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[ADWD SPOILERS] Tyrion 7


Xray the Enforcer

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"I'll gladly hire you as well, ser. My father's seat is mine by rights. Swear me your sword, and once I win it back I'll drown you in gold."

"I saw a man drowned in gold once. It was not a pretty sight."

That Jorah, always getting the best lines.

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Another excellent Tyrion chapter, I maintain that his arc is the strongest in the book so far. He is haunted by his father's murder so much so that I believe that he is now at a stage of denial. This chapter seems to have been based around how the actions of our central characters have effected the common people - Dany destroying the slave trade and the price on Tyrion's head. It will be interesting to see how the relationship between Penny and Tyrion develops.

Something that struck me as odd though was the Old Whore's final statement to Tyrion, she knows about the death that has come to Astapor and Meereen - why does she wish the same thing on Volantis, is it merely because she is bitter about how she has been treated as a freewoman, or is there some deeper thought?

Some observations from Tyrion VII:

* I like the comparisons drawn between the Faith and the Lord of Light. Both are ruled by men who have no qualms going against those leading their respective cities politically; Cersei and the Triarchs respectively. Also, both have Holy Orders, which might explain why they feel they should be outspoken.

* The R'Hollr religion engages in slavery of some sort, I wonder if this is only from the Volantene branch or is a universal aspect of the faith. I wonder how Dany would react to this?

* Tyrion's concern for Aegon is interesting too, I wonder if he is going to head back to Westeros and become a key player in that storyline.

* I wonder why the ship is taking a corpse pickled in brine to New Ghis...?

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Something that struck me as odd though was the Old Whore's final statement to Tyrion, she knows about the death that has come to Astapor and Meereen - why does she wish the same thing on Volantis, is it merely because she is bitter about how she has been treated as a freewoman, or is there some deeper thought?

From what I could gather, she (being of the R'hollor cult in the city) actually believes that Dany is the promised one, and sacrificing the city is probably acceptable for her if it helps Dany in her destiny.

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From what I could gather, she (being of the R'hollor cult in the city) actually believes that Dany is the promised one, and sacrificing the city is probably acceptable for her if it helps Dany in her destiny.

Agreed. I see that being her reasoning.

Really enjoyed this chapter!! As always, Tyrion's chapters have the best lines.

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Something that struck me as odd though was the Old Whore's final statement to Tyrion, she knows about the death that has come to Astapor and Meereen - why does she wish the same thing on Volantis, is it merely because she is bitter about how she has been treated as a freewoman, or is there some deeper thought?

I took her to mean just that she sees Dany as the avenger and liberator of slaves. Obviously she considers herself very much a slave still and she wants Dany to bring freedom.

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When Tyrion hears that Griff et al are on their way to Westeros he reacts by saying that they "took the bait" and implies that he thinks going to Dany would have been a wiser course of action. Whats the deal with this? If he thinks its such a bad move, why did he suggest it in the first place? Simply to return to Westeros more quickly?

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Didn't make any sense of Tyrion's "took the bait" line, got a horrible feeling about it...

My understanding of "Tell her to come soon" was that since she thinks the city (at least those of the Red faith) will revolt when the triarchs declare war, Dany sweeping through would swing the fight their way, possibly making it a quick and decisive battle.

Anyone else's heart flutter for all of 5 seconds thinking Arya had somehow found Tyrion, despite all the evidence that it clearly couldn't have been her (over-lapping time etc)?

Also, first post, hello!

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From what I could gather, she (being of the R'hollor cult in the city) actually believes that Dany is the promised one, and sacrificing the city is probably acceptable for her if it helps Dany in her destiny.

I took her to mean just that she sees Dany as the avenger and liberator of slaves. Obviously she considers herself very much a slave still and she wants Dany to bring freedom.

I think it's both. When she tells Tyrion her message she touches her slave tattoo, but it's also apparent from the dialogue regarding the ship's destination that she's very close to Benerro (i.e to know what his interpretations of the flames are).

These R'hllor folk are starting to get a bit too eerie for me. I am keen to wonder how Mel is going to react when she hears that other red priests are calling not just for a different religious messiah to Stannis, but for someone who happens to be a political rival to the throne too. I wonder if Benerro are at all concerned or aware of the threat of the Others, and if so, if the red priest on the boat with Tyrion and Jorah will be speaking to Dany about it.

I must admit, I am a bit... puzzled by Jorah's decision. I don't think Dany has even heard of Tyrion before, I'm not sure he should really expect delivering him to her to be enough to take him back into her service again. I would really have expected him by the time he got to Volantis to have resigned himself to his fate and wanted to return to Bear Island for the rest of his days. :dunno:

When Tyrion hears that Griff et al are on their way to Westeros he reacts by saying that they "took the bait" and implies that he thinks going to Dany would have been a wiser course of action. Whats the deal with this? If he thinks its such a bad move, why did he suggest it in the first place? Simply to return to Westeros more quickly?

He might have meant "took the bait" in a bit more literal sense to mean "ate what I gave him". However, in the same scene he beats Aegon at cyvasse with his dragon, after lying to him, and then tells Aegon to "keep his dragon close". So who knows. But I'm still not sure why he would have intentionally given him bad advice, and hell, all the advice he gave him was quite sound.

Edit

Fuck it, I'm going to make a bigger point here. You know what ADWD has what AFFC fatally lacked? A real sense of anticipation. We know that loads of different plot threads are coming together and it's going to be explosive, in the same way we were anticipating all hell breaking loose in AGOT, the Battle of the Blackwater in ACOK, Joffrey's/Robb's weddings in ASOS. It actually has a carefully thought out structure to it. AFFC didn't, and Christ did it suffer for it. OK, it's "only" 350 pages in, but it already feels like Martin is back on the top of his game. :D

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I'm really starting to like this book... and I mean... REALLY starting to like it. It could possibly be my favorite in the series now. I love the sense of anticipation as the poster above me said. I love how Martin is willing to go slow where he wants to establish characters and world building (Tyrion's journey), but is not afraid to go fast and rapidly advance the plot as well (we get the Dornishmen in Volantis in one chapter, and next to Yunkai after the conquest of Astapor in the other). But I also love the epic sprawl of it. This book more than any other has an epicness to it that cannot be compared with any other work I can remember - a vast new world seems to be opened to us in the East, so vivid, so rich, and yet made to fit together with what we've seen of Martin's world till now. And still, Martin manages to strike a great balance between the world building and the plot advancing.

Now as for this chapter - I definitely think that Tyrion felt that going West was a mistake... and I don't think he was trying to trick Aegon, as he was thinking all the time how Griff should be smart enough to see they should be going East, and wondering if them taking the Volantese ships was just a rouse so they could take them over at sea. I think he was probably trying to teach Aegon a lesson in strategy, but got caught before he could finish it. Its like in their game - Tyrion lies, and tells Aegon in the end to always keep his dragon close.

Its also interesting how despite all his cynicism and outward hatred of the world, Tyrion still can't help himself in having a moral core... he worries over Aegon and his companions - he helped save him in the river at the risk of his own life - in the previous chapter he feels guilty after bedding the whore - he tells her master that the vomit is not her fault and is willing to pay for the ruined carpet. I was worries that Tyrion would turn into a villain, but I think that at his core he could not find it in himself to be cruel, despite how he tries to show how little he cares outwardly.

Finally as for the final words from the old whore... I don't think they have anything to do with Rhlor - much like Tyrion says, have some of you not listened to a word she says? She did not talk of prophecy, or piety. She did not say that 'the faithful' are waiting for Dany. Her concerns are instead for the class structure of the city, for the contempt and lack of respect they receive. And I have to wonder at those of you who believe that her being a clever woman, knowing what happened in Astapor she should be trying not to get the same to Volantis. Do you think then that Dany should not have freed the slaves? That she should have gone along with the counsel that slavery is just a fact of life, an institution that will always be there, and that the consequences of her actions are just too high? I think the old whore knows all too well that Dany has enemies, and that the war that will take place because of her actions will have victims - but that its a war that she feels Dany should win, and is willing to accept the consequences, simply due to her hatred of the institution of slavery.

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Tyrion directly states his motivations for giving Aegon the bad advice in the chapter:

"I was hoping to use the Golden Company to take Casterly Rock."

And for once he wasn't being facetious. I think you guys are reading too much into it. That's the bait, right there. It's not all that different than what he wanted to do with Myrcella, he just wants to bring ruin and annoyance to the remaining members of his family and doesn't care what happens to him in the process.

Jorah's actions are much more inscrutible to me in this chapter. I'm having a lot of trouble trying to puzzle out what he hopes to accomplish by taking Tyrion to Dany (he doesn't know about Tryion's dragon expertise or anything). My only guess is that he thinks Tyrion can give her a good inside look at the Lannisters and King's Landing for Danys' strategy but surely that can't be his whole motivation...

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Don't get me wrong I love me some Jorah + Tyrion verbal sparring but this chapter was a bit too much Travelogue, and too long. They could have been on the boat to Meereen at the start, instead of just getting on one at the end.

Kind of a snoozer!

Also, and I think I'll keep saying this every chapter: you poor, poor idiot Jorah.

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I'm really starting to like this book... and I mean... REALLY starting to like it. It could possibly be my favorite in the series now. I love the sense of anticipation as the poster above me said. I love how Martin is willing to go slow where he wants to establish characters and world building (Tyrion's journey), but is not afraid to go fast and rapidly advance the plot as well (we get the Dornishmen in Volantis in one chapter, and next to Yunkai after the conquest of Astapor in the other). But I also love the epic sprawl of it. This book more than any other has an epicness to it that cannot be compared with any other work I can remember - a vast new world seems to be opened to us in the East, so vivid, so rich, and yet made to fit together with what we've seen of Martin's world till now. And still, Martin manages to strike a great balance between the world building and the plot advancing.

Now as for this chapter - I definitely think that Tyrion felt that going West was a mistake... and I don't think he was trying to trick Aegon, as he was thinking all the time how Griff should be smart enough to see they should be going East, and wondering if them taking the Volantese ships was just a rouse so they could take them over at sea. I think he was probably trying to teach Aegon a lesson in strategy, but got caught before he could finish it. Its like in their game - Tyrion lies, and tells Aegon in the end to always keep his dragon close.

Its also interesting how despite all his cynicism and outward hatred of the world, Tyrion still can't help himself in having a moral core... he worries over Aegon and his companions - he helped save him in the river at the risk of his own life - in the previous chapter he feels guilty after bedding the whore - he tells her master that the vomit is not her fault and is willing to pay for the ruined carpet. I was worries that Tyrion would turn into a villain, but I think that at his core he could not find it in himself to be cruel, despite how he tries to show how little he cares outwardly.

Finally as for the final words from the old whore... I don't think they have anything to do with Rhlor - much like Tyrion says, have some of you not listened to a word she says? She did not talk of prophecy, or piety. She did not say that 'the faithful' are waiting for Dany. Her concerns are instead for the class structure of the city, for the contempt and lack of respect they receive. And I have to wonder at those of you who believe that her being a clever woman, knowing what happened in Astapor she should be trying not to get the same to Volantis. Do you think then that Dany should not have freed the slaves? That she should have gone along with the counsel that slavery is just a fact of life, an institution that will always be there, and that the consequences of her actions are just too high? I think the old whore knows all too well that Dany has enemies, and that the war that will take place because of her actions will have victims - but that its a war that she feels Dany should win, and is willing to accept the consequences, simply due to her hatred of the institution of slavery.

^^^this. Exactly my thoughts, couldn't have said it better myself. The Old Whore is a shrewd women. She knows what she's doing.

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I took her to mean just that she sees Dany as the avenger and liberator of slaves. Obviously she considers herself very much a slave still and she wants Dany to bring freedom.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

It seems to me that Dany's actions have created a course of events (roughly) similar to the French Revolution in the real world. By freeing the slaves, she has created two opposing ideologies: slave-owners opposing her and oppressed slaves adoring her. Now slaves in all of Essos begin to see that a world without slavery could be possible if she succeeded, and slavers see that their whole world will crumble if she stays triumphant for too long. So slave-owners must crush Daenerys urgently before those dreams of freedom are rooted.

If Tyrion's figures are correct, Volantis has a 90% of slaves in their population. Xaro's arguments suggest Qarth isn't far from that. That points that Essos has grown too dependent on slaves and a widespread rebellion could turn the whole continent upside down, or tear it into pieces. If Daenerys wins her war it will spark a chain reaction (or a "Domino effect") with rebellions in the whole continent. That's why most cities are urging to depose her, or else their whole societies will crumble once slaves decide it's enough. The WIdow's final line suggests that slaves in all Essos are already reaching that conclusion and all they need is a spark.

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