[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 3

[Xray the Enforcer]

A discussion of the third Jon chapter. Do not discuss events from later in the book.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Am I the only one who was surprised to see Mance go out the way he did? I was expecting him to be defiant right to the end--or to resign himself to his fate, at the very least. Mance pleading for mercy and "denying all that he had ever been", as Jon put it, was pretty surprising to me.

[The Anti-Targ]

Am I the only one who was surprised to see Mance go out the way he did? I was expecting him to be defiant right to the end--or to resign himself to his fate, at the very least. Mance pleading for mercy and "denying all that he had ever been", as Jon put it, was pretty surprising to me.

I felt it was a bit anti-climactic. I was hoping for a Mel, Stannis or Jon chapter to at least engage him in conversation before he met his fate. That he had to die was without question. No one can suffer a deserter from the NW to live, it's only the manner of his death that was in question. Glad that Jon gave him a swift-ish death.

This is about Bran, but I can't remember if pre or post Jon 3 so putting in spoilers until someone confirms it's pre-Jon 3 THIS SPOILER IS POST JON-3.

So Bran finally wargs into Hodor to fight. Cool. I'm glad we got the 3-eyed crow / Children of the Forest meet and greet out of the way early. So now we have largely unexplored territory ahead of us for Bran. I just hope the rest of his chapters aren't simply training and multiple failed attempts to fly. I'm assuming Bran is going to warg into one of the dragons when they finally reach Westeros. No point in flying as anything other than the greatest of flying beasts. I do think a dragon needs to die in this book but which one? The child killer? It should be. Just because prophecy says the dragon has 3 heads doesn't mean 3 dragons must make it to Westeros. Hell maybe only 1 dragon makes it. Gotta have some jeopardy with the dragons I say.

Coldhands is now surplus to requirements. I wonder if he will be revealed as Benjen and then set on fire. His face has got to be hidden from Bran's view for some reason, and being ugly and disfigured can be it. It's got to be someone Bran knows.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Anti-climactic is a pretty good way to put it.

I read the first sentence of your spoiler, and it's not something I've come across in the book yet, so I can definitely tell you that that comes after the 3rd Jon chapter. I think there's only been one Bran chapter up to this point.

[Kirazi]

I wonder what Melisandre's intentions are, surely she must know that Lightbringer isn't what it should be...

[The Usurper]

Am I the only one who was surprised to see Mance go out the way he did? I was expecting him to be defiant right to the end--or to resign himself to his fate, at the very least. Mance pleading for mercy and "denying all that he had ever been", as Jon put it, was pretty surprising to me.

I too was surprised, but more so annoyed and disappointed. Mance was one of my favourite characters, and I expected him to die with more courage, dignified in the knowlegde that he had done the best he could for his true people, even if he had failed in the end.

[Topher]

Fire and torture makes everyone wimpy. I think that's the point there. It's very realistic, no stoic, burning, honorable men here. Burning to death hurts really bad.

[limbstan]

Can someone explain what happened with the giants in this chapter?

[mnemosyne]

Can someone explain what happened with the giants in this chapter?

I think the giants wanted to bend the knee and come through the wall, but one of them had a mammoth with him that couldn't make it through the gate. Maybe the mammoth was too big for the gate? I wasn't clear on that. Maybe Stannis/the Watch was unwilling to bring mammoths south? I think he was too big, though.

The rest of the giants (just four, man. poor giants.) were unwilling to leave the one, who was unwilling to leave his mammoth. So they lingered north of the wall the longest that evening, then left together.

I'm as sad about the giants' future fate as I am Mance's.

[Aganerral]

I wonder what Melisandre's intentions are, surely she must know that Lightbringer isn't what it should be...

As of where I am in the book (only a couple chapters,after this, about to start davos 2, I still really don't know what to make of Mel either. She's identifed the threat and enemy of the others (good!) but her Lightbringer seems like a fraud, she's done some very not nice things, and I don't really like R'hillor either.

[ThinPaperWings]

Last of the Mohicans, anyone?

[chris.t.]

As of where I am in the book (only a couple chapters,after this, about to start davos 2, I still really don't know what to make of Mel either. She's identifed the threat and enemy of the others (good!) but her Lightbringer seems like a fraud, she's done some very not nice things, and I don't really like R'hillor either.

I'm not sure we can take Mel as a typical representative of R'hllor's faith. She seems to have a different read on R'hllor than Thoros does. Much like the new High Septon and the Septon on the Quiet Island seem to have a bit different takes on the Seven.

[Nebiros]

Anyone else got a shock moment when Jon let the arrows fly to kill Mance in his cage? At that moment I thought Jon was trying (and succeeding) in sabotaging Melisandre's "spell" - because Mance died of the arrows, not of the fire. My eyes grew wide and I thought "wow... now Mel and Stannis are going to be REALLY pissed", but Mel continued just as if nothing happened, so probably it didn't matter or it was even planned this way. Strange feeling when reading it, though.

[Swordswench]

Anyone else got a shock moment when Jon let the arrows fly to kill Mance in his cage? At that moment I thought Jon was trying (and succeeding) in sabotaging Melisandre's "spell" - because Mance died of the arrows, not of the fire. My eyes grew wide and I thought "wow... now Mel and Stannis are going to be REALLY pissed", but Mel continued just as if nothing happened, so probably it didn't matter or it was even planned this way. Strange feeling when reading it, though.

I took Mel's lack of reaction to mean that she knew Mance wasn't truly of king's blood, or had arrived at that conclusion recently. I was surprised that she had no reaction, though.

[Joke]

Even if Mance is "king's blood", it's unclear to me whether it was important to Melisandre's spells that the flames be the cause of his death. She got Robb, Balon, and Joffrey's deaths just by throwing leeches with Edric's blood into the fire.

I think it's safe to assume that _all_ of a king's blood in the fire would be more powerful than just a shot glass worth of king's-bastard-son blood, thus she wanted to burn Mance. But I don't know if death by fire (rather than arrow) would have increased the power or not.

So it may be that she's just a complete asshole, happy to burn someone alive even though a merciful death then corpse-burning would achieve the same end. Was that point clarified in any of the earlier books?

[Lord Crispy of Bacon]

i found myself wondering it if were a fake Mance too, but there's no way....

[devilish hedgehog]

I too harbor suspicions that it is a fake Mance. There is nothing here very "mance" like. I would have imagined Mance heading toward his End with a song on his lips.

They brought forth the King-Beyond-the-Wall ((doesnt say Mance))

"...this is not right, I'm not the king, they-"

Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope... ((to shut him up?))

Mance was bloody ((his face?)) when the queen's men half-shoved, half-carried him to the cage.

I agree that there are many eyes, many who know the look of Mance Rayder.

How well do the Watch know Mance's face?

How far away are is the crowd?

Tricky Jon has already subverted the Stan n Mel's plans with his baby switching, i would not put it past him to subvert their regicide. Also GRRM has been known to hide things in a PoV, direct thoughts, etc. Although several times Jon DOES call the executed man Mance, it could be a mental trick to hide his thoughts from the sorceress and her king?

a long shot i know, but i hope hope hope Mance is still around

[Kirazi]

I too harbor suspicions that it is a fake Mance. There is nothing here very "mance" like. I would have imagined Mance heading toward his End with a song on his lips.

They brought forth the King-Beyond-the-Wall ((doesnt say Mance))

"...this is not right, I'm not the king, they-"

Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope... ((to shut him up?))

Mance was bloody ((his face?)) when the queen's men half-shoved, half-carried him to the cage.

I agree that there are many eyes, many who know the look of Mance Rayder.

How well do the Watch know Mance's face?

How far away are is the crowd?

Tricky Jon has already subverted the Stan n Mel's plans with his baby switching, i would not put it past him to subvert their regicide. Also GRRM has been known to hide things in a PoV, direct thoughts, etc. Although several times Jon DOES call the executed man Mance, it could be a mental trick to hide his thoughts from the sorceress and her king?

a long shot i know, but i hope hope hope Mance is still around

Great observation! I hope you are right!

[Emo Targaryen]

Am I the only one who was surprised to see Mance go out the way he did? I was expecting him to be defiant right to the end--or to resign himself to his fate, at the very least. Mance pleading for mercy and "denying all that he had ever been", as Jon put it, was pretty surprising to me.

I expected him to

. But alas, he didn't.

Melisandre's "One realm, one god, one king" somehow reminded me of the Nazi slogan "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer". While directly invoking Hitler might be a bit harsh, it is a reminder that Stannis is the most "totalitarian" one of the pretending kings, not only wanting people to obey his rule, but also to share his values and beliefs (which, of course, include his right to the throne, by virtue of being younger brother of a king without trueborn children, as well as being Azor Ahai Reborn)

I wonder whether Stan and Mel have already found out about the baby switching. Did they intend to kill the baby together with Mance?

[Rorschach]

I too harbor suspicions that it is a fake Mance. There is nothing here very "mance" like. I would have imagined Mance heading toward his End with a song on his lips.

They brought forth the King-Beyond-the-Wall ((doesnt say Mance))

"...this is not right, I'm not the king, they-"

Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope... ((to shut him up?))

Mance was bloody ((his face?)) when the queen's men half-shoved, half-carried him to the cage.

I agree that there are many eyes, many who know the look of Mance Rayder.

How well do the Watch know Mance's face?

How far away are is the crowd?

Tricky Jon has already subverted the Stan n Mel's plans with his baby switching, i would not put it past him to subvert their regicide. Also GRRM has been known to hide things in a PoV, direct thoughts, etc. Although several times Jon DOES call the executed man Mance, it could be a mental trick to hide his thoughts from the sorceress and her king?

a long shot i know, but i hope hope hope Mance is still around

Great observation!

Besides, what's the purpose of burning Mance alive? I thought Mel planned to wake a dragon with his King's blood. But nothing happened there. Only the light sword shine brighter.