{ADWD Spoilers} Sansa Stark

[corbaekin]

Just thought of something.

Now that Dany is married and can't marry Aegon...wouldn't it be a great way for him to cement his rule, to marry the last eligible Stark maiden, who was considered worthy of being a queen? To gain the loyalty of the North as well as Dorne. If they swore to the dragons, and the dragons aren't dead, and the dragons acknowledge the worth of the North....Varys is clever enough to see it. And it would no doubt bring about a Varys/Littlefinger showdown, which would be absolutely epic. Spy vs Spy...

[Ferrous]

Just thought of something.

Now that Dany is married and can't marry Aegon...wouldn't it be a great way for him to cement his rule, to marry the last eligible Stark maiden, who was considered worthy of being a queen? To gain the loyalty of the North as well as Dorne. If they swore to the dragons, and the dragons aren't dead, and the dragons acknowledge the worth of the North....Varys is clever enough to see it. And it would no doubt bring about a Varys/Littlefinger showdown, which would be absolutely epic. Spy vs Spy...

Barristan dealt with that marriage.

If Aegon can't marry Daenerys, Arianne is the obvious candidate- and even keeps the Targaryen incest tradition alive.

[Wouter]

Just thought of something.

Now that Dany is married and can't marry Aegon...wouldn't it be a great way for him to cement his rule, to marry the last eligible Stark maiden, who was considered worthy of being a queen? To gain the loyalty of the North as well as Dorne. If they swore to the dragons, and the dragons aren't dead, and the dragons acknowledge the worth of the North....Varys is clever enough to see it. And it would no doubt bring about a Varys/Littlefinger showdown, which would be absolutely epic. Spy vs Spy...

Dany won't stay married for long I'm sure, and marrying Dany will always be the main plan (for the dragon blood, and to unify the dynasty, especially important should Aegon turn out to be a Blackfyre pretender in the end). And if not Dany, a marriage with Arianne Martell makes more sense; they need Dorne's swords.

And even after those 2, Margaery might be preferable to Sansa as part of a settlement with the Tyrells. Chalk another one on her belt then, poor Margaery the black widow!

Only after that would they start thinking about Sansa, I guess. For marriage to Aegon, at least. Varys no doubt would like to have her in his hands, if only because as far as he knows she should be the next (ruling) lady of winterfell and thus an important piece in pacifying the north after Aegon has won.

[Alexia]

I seriously doubt that anyone would want to take Margaery if Tommen lost his crown/life -- she's the literal kiss of death to her husbands.

I would have no complaints about a Sansa/Aegon marriage. It would, interestingly, recall the Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship and possibly make Sansa the queen of Cersei's prophecy. And a marriage with Sansa could be important to fully pacify the North. Lord Eddard's daughters are important to the Northmen, this is clear.

The Dornish already support the Targaryens so alliance seems less important, there.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I seriously doubt that anyone would want to take Margaery if Tommen lost his crown/life -- she's the literal kiss of death to her husbands.

I would have no complaints about a Sansa/Aegon marriage. It would, interestingly, recall the Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship and possibly make Sansa the queen of Cersei's prophecy. And a marriage with Sansa could be important to fully pacify the North. Lord Eddard's daughters are important to the Northmen, this is clear.

The Dornish already support the Targaryens so alliance seems less important, there.

not to mention the claim of the riverlands and the vale.

also would a marriage of margerey/Aegon piss of Dorne

[Wouter]

I seriously doubt that anyone would want to take Margaery if Tommen lost his crown/life -- she's the literal kiss of death to her husbands.

I would have no complaints about a Sansa/Aegon marriage. It would, interestingly, recall the Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship and possibly make Sansa the queen of Cersei's prophecy. And a marriage with Sansa could be important to fully pacify the North. Lord Eddard's daughters are important to the Northmen, this is clear.

The Dornish already support the Targaryens so alliance seems less important, there.

But do the Dornish support Dany or Aegon (which is not necessarily the same - after all Dany is "the slayer of lies" and there is that "mummer's dragon")? I haven't read the Dornish chapter yet, did they already know about Aegon at that point? Does Doran believe it really is Aegon, or does he doubt? Is Doran willing to risk entering a war without the support of actual dragons (the flying lizards type)? A marriage with Arianna might be an incentive.

I agree that a marriage with Sansa would be important to keep the north in the Kingdoms, but I doubt Aegon is going to succeed and he may just be locked in a stalemate with the Tyrells and the Ironborn and the Lannisters (everybody is fighting everybody else it seems, south of the neck) till Dany arrives. If he takes KL and much of the south, then he can start thinking about pacifying the north, but I don't think it will ever come to that. If anyone does (but the northmen themselves, lead by Jon), it will be Dany I think and then a marriage between Jon and Dany takes care of that if necessary.

Since Aegon VI seems to have been setup to fail in the story I wouldn't like Sansa to be married to him; she might go down with him.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think it would be very foolish of Littlefinger to marry Sansa himself rather than marry her off to Harry-the-Heir or SweetRobin. If Sansa marries one of the two heirs to the Vale and gives birth to a son, then Petyr can (not knowing about the continued existence of Bran and Rickon) can keep his little fingers on both the Vale and Winterfell, particularly if Sansa's Vale-heir husband meets with an unfortunate accident. If Littlefinger marries Sansa now, then he is out of the Vale as soon as SweetRobin either makes it to age 16 (unlikely) or dies.

Of course I haven't yet received my copy of ADwD; so if it's been mentioned that SweetRobin has died or Sansa's marriage with Harry-the-Heir didn't go through, I haven't heard about it.

Can't wait to get the book; and I don't mind being spoiled as to some things now (or I wouldn't have come to this thread).

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Sansa/Aegon would be the closest thing to Henry VII/Elizabeth of York in this story.

What happens to Dany and Jon then? Do they die to save the world from the Others?

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm not so far along yet -- what does Tyrion think of Sansa? When I was flipping forward, I encountered a paragraph in which he thinks that she was "false" but I'm curious about this.

Not curious enough to read Tyrion out of order, it intersects with too much else for me to do that, but still...

Another thing I found interesting is how Cersei finally appears to realize how badly she treated Sansa. I never felt that Cersei "got" that, and to hear her refer to Sansa as "little Sansa" and see her accusing face in the crowd, and to feel bad over Sansa's wolf, was somehow jarring. Given that just a book ago she was promising to have Sansa tortured to death for murdering her son...

Cersei did seem, oddly enough, to have it in her to offer a little attention to Sansa during the latter's captivity. She goes out of her way to try to educate Sansa about reality (though it's ironic, telling a girl that you and your regime hold captive and periodically abuse, that she has to grow up and get wise), speaks kindly to Sansa after the girl has a major meltdown on getting her first period (for which I don't blame Sansa; it wasn't so much freaking out at flowering, it was freaking out at the protection of being an official child being gone and now being eligible for Joffrey's bed). I'm not sure that Cersei thought Sansa was as stupid as Joffrey implied; I think Cersei was a little worried about Sansa's potential influence on Joffrey, it was obvious Joffrey was attracted to Sansa, even if he showed it by bullying her and threatening to rape her; and it was in Cersei's best interest to try to keep Sansa cowed and in her place, which was definitely lower than Cersei's. Cersei might have been perceptive enough to notice the serious level of self-control that Sansa exhibited as a captive; and wanted to break that control. It would have served Cersei well to have Sansa toadying to her and becoming her creature, but Sansa never obliged after Ned's execution. I also think that maybe on some unconscious level Cersei had identified with Sansa, being forced into marriage against her will, first the marriage that didn't happen to Joffrey, and then the marriage to Tyrion. Of course, once Cersei believed that Tyrion had murdered Joffrey, it was easy for her to also blame Sansa, especially since Sansa had fled. (I'm still annoyed at the Queen of Thorns, who I otherwise like very much, for setting up Sansa as a totally unwitting accomplice) I'm not sure how Cersei went from wanting Sansa's painful death to feeling sorry for her; does she realize that Sansa didn't connive at Joffrey's death.

Of course, I haven't yet read ADWD; and it does sound odd for Cersei to regret the death of Lady.

[Alexia]

Since Aegon VI seems to have been setup to fail in the story I wouldn't like Sansa to be married to him; she might go down with him.

I haven't read far enough to comment on how its being set up, but I really hope that the pages aren't being wasted on him. Also, I doubt anyone would marry him before his victory is assured/complete and I wouldn't want Sansa to marry him without that. But the more I think about it, the more Sansa is the ideal marital candidate. She would bring the Riverlands and the North with her, and she has close kin in the Vale who could be influenced through that as well.

Also, Margaery's reputation has gone to hell in a handbasket. Sansa's, OTOH, has not -- except the minor problem of killing Joffrey, but that might attract Aegon to her all the more.

Sansa/Aegon would be the closest thing to Henry VII/Elizabeth of York in this story.

What happens to Dany and Jon then? Do they die to save the world from the Others?

This could be great, ideal, epic even.

[Ran]

Raksha,

It's very interesting you note that! Linda's been re-reading A Clash of Kings and she noted just a day or two ago that Cersei seems to be almost treating Sansa as a substitute daughter after Myrcella is sent away to Dorne. All of that major attention to her follows Myrcella's departure.

[zuziako]

I think LF knows it is in his best political interest to marry Sansa to Harry, or somebody equally influential, but then again... Petyr Baelish already made a mistake concerning Sansa - by kissing her, he lost Lysa Arryn protection and had to kill his "lady wife" to survive. It was a folly you would not normally expect of him. The question is, will he forget himself again?

I doubt that Aegon/Sansa will happen. Sansa is in the Vale, and thus far nobody knows she actually is there, including Varys, and even if LF figures Aegon is a match for Sansa, I doubt he would have a way to arrange it. And she can't really do anything, she's dependent on Petyr, and winter is coming, so traveling would be twice as hard.

But it does ring of epic, I give you that :thumbsup:

[Alexia]

Interesting notation that the major attention to Sansa came after Myrcella left; I never noticed that but I do believe it to be true. However, I do think it bears pointing out that Sansa was not being provided things that she needed. One thing that stands out in particular is that her clothes were too small with her developing breasts, which was gaining her a lot of inappropriate male attention and not helping the situation with Joffrey either.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Cersei felt sorry for Sansa, more like she felt guilty for what she did and allowed done to her. Interesting points though -- and I'll add that while Sansa showed iron self-control and dignity as a tortured, humiliated captive, Cersei...did not, by any means, do the same.

[Ygritte]

Interesting notation that the major attention to Sansa came after Myrcella left; I never noticed that but I do believe it to be true. However, I do think it bears pointing out that Sansa was not being provided things that she needed. One thing that stands out in particular is that her clothes were too small with her developing breasts, which was gaining her a lot of inappropriate male attention and not helping the situation with Joffrey either.

To me that just adds more fuel to the theory; Cersei wants her little girl back, and Myrcella is younger than Sansa. Cersei isn't seeing Sansa's development because she doesn't want to.

[Wouter]

Sansa/Aegon would be the closest thing to Henry VII/Elizabeth of York in this story.

What happens to Dany and Jon then? Do they die to save the world from the Others?

Sansa/Tyrion could also be close to Henry VII/Elizabeth of York, if (and only if) Tyrion eventually becomes king after suddenly being outed as a secret Targaryen (which would give him a shaky foundation for the throne as far as lineage goes, not too unlike Henry VII I guess).

Unlikely I guess, but still more likely IMO then Aegon surviving and prospering. Aegon likely is the "mummers dragon" and with Dany being the "slayer of lies" (not too mention, one of the 3 main characters - and it would be unwise to think that GRRM is so unconventional that this doesn't count in ASOIAF), I fear it is him who dies. I also very much doubt he is who Varys says he is (and he himself thinks he is).

More and more I'm starting to wonder where GRRM is going with Sansa's (existing) forced marriage and if she will ever be able to get rid of it. I doubt Tyrion is going to die anytime soon and I don't see Sansa getting it annulled by herself. I have the feeling it would be like him to keep her stuck in it. If Sansa manages to get home in TWOW she will probably find some way to get rid of it, but if she stays mired in southern politics I suspect Tyrion will be back in her life sooner or later.

Cersei did seem, oddly enough, to have it in her to offer a little attention to Sansa during the latter's captivity. She goes out of her way to try to educate Sansa about reality (though it's ironic, telling a girl that you and your regime hold captive and periodically abuse, that she has to grow up and get wise), speaks kindly to Sansa after the girl has a major meltdown on getting her first period (for which I don't blame Sansa; it wasn't so much freaking out at flowering, it was freaking out at the protection of being an official child being gone and now being eligible for Joffrey's bed).

Cersei was maybe relatively friendly to Sansa after her first period, but other than that she may have offered Sansa some attention but not really of the friendly sort.

She never stopped Joffrey's beatings, and defended this even when Tyrion explicitly brought it to her attention. Even in ASOS, she defended Joffrey when he was telling them how he was going to make Sansa kiss the head of her dead brother, and she didn't object to his boasts that he would rape Sansa. Cersei did not protest when Tywin told them Sansa would be forcibly married to Tyrion, did not warn Sansa beforehand and coldly threatened her that she would be literally dragged to the ceremony unless she complied. In late ACOK, she may have educated Sansa some on being naive but she did so in a decidely unfriendly way (like the Hound might have, when at his angriest that is). This included the rather cruel touch of making sure Sansa would be killed if Stannis took the Red Keep - contrary to what she told Sansa, Stannis had ordered his men to look for Eddards daughters and spare them, and if anyone had a close grip on his men it's him.

Those are not the things you do if you see the girl as a surrogate daughter, or if you are trying to win some affection or at least gratitude from her. Instead, Margaery Tyrell managed to do that, by really showing (positive) attention to Sansa. Taking her out to ride (which Cersei did exactly once, and probably only because Joffrey likely wanted his betrothed with him, and which ended with the riot), letting her into her circle of friends, and one of her ladies even teached Sansa to play the harp. Cersei, as far as I can tell, didn't even provide a maester or septa to teach Sansa as she would have been at Winterfel. Alexia pointed out the lack of proper clothing as well. All in all, her treatment of Sansa was icecold; she was there to be used as a doormat wife, a punching ball when the Lannisters lost a battle and as a hostage to keep Jaime alive. None of the Lannisters cared one bit for her, except Tyrion (and even he didn't treat her all that good really, but at least he occasionally cared about her feelings).

II doubt that Aegon/Sansa will happen. Sansa is in the Vale, and thus far nobody knows she actually is there, including Varys, and even if LF figures Aegon is a match for Sansa, I doubt he would have a way to arrange it. And she can't really do anything, she's dependent on Petyr, and winter is coming, so traveling would be twice as hard.

Since I do expect Varys to have some spies in the Vale (he is a good spymaster, is he not?), I'm far from sure he doesn't at least suspect Sansa is in the Vale. Surely, this instant-bastard-daughter of LF didn't escape his attention? Everything about LF should interest him.

If LF would contact Varys himself to arrange a marriage, that would mean he is throwing his lot in with "Aegon" so why would Varys not be willing to listen to that? OK, except that it is probably Dany or Arianne who is supposed to become his bride.

[Alexia]

Does Varys know that LF asked Cersei if he could marry Sansa? That really is such a presumptuous request (not only is she young enough to be his daughter, there is an enormous difference in social class and she was betrothed to the KING!!) that Varys may well be able to figure out where she is pretty quickly based on that, given LF's relationship to Catelyn and Lysa.

It is also fairly logical that Sansa would have gone to the Vale and it would be much easier to scope out in search of her than the North at the moment.

[zuziako]

Does Varys know that LF asked Cersei if he could marry Sansa? That really is such a presumptuous request (not only is she young enough to be his daughter, there is an enormous difference in social class and she was betrothed to the KING!!) that Varys may well be able to figure out where she is pretty quickly based on that, given LF's relationship to Catelyn and Lysa.

It is also fairly logical that Sansa would have gone to the Vale and it would be much easier to scope out in search of her than the North at the moment.

He might know where she is or he might not, but I think right now he doesn't give a dime. Aegon has to properly land, rise an army, and seize the throne. And what can Sansa of house Stark give him? Winterfell, full of ashes and traitors? North, divided with Frays lurking from every corner? To be a match for him she would first have to have the northmen behind her. And I doubt she can be another Lyanna. Her looks speak Tully.

[corbaekin]

More and more I'm starting to wonder where GRRM is going with Sansa's (existing) forced marriage and if she will ever be able to get rid of it. I doubt Tyrion is going to die anytime soon and I don't see Sansa getting it annulled by herself. I have the feeling it would be like him to keep her stuck in it. If Sansa manages to get home in TWOW she will probably find some way to get rid of it, but if she stays mired in southern politics I suspect Tyrion will be back in her life sooner or later.

Here's one interesting note. If Jaime and Cersei die before Tyrion (not that I necessarily think this will happen, but it's plausible with both of them no longer protected as they once were), then once Tyrion dies, Sansa is widow-heir to Casterly Rock, and all its gold.

Then would it be worth marrying her to someone? If with her she could bring not only a chance at the North, but gold?

[the Scorpion Knight]

Here's one interesting note. If Jaime and Cersei die before Tyrion (not that I necessarily think this will happen, but it's plausible with both of them no longer protected as they once were), then once Tyrion dies, Sansa is widow-heir to Casterly Rock, and all its gold.

Then would it be worth marrying her to someone? If with her she could bring not only a chance at the North, but gold?

jaime is out due to being member of the kingsguard

[Faint]

I'm almost certain Jaime and Cersei will die before Tyrion, actually. I'm not even sure Tyrion will die at all, whereas with the other two I'm convinced their time is limited, especially Cersei.