a criminal, strip him of all lands and titles, and give said lands and titles to the proper heir.

Yes, he could. He should! But Robb was busy and send Ser Rodrik, ser Rodrik killed "Ramsay", did'nt kill "Reek" (why?) etc. etc.

Situation was'nt clear... who was proper heir of lady Hornwood? That bastard or other? Maybe cousin, but which?

[mediocre cheese]

Throughout history (in Europe & Westeros), neighboring Houses were generally rivals, and only allied together for a greater cause. Blood feuds, land disputes, power struggles, etc... usually soured relationships between neighbors over the course of centuries (think Hatfields & McCoys in America).

The hatfields and mccoys they were feudin mountain boys. IIRC the feud started over a pig, not a land dispute or a power struggle.

ser Rodrik killed "Ramsay", did'nt kill "Reek" (why?)

He needed "reek" as a witness to say openly that the marriage between ramsay and lady hornwood was made at swordpoint and thus invalid. If he killed reek he would have had no proof and Roose might use this as a way to claim the hornwood lands.

[Bastard Walder]

From GoT, Catelyn VIII:

Nice foreshadowing.

I understand what you're referring to but I don't think that's foreshadowing.