[ADwD Spoilers] Is the letter real?

[Yarl Snow]

Arguably the very end of Jon's final chapter is an even bigger deal then the letter he receives from Ramsay, but I tend to think Jon will be just fine so I'm much more interested in this. What I really wonder is; (as the topic title suggests) is the letter real?

On the fake side: Ramsay has a history of lying about deaths of important people. There is potential gain by tricking Jon to deliver himself to Ramsay. And if Ramsay won, shouldn't he have recaptured Theon and Jenny Poole? How did they get away?

On the real side: GRRM likes surprise killings. Ramsay had to have at least survived the battle in order to be in a position to write the letter. There's no way he would've known Abel was Mance Ryder unless he had in fact caught him. I'm unclear if Lightbringer was widely known of in the North already or if Ramsay had to have gotten a hold of it to know its "magic".

I really don't know what to think; this whole chapter hit me as a bigger gut punch than even the Red Wedding. I'm hoping that the truth is that the weather just made the battle inconclusive and that the Boltons ended up having to retreat to Winterfell and that Ramsay decided that maybe there'd be gain by tricking Jon into delivering hostages. But I just can't make up my mind. What do ya'll think?

He asks for Stannis' queen, daughter and Melisandre, for Val and for "his little prince". Hostages all, now why would he care about them if Stannis was alive? Also, if Mance was broken and had given all this information, why would he still claim Craster's son was his own? (He did know, right?)

It seems to me to be a desperate attempt to provoke Jon, to possibly get some hostages from him. It does not seem likely that Manderly would attack Stannis, especially with Davos being sent out by him to bring Rickon home.

What does not make sense is that he would lie about Stannis, when it stands to reason that Stannis and Jeyne would be in the same place. If Jon had Jeyne, Stannis would be there too.

[Faint]

Honestly, why would we ever assume Stannis is dead when we have the prophecy at the House of the Undying to fall back on? Having received our Mummer's dragon in this book I have no cause to doubt the rest of the prophecy. Which means, in short, that Daenerys must be the one to do away with Stannis. I suppose there is always the possibility that Stannis dies only to be revived as a wight which Daenerys must kill . . . still, the point remains, we have not seen the last of Stannis.

[Howling North]

and way too much Theon.

You just don't like him, but his chapters were very well-written in my opinion, they gave real insight into the dark underbelly of the North.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I loved all the North chapters, Davos, Bran, Jon, Theon, Asha, because there was a central narrative that tied them all together.

The Essos chapters were all over the place.

[Mark3]

Anyway, it is a stupid way to end a book, and a slap in the face of the reader....It is not too much to demand a real resolution to these plot points.

Instead, we get tons and tons of snow, stupid talk between Asha and disgusting secondary characters, and way too much Theon.

Have to agree. I really, really enjoyed the read, but the endings of the storylines all lacked any resolution whatsoever. Not cool. Even in a serialized series, each novel should have its own arc and resolution, and cliffhangers are cheap as all hell.

After reading this interview with Anne Groell (GRRM's editor), it sounds like most of the blame is on her. The interviewer asks her about how much material was pushed to Book 6, and she replies:

Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. And so much great stuff had happened already that no one, I felt, could be unsatisfied by the developments. So he voluntarily pulled one big sequence out of the book. I lobbied for another…and it came out, too.

So two major sequences were cut from the book. I would guess that these were some sort of climax/resolutions to the whole North/Mereen crises. It shows because all this stuff builds up for 1000 pages in Dance and we get zero resolution on these plot threads.

[jxd]

Wouldn't the first person Bolton would send word to be Tommen? There's no mention of it in the epilogue.

[Maltaran]

Wouldn't the first person Bolton would send word to be Tommen? There's no mention of it in the epilogue.

King's Landing is further from Winterfell than Castle Black is, maybe the news hasn't reached them yet.

[Thefalconemperor]

I tend to think he (Stannis) is dead simply because Jon will obviously be brought back to life in a way or another. Two fake death scares per book is too much.

[Howling North]

I actually like the Dany, Meereen, Cersei and Jaime ending. And I don't care about Jon. I can predict what is going to happen there rather easily. But I'm really pissed about this letter thing. That was pointless and a deliberate slap in the face.

Still on that I see? I for one will find it VERY interesting if this gives us a chance to explore warging a bit more, especially with Bran getting his first lessons as a greenseer, so I don't expect Jon's plot to be resolved in a typical or quick manner, especially given what we know of warging so far, Jon will have a hard enough time surviving even if he is 'alive'.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Oh come on, this book had way more than 2 fake death already.

We had the fake Tyrion death by drowning, fake baby Aegon death, Brienne's death proven fake. Fake Davos death. Dany rumored dead but is not.

So what's another one.

[Fez]

Oh come on, this book had way more than 2 fake death already.

We had the fake Tyrion death by drowning, fake baby Aegon death, Brienne's death proven fake. Fake Davos death. Dany rumored dead but is not.

So what's another one.

The difference (except for Brienne's) is that none of those occur at the end of the book, so they lack a certain finality to them. Books don't just end, they end where author's want them to end (or where they compromise with their editors about where they should end) and if that end is on a "death" that event is being emphasized by virtue of where it occurs in the narrative. If that Tyrion drowning was at the end of his last chapter in the book like Jon's, then I would be concerned he died all the way until the next book was in my hands.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

But we didn't see Stannis die, just somebody claiming that he died. It's no different from the claim that Jaime is dead. Jon was a cliff-hanger potential death, Stannis and Jaime are just rumored dead.

[Marsala]

There's no way that a seven-day battle that resulted in Stannis's death could have happened off-page while two POVs were present to witness it.

[silkeno]

It's possible that the host Roose Bolton sent out to meet Stannis immediately went over to Stannis when they discovered that the Arya deceit (a lot of Bolton's host was already wavering on treachery to start with), and then between them they hatched a plot for them to march back to Winterfell apparently triumphant only to wait and then surprise attack forces loyal to the Boltons once inside - much easier than assaulting Winterfell.

The upshot being that Ramsay believes all he is saying about victory. As for why he's sending the message rather than his father, well a Psychopath like Ramsay would put a dagger in his father's back as soon as spit, it's only a matter of when.

[Basileus777]

I tend to think he (Stannis) is dead simply because Jon will obviously be brought back to life in a way or another. Two fake death scares per book is too much.

It is too much, but that hasn't stopped Martin before. He loves his false cliffhangers, look at how the cliffhangers from AFFC turned out.

[Whitering]

I have been mulling this over. I think we will see a remembrance of the battle in the next book. The timeline may slightly overlap.

Also, Stannis had with him several thousand clansmen that thought of the storm as little more than an inconvenience and know the terrain around Winterfell better than anyone now living. There is no way they were caught unawares, even if Bolton did attack during the storm. I think Bolton lost and Ramsay is scheming for any advantage he can get.

I think Mel would know if Stannis died no matter that she has pretty much only been seeing John.

Is John being set up to the next Nightking? Is Mel his mystic lady that will make him undead? A bit looney, but there you go.

[Basileus777]

The timeline already overlaps, Arya seems to still be way ahead of everyone else. I don't see why Martin can't show the events in real time if that's what he wants to do.

[Lord Varys]

I meant that I don't care that much about Jon's death, as it is evident that this will not be an ultimate and final death. If it is, well, then this whole character was pointless to begin with, and then I'll be really pissed. You can't kill of the main character of a book series after four/five volumes.

But Stannis, well, I like that guy. And if he has to die, he should have the opportunity to die onscreen, like Ned, Viserys, Tywin, Kevan, Quentyn and all the rest of them. And I admit it, it would sicken me to believe that this man died by the hands of those treacherous Bolton scum.

As to Theon, yeah, there was pretty decent inside stuff on the Bolton machine there, but it was stretched too long. I don't see the point in that. The marriage is at about the half of the book, and this whole supposed battle thing is still 400 pages away. I really expected from this book to deal with both the Manderly and the Karstark betrayal.

The major event moved to TWoW would be the Dornish reaction to Aegon's arrival in Westeros. As far as we know there were three Arianne chapters (possibly consisting of her decision - with or against Doran, I bet with him, as Dorne has to throw in its lot with Aegon or bury all thoughts of Fire and Blood and vengeance - to court Aegon at Storm's End and her travel by ship to the Stormlands to meet with him and Connington) and one Aeron and one Sansa chapter. All those chapters likely have little and less to do with the stuff in the North. Although there is a small chance that the resolution to the Stannis arc is in the Aeron chapter if he, Asha and Theon meet with him at Torrhen's Square in that chapter.

It is also clear now that the Golden Company was supposed to arrive in Westeros earlier until that was moved in the last part of the book. Which in turn forced the Arianne chapters into TWoW. I'm not sure about that decision by the way.

But the British edition of the book is way thicker than the Bantam edition. The latter could have easily have 200-300 pages more. The HC edition on the other hand seems to be at its limits...

[Gaston de Foix]

It makes me believe that Roose is dead. He is too smart to admit that he lost his pet Stark.

On the other hand it seems quite possible that the Boltons believe that they have won the battle. The Manderlys could have brought them the magic sword after sadly losing most of the Freys.

I doubt Roose is dead. 7 days of battle makes sense if you consider the snow. The calculation that the Boltons must make is that having lost Arya Stark, they must recover her immediately and give battle to Stannis in the hope of recovering of her. They'll probably blame Theon for kidnapping her. It seems to me that retreat even with Jeyne Poole captured by Stannis is not an option. Stannis will fight and having fought, may well lose. Here's what I think is indisputably true. Ramsay has Mance, and has those of the surviving washer women and may well have flayed them. Manderly is waiting for Davos to find Rickon before he does anything. The northern lords are not sufficient to beat the combined strength of Bolton etc. On the other hand, Jon sent a letter to Deepwood Motte warning of treachery from Arnolf Karstark, so unless somehow Sybelle Glover failed to give the letter together with Asha's surviving men to the braavosi banker, Arnolf Karstark is toast. Stannis will probably burn him, and put his men in the vanguard to face the Boltons. But the snow helps the northmen, particularly Roose. They have supplies, Stannis does not. The southron knights have lost their horses. But maybe this is is Dyrrachium all over again. Stannis' men have to fight and win or die. Roose' can retreat to Winterfell.

It would be unfortunate if Stannis' dies at Ramsay's hands. He deserves to die on the Wall with Davos at his side.

[Howling North]

Wyman's dead isn't he? So whose going to give the order to betray the Boltons?