[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

To find the killer let's just think about the motives. Why kill Little Walder?

1. He is a Frey.

2. He was a Stark ward/hostage. (the very meaning of hostage is that if something happens to one of the "host family", the same happens to the hostage). So maybe it was some kind of delayed justice.

3. He was in Winterfell when it was seized and put to torch. So he knows too much. He was killed because he started talking too much or somebody first got the information from him and killed him.

4. If you remember his behavior during his time as a ward, how he hated Bran and the wolves, so that he actually joined the hunting party after Bran and Rickon. If I were surviving eyewitness of these events from the Winterfell side, I wouldn't miss the chance and kill the bastard <_<

5. If I were Big Walder the only reason why would I kill my cousin is that he stands before me in the heritage line. (With all the Freys in the pie he is now the 7th).

6. Giving that he was not only some Frey, but also Roose Bolton's wife's brother and Ramsay's squire, probably the killer wanted it to lead to some major quarrel involving all the partys, so that they would eat each other like spiders in a box.

For me Lord Manderly is the most suspicious candidate, but on the other hand he is not that stupid to seak confrontation being outnumbered by Freys and Boltons. Perhaps, the killer wanted them to think it was Manderly, making them to open the gates and go out to meet Stannis.

7. Given the centrality of Winterfell in the plot and the people gathered there or going there, Little Walder needed to be removed because he saw/knew of something else that was going on in Winterfell.

[Lummel]

I think of Theon as the kind of kid who might not really pay that much attention to these things, particularly to people he felt beneath him. So, I agree it's not Glover (for reasons already stated), but I'm not so sure Theon would recognize Harwin. Maybe he *should* recognize him, but maybe he didn't look so closely at the faces of random Winterfell men that were not deemed important for him to remember...

... but it feels written like we're supposed to wonder who that is. And if we're supposed to wonder, there should be an interesting answer...

I see where you are coming from with regard to Harwin, but Harwin is present in Bran I AGOT in the party with Theon that attends the execution and discovers the Direwolves, he's also the son of Hullen the Master of Horse. Harwin is not random Blacksmith's assistant No. 4 or random potboy he's going to be a well known person around Winterfell, not the kind of person that Theon wouldn't know. Besides which why would Harwin be killing these people in Winterfell?

I agree with your conclusion and concur that we are supposed to wonder and that there should be an answer.

[Jenny]

I've just had a crazy thought about the hooded man. Could he be a crannogman, or even Howland Reed himself?

I mean, he has sent his children to Winterfell and he would definitely want to know what happened to them?

[Xenophon]

The spearwives and Mance were only sent to rescue Arya, I think killing people would draw unwanted attention

Good point. But perhaps there is a way this could help their plans? Maybe they want as few people outside as possible when they make their escape, so they spread fear first.

We seen Theon's POV, so we know he's not the killer.

I don't think that's clear. Technically, we only see "Theon" in his last chapter. It could be that he killed these men before, but "Reek" is deliberately avoiding thinking about it (he is very good at hiding things from himself). As I read it, the only reason Roose believes Theon is innocent, is that he thinks him too mentally broken to turn against Ramsey. Yet we know that's ultimately not true, and perhaps his visits to the Godswood gave him strength earlier too.

However, Harwin is still the most elegant solution I can come up with. Here are the assumptions that lead me there:

...

2) The hooded man recognizes Theon, and is surprised that he is alive.

...

I see no evidence that he is surprised by the meeting. He says: “False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?” That sounds like a rhetorical question to me. As for how he'd know Theon by sight, everyone in the castle seems to know Theon by sight at this point, even the ordinary guards.

[Jojen]

That "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" thing to me sounds a lot like the legend of the ravens in the Tower of London, which says that if they're ever "lost," Britain will fall. Applying this to ASOIAF, perhaps without a Stark in Winterfell, the Wall--and by extension, Westeros--will fall.

Fun facts: During WWII, the ravens in the Tower of London were officially treated as soldiers. There was also a raven named Edgar Sopper who used to play dead to get attention.

[Kadence]

I like this theory of the hooded man being from the BwB, and possibly Harwin - it would make total sense. We know that Stoneheart was looking for her daughters. Her sending someone to this wedding would be expected, it would actually be weird if she didn't send an agent to Arya's wedding.

And that agent being Harwin or someone from Winterfell would explain why there was no rescue attempt - he'd recognize that this isn't Arya. This would also serve to get this information back to Stoneheart, who has no other way of knowing that this isn't the real Arya. And Stoneheart is definitely not the type that would simply leave her daughter be if she thought it was really her daughter. She is extremely focused and dedicated and would make Arya's rescue a priority.

There really aren't any other good candidates for the hooded man so I think there's a very good chance that the BwB agent theory is correct.

Besides which why would Harwin be killing these people in Winterfell?

We know the spearwives killed the people other than Little Walder, who was almost certainy Manderly's work. It's extremely doubtful the hooded man had anything to do with the deaths regardless of who he was.

[hotweaselsoup]

Has Wylla Manderly been put forth as a possible "stowaway"? She seems like she would be pretty okay with sticking Little Walder Frey with the pointy end.

Maybe crackpot, but a girl can dream, right?

[pow]

No, no, it was Hodor developing greenseer powers and causing Big Walder's death!

HOOOOOOOODDDDDDooR

[Lummel]

We know the spearwives killed the people other than Little Walder, who was almost certainy Manderly's work. It's extremely doubtful the hooded man had anything to do with the deaths regardless of who he was.

How do you know this?

The only thing that hints at such a possibility is the spearwife saying 'this was not our work' to Theon when Little Walder's body is brought into the hall, but that's not an admission of involvement in any of the other deaths.

Mance and his Merry Maids or a BwB rescuer hotfoot from Lady Stoneheart would not be responsible for the murders. Murdering people is only going to make the guards more attentive and watchful making it more difficult to escape with 'Arya'.

[Forseti]

I think the hooded man is a Stark loyalist who survived the slaughter of Winterfell. His hand immediately going to the hilt of his dagger hints at an acute and intense hatred for Theon.

[The Marquis de Leech]

There was another theory put forward about the hooded man: it was Theon talking to his reflection in the broken panes of the Winterfell greenhouse. Having re-read the chapter, it certainly sounds plausible.

[Lummel]

Yes, Theon is still my number one suspect.

[slayer420]

What about bran warging theo, he is weak minded from all the abuse, so he might be easy to take over. We also know that bran did something to him at the heart tree. Seems to me that theo got alot braver. Doesnt fit with what we had been seeing in theo's head from the pov's.

[Kadence]

How do you know this?

The only thing that hints at such a possibility is the spearwife saying 'this was not our work' to Theon when Little Walder's body is brought into the hall, but that's not an admission of involvement in any of the other deaths.

Mance and his Merry Maids or a BwB rescuer hotfoot from Lady Stoneheart would not be responsible for the murders. Murdering people is only going to make the guards more attentive and watchful making it more difficult to escape with 'Arya'.

page 617:

Theon: "Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you."

Holly laughed. "How could it be us? We're women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared."

That sure sounds like an extremely sarcastic confession to me. Much the same as Manderly's sarcastic taunting "I confess..." p. 676.

Also when Theon looks at the girls Rowan says "This was no work of ours". Then later on page 678 "You killed the others, why not him, Yellow Dick--" "--stank as bad as you. A pig of a man." "And Little Walder was a piglet. Killing him brought the Freys and Manderlys to dagger points, that was cunning, you--" "Not us."

She basically admits to killing Yellow Dick, while denying Little Walder. Not much mystery here to me. I don't think Martin really intended for this to be a mystery, as the girls essentially confess to killing Yellow Dick (nor do they deny "the others" accusation in this admission) while would lead one to assume they killed the other men as well. Who killed Little Walder is slightly more questionable, though it seems extremely likely it was Manderly. Not only do we have the Wylla motive, but Manderly taunting the Freys seems like a "I'm smugly taunting you to your face almost admitting I killed this child and you can't do shit because I have 400 men inside Winterfell" speech.

[darrylzero]

I see where you are coming from with regard to Harwin, but Harwin is present in Bran I AGOT in the party with Theon that attends the execution and discovers the Direwolves, he's also the son of Hullen the Master of Horse. Harwin is not random Blacksmith's assistant No. 4 or random potboy he's going to be a well known person around Winterfell, not the kind of person that Theon wouldn't know. Besides which why would Harwin be killing these people in Winterfell?

As already mentioned by others, it's entirely possible that he's killed no one (maaaaaybe Little Walder, but that could well have been a Manderly soldier or something). That does make it sound like he would know Harwin, though. I would imagine, I guess, that Harwin looks a lot more grizzled/hardened than he did, which might make him a little harder to recognize, but you make a good case.

I see no evidence that he is surprised by the meeting. He says: “False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?” That sounds like a rhetorical question to me. As for how he'd know Theon by sight, everyone in the castle seems to know Theon by sight at this point, even the ordinary guards.

Fair enough. You may be right. I still read surprise there, but I can't say for certain that was Martin's intent.

And that agent being Harwin or someone from Winterfell would explain why there was no rescue attempt - he'd recognize that this isn't Arya. This would also serve to get this information back to Stoneheart, who has no other way of knowing that this isn't the real Arya. And Stoneheart is definitely not the type that would simply leave her daughter be if she thought it was really her daughter. She is extremely focused and dedicated and would make Arya's rescue a priority.

If I'm right about the hooded man being surprised, then it's hard for me to figure how he would have seen Jeyne without seeing Theon. She's basically chained up in the bedroom, right, since the wedding, when Theon publicly gave her away. I hope Martin put as much thought into who the hooded man is as we have, because if we're reading way too much into this interaction, that would make me sad.

[Duskfire]

page 617:

Theon: "Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you."

Holly laughed. "How could it be us? We're women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared."

That sure sounds like an extremely sarcastic confession to me. Much the same as Manderly's sarcastic taunting "I confess..." p. 676.

Also when Theon looks at the girls Rowan says "This was no work of ours". Then later on page 678 "You killed the others, why not him, Yellow Dick--" "--stank as bad as you. A pig of a man." "And Little Walder was a piglet. Killing him brought the Freys and Manderlys to dagger points, that was cunning, you--" "Not us."

She basically admits to killing Yellow Dick, while denying Little Walder. Not much mystery here to me. I don't think Martin really intended for this to be a mystery, as the girls essentially confess to killing Yellow Dick (nor do they deny "the others" accusation in this admission) while would lead one to assume they killed the other men as well. Who killed Little Walder is slightly more questionable, though it seems extremely likely it was Manderly. Not only do we have the Wylla motive, but Manderly taunting the Freys seems like a "I'm smugly taunting you to your face almost admitting I killed this child and you can't do shit because I have 400 men inside Winterfell" speech.

But there is intended to be some kind of mystery because there is a random stranger walking around with a dagger who is unidentified. Whether he is killing people or not, there is still the general sense of mystery about the place.

[onetruegod]

is abel definately mance? could mance not have planted someone else as him self and be the hooded man? Mance would know theon as he has been to winterfell before but theon wouldnt know who mance was. as for wantin to kill theon, well doesnt everyone? i know i do

oh or it could be syrio forel, havent blindly suggested that an unknown character is him for a while

[darrylzero]

Slight aside:

If it's Manderly who is responsible for Little Walder's death, who do we think would have been his agent? Do we know anything about who Manderly has with him? Is Robett Glover there?

[Lummel]

page 617:

Theon: "Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you."

Holly laughed. "How could it be us? We're women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared."

That sure sounds like an extremely sarcastic confession to me. Much the same as Manderly's sarcastic taunting "I confess..." p. 676.

Also when Theon looks at the girls Rowan says "This was no work of ours". Then later on page 678 "You killed the others, why not him, Yellow Dick--" "--stank as bad as you. A pig of a man." "And Little Walder was a piglet. Killing him brought the Freys and Manderlys to dagger points, that was cunning, you--" "Not us."

She basically admits to killing Yellow Dick, while denying Little Walder. Not much mystery here to me. I don't think Martin really intended for this to be a mystery, as the girls essentially confess to killing Yellow Dick (nor do they deny "the others" accusation in this admission) while would lead one to assume they killed the other men as well. Who killed Little Walder is slightly more questionable, though it seems extremely likely it was Manderly. Not only do we have the Wylla motive, but Manderly taunting the Freys seems like a "I'm smugly taunting you to your face almost admitting I killed this child and you can't do shit because I have 400 men inside Winterfell" speech.

OK I see where you are coming from now on this. But I don't agree, I don't get a sense that their responses are sarcastic and more importantly it doesn't make any sense for them to be murdering people in Winterfell when what they want to do is sneak out with Arya.

Slight aside:

If it's Manderly who is responsible for Little Walder's death, who do we think would have been his agent? Do we know anything about who Manderly has with him? Is Robett Glover there?

No need to envoke Robett Glover. Manderly's got three hundred men including one hundred knights which gives him means, motive and plenty of opportunity if you want to make a case for Manderly as responsible for the murder of Little Walder.

[darrylzero]

No need to envoke Robett Glover. Manderly's got three hundred men including one hundred knights which gives him means, motive and plenty of opportunity if you want to make a case for Manderly as responsible for the murder of Little Walder.

I agree, just wondering if it would turn out to be a particularly close confidante or someone particularly capable or something. He does seem to be playing this pretty close to his cheat.