[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 13

[ipsuel]

I did not see that coming. :(

I was cheering when he said he was going south, and I was wondering what the heck was wrong with ghost.. but never did i see that coming.

Dayum. At least ghost is seemingly ok... (I thought he may die this chapter since there hasn't been any meaningful deaths yet lol).

One thing I will say is that something isn't kosher with Bolton's letter. I just don't buy it. Why? I can't say but I don't think it's all true.

[Howdyphillip]

Sick... I am just sick... I could rant for hours here, but it isn't the place to do so.

THEY KILLED MY NIGGA JON !!!!!!!

[Early Earl]

Ramsay's letter: It's all Ramsay's words and they are angry words. Lord Bolton wouldn't allow such things if he'd still be around, remember all of Ramsay's men are his truly? Stannis was warned of the treasories of Karstark by the Braavosi. Also Theon knew his name, last we saw him, nad had a tale to tell. The North remembers: Manderly wouldn't have stayed passive while at Winterfell and most of the northern lords would probably listen carfully to his words (the eyes were brown). No question, Ramsay's still at Winterfell with Mance in a cage and some troops. But I'm guessing the military power has switched by now to the "true notherners". Whether they are joining forces with Stannis, after disposing of the Freys to return to Winterfell soon, or are still waiting for an opportnity inside the walls I don't know. I'm certain the Boltons will be done soon.

Jon: Wtf? When he thought "I should've gone to the queen first" I knew danger was coming. Suspected it when he was asked to lock away Ghost. Will the Stark ever trust their wolves, dammit? Didn't see it coming this way.

I hope Jon's dead and stays dead an will not be resurrected.

- GRRM has done this trick too many times, it grows old. Bran&Rickon, Theon, Brienne, Asha... it grows old

- We need to be reminded that those things are not only possible but likely in this story. It's Ned's death that made it so exciting to read because you did not know that they'll survive in the end. So the only one to turn things for the good in KL died and so just did the only capable man of the watch. But there's Bran and Dany so there's hope...

[Mr. X]

Goddammit! The possibly fake spoiler that got sent to me via LiveJournal message back when amazon.de released ADWD early turned out to be (mostly) true. However, I'm not convinced that Jon is dead.

[Heal]

Ramsay's letter: It's all Ramsay's words and they are angry words. Lord Bolton wouldn't allow such things if he'd still be around, remember all of Ramsay's men are his truly? Stannis was warned of the treasories of Karstark by the Braavosi. Also Theon knew his name, last we saw him, nad had a tale to tell. The North remembers: Manderly wouldn't have stayed passive while at Winterfell and most of the northern lords would probably listen carfully to his words (the eyes were brown). No question, Ramsay's still at Winterfell with Mance in a cage and some troops. But I'm guessing the military power has switched by now to the "true notherners". Whether they are joining forces with Stannis, after disposing of the Freys to return to Winterfell soon, or are still waiting for an opportnity inside the walls I don't know. I'm certain the Boltons will be done soon.

Jon: Wtf? When he thought "I should've gone to the queen first" I knew danger was coming. Suspected it when he was asked to lock away Ghost. Will the Stark ever trust their wolves, dammit? Didn't see it coming this way.

I hope Jon's dead and stays dead an will not be resurrected.

- GRRM has done this trick too many times, it grows old. Bran&Rickon, Theon, Brienne, Asha... it grows old

- We need to be reminded that those things are not only possible but likely in this story. It's Ned's death that made it so exciting to read because you did not know that they'll survive in the end. So the only one to turn things for the good in KL died and so just did the only capable man of the watch. But there's Bran and Dany so there's hope...

I agree, I really hope Jon says dead. This plot device has been used to much for him just to be resurrected like so many others.

[Isgrimner]

That was the one spoiler I accidentaly came across right before the book came out. I was dreading it the whole time. Since I knew about it in advance, the clues were pretty prominant that Jon was in for some trouble.

Still, I've been fooled into thinking too many people are dead before they've actually became worm food, Theon several times I thought he was dead, Bran and Rickon, Davos, the Hound, Gregor, etc. It looked pretty bad for Jon, but his head was at least still attached, unlike Ned's.

[Calesta]

I am so bummed out hard to even read the rest of the book. Then thinking it may be 5-6 years for the next book to come out am really bummed.

It was looking that there was no way Jon would give up being commander of the wall.

[dreamcatcher]

I hope Jon's dead and stays dead an will not be resurrected.

- GRRM has done this trick too many times, it grows old. Bran&Rickon, Theon, Brienne, Asha... it grows old

- We need to be reminded that those things are not only possible but likely in this story. It's Ned's death that made it so exciting to read because you did not know that they'll survive in the end. So the only one to turn things for the good in KL died and so just did the only capable man of the watch. But there's Bran and Dany so there's hope...

NOOOOO!!!! :thumbsdown: So many chapters in this book and to just kill him off like this? Jon is definitely not dead. Well, he might be UNdead. And that will bring a whole lot of troubles with it (his memory, looks, etc), but this is a really pathetic way to forever finish off a protagonist. His living or dying doesn't even matter that much (for the realm - like Ned & Robb's deaths), the Wall is screwed anyway. Bran and Dany? Bran is becoming a tree and Dany's really unfit to be a ruler to anything.

I think this is a great plot device to finally get him off the wall without breaking his vow, he would've broken it because of Arya (as we saw in this chapter). She was his Achilles' heal. Now he's dead and his watch ends.

P.S. I DON't think Aegon is Jon's replacement, that boy is a bratty teenager and is def. not azor ahai. Not if he stays like this, anyway.

P.P.S. Remember the prophecy that Dany saw? About a man standing at the prow of a ship, his grey lips smiling sadly, and something about his dead eyes? I think that's Jon. Coming to fetch Arya or someting.

[Arryathecat]

I hope the wildlings take over the wall and kill all the traitors.

What bothers me is all these cliffhangers where we're left hanging on for years at a time. Garrrrrgh!

[duchess of malfi]

I believe that Jon IS dead.

Think back to the prologue when we got to learn more about warging. When a warg dies he can send his mind into a merge with his/her animal, though with time the humanity fades. We also learn that Jon is a warg of great power (if untrained).

Now think about Mel's vision of Jon being man, then wolf, then man.

I think what MIGHT happen is that Mel will bring back Jon's body - but rather than being a monster like Stoneheart, enough of his mind will survive by via merge with Ghost (his last world was "Ghost") that he will still be essentially Jon when all is said and done.

I know, I know - this is a series where a lot many dead or presumed dead people show up alive or reanimated.

But in this case the death makes too much sense plot wise. Death breaks Jon's vows. He will now be free to do whatever and be whatever the story requires of him.

Things are already very interesting militarily and politically in the North. Things might be much MORE interesting when Lord Jon Snow - declared Robb Stark's heir - is free from his duties at the Wall. It also frees him for marriage. Perhaps he might even be King of the North when a certain Queen and her dragons arrive in Westeros - a queen who has already proven willing to marry to bring peace - and we also know that someone can have more than one bond animal from the prologue...

[Lya Lamora]

Jon is dead, but he'll be reborn as Azor. It fits- the bleeding stars (Ser Patrek), the salt (Marsh's tears), the smoke ("In the cold night air the wound was smoking.") I think the Red Woman will definitely bring Jon back Dondarrion style, but he might not even be Jon anymore. He might be a kick ass, Lightbringer-wielding, son-of-a-Stark-and-Targaryen reborn savior of the world.

All praise Red Rahloo!

[Xray the Enforcer]

Jon's body might be dead (I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on that), but I'm pretty sure that Jon the person will warg into Ghost like Varamyr Sixskins did with One-Eye.

[The Lanky Umber]

Ummm.....WHAT!?!?!?!?!

[The Lanky Umber]

Was so excited by Jon's speech after reading Ramsey's letter outloud...then it came crashing down...

[Shakey]

Jon is dead.

It's been two books since we had a major character death. GRRM is reminding us that no one is safe. No one.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Well sh-t.

Worse then Ned.

Worse then the Red Wedding.

Just...

Damn.

I think i am going to die :( luvs Jon My hero

[Sanctume]

I believe that Jon IS dead.

Think back to the prologue when we got to learn more about warging. When a warg dies he can send his mind into a merge with his/her animal, though with time the humanity fades. We also learn that Jon is a warg of great power (if untrained).

Now think about Mel's vision of Jon being man, then wolf, then man.

I think what MIGHT happen is that Mel will bring back Jon's body - but rather than being a monster like Stoneheart, enough of his mind will survive by via merge with Ghost (his last world was "Ghost") that he will still be essentially Jon when all is said and done.

I know, I know - this is a series where a lot many dead or presumed dead people show up alive or reanimated.

But in this case the death makes too much sense plot wise. Death breaks Jon's vows. He will now be free to do whatever and be whatever the story requires of him.

Things are already very interesting militarily and politically in the North. Things might be much MORE interesting when Lord Jon Snow - declared Robb Stark's heir - is free from his duties at the Wall. It also frees him for marriage. Perhaps he might even be King of the North when a certain Queen and her dragons arrive in Westeros - a queen who has already proven willing to marry to bring peace - and we also know that someone can have more than one bond animal from the prologue...

It's a definite cliff hanger about Jon surviving at least 4 daggers.

But there is no likely candidate to rule the wall at this point.

Especially with many armed Wildings on the south side.

But The Queen Selsy arranged marriage with wilding to her lord knights.

But Mel / Rhllor is on the top of this hierchy, so that can at least help restore order.

I am curious what magic can Mel do for Jon.

As well as how warging can help Jon escape this situation.

Who is Azor Ashai (sp) Reborn ?

And what is Azor's prophecy (by Rhllor) got to do with Dany's 3 head dragon prophecy.

What is Quaithe's relation / connection to Rhllor?

[Swordswench]

At least part of Ramsay's letter has got to be BS because Theon showed up at Stannis' camp with Jeyne. It's unlikely they escaped from Ramsay's forces if they'd actually fought well enough to have killed Stannis, as Jeyne already showed signs of frostbite and we know Theon is quite weak (though better at this point than he used to be before Roose showed up). I think it's more likely that Ramsay is a lying bastard (heh), and mentions Mance and the spearwives because of the two of them his/Roose's men took out on Winterfell's walls. I guess if they'd gotten to Mance before he knew they were wise to him, he could've been captured, but it seems like a feint designed to enrage Jon into breaking his vows more than anything. They may have the walls of Winterfell lined with heads, but they're more likely Manderleys and Umbers than anyone with Stannis.

Jon's dead or dying. I'm extremely angered about it, but I don't think anyone's going to be able to come to his rescue before he does die. The question with regard to Melisandre's powers is whether or not they'll actually work that near to the Others. If he dies, and he's risen up from the dead, will he be a Dondarrion-type undead or a wight? Maybe a combination of the two? If Mel can and does manage it, I'm not too worried about him becoming some sort of shade of his former self, not with one raising done close to the time of his death (Stoneheart is raised many, many days after she died and putrefaction had set in so I don't think she's a good example to go buy). Donadarrion mentions something to the effect that each raising leaves him with less of himself than the previous IIRC, and if Jon does warg back into Ghost at death then he should be pretty good to go as he used to be. Of course how the experience will change him is another thing entirely.

Maybe Jon is the the Song of Ice and Fire? If the magics of the Others and R'hllor combine in his resurrection and he becomes an amalgam of both powers, he would be born of both ice and fire literally.

[AndyFatBastard]

BTW, what do you guys think about Ramsay's letter?

A load'a turnips, methinks.

The Boltons probably decided to give battle to Stannis, got out of the castle and found the half dosen Umbers waiting, since Stannis is STILL freezing somewhere else.

Using his superior skill at interrogation Ramsay found out where they've sent Reek and about other stuff (conditions on the wall, Stannis' prisoner etc. )

Yeah Ramsay's letter made no sense at all. If he'd killed Stannis then he'd have Reek and Jeyne back. There's no way they went anywhere in that weather.

[blasted_saber]

Im pretty stunned right now.

He CANT be dead. Hes got to come back. Right?