[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 13

[ACB]

I think that Jon isn't dead. A friend of mine have an interesting theory about the ASOIAF story. When a character seems dead in his own chapter, he is not dead. The characters died in other characters POV. If we think a little bit, all deaths have been like that. Ned died in Arya chapter. Catelyn seems dead in her own POV but she isn't (well she is, but she comes back...). Roob died in Catelyn's POV. Brienne seems dead in her POV but she turned out to be alive. Tyrion could be dead in a lot of his POV (black water battle or when he saves Aegon and falls into the river...) but he never is. Tywin, by other hand, died in Tyrion POV.

So, I think Jon will live. I really hope that he doesn´t become a bad person however (like UnJon or something).

And I think that there still are a lot of question about him that haven't been answered.

But we never know.

[Zorpack]

No way is Jon dead. Too many prophesies about him. For example, Dany in the house of the undying:

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons...bride of death...

--This to me implies that Jon must be alive...long enough for him to meet Dany and "fill the air with sweetness". Who else could the blue flower be referring to?

pages 700-707 AFFC

Why build up a mystery about his parentage just to kill him off?

Plot armor, plot armor, plot armor.

Also, the Red Wedding, Ned's Death...etc, those horrifying deaths didn't happen in a cliffhanger. GRRM knew it was important to follow up their deaths with confirmations of their deaths.

Imagine how pissed off we'd have been if Thrones ended with the Arya chapter in which Ned died. There'd have been years of people theorising how he wasn't dead...and then a hell of a lot of VERY angry people if he wasn't alive when Clash came out. I think Jon's death in this one is going to be more like Brienne's....he isn't.

Whether due to his "smoking wounds" (Melisandre resurrection), or him just needing some TLC for his wounds, he will definitely be around in Winds of Winter.

Whoa reading this and adding... "bride of dead" sounds like Dani marrying a resurrected Jon.

[SerJasonMallister]

If Jon survives this encounter, this would give him a reason to leave the wall and hopefully find out that he is the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, causing him to be the third remaining Targaryen and thus the third rider for the third dragon.

If he did not survive the encounter, Ghost was one of the last things Jon thought before he blacked out. Could this mean that he will survive as Ghost just as Varamyr Sixskins survived as the wolf

[KleZ]

l Knew before that Jon was going to get hurt (damn spoilers) but damn, l didnt see the whole Brutus Marsh thing coming.. You can say that the things Jon did to the wall were the rational things to do, but well.. the whole thing was going to implode at some point

l know that if George Martin would have wanted Jon to die he would have done it immediately, and not left us with a cliffhanger.. but he got stabbed 3 or 4 times.. l hope he doesnt die but for the moment l think he is dead until proven otherwise.

And for Marsh and his people well.. l think Marsh will definitely cause a blood bath

[The Answer]

l Knew before that Jon was going to get hurt (damn spoilers) but damn, l didnt saw the whole Brutus Marsh thing coming.. You can say that the things Jon did to the wall were the rational things to do, but well.. the whole thing was going to implode at some point

l know that if George Martin would have wanted Jon to die he would have done it immediately, and not left us with a cliffhanger.. but he got stabbed 3 or 4 times.. l hope he doesnt die but for the moment l think he is dead until proven otherwise.

And for Marsh and his people well.. l think Marsh will definitely cause a blood bath

The thing that keeps me so confident is the fact that Melisandre is there. And we've witnessed through Arya's chapters how Thoros was able to resurrect Beric Dondarion numerous times. And some of Beric's deaths sounded pretty gruesome as well.

Thoros is no Melisandre. If Mel wants Jon to live, then he will live.

[KleZ]

The thing that keeps me so confident is the fact that Melisandre is there. And we've witnessed through Arya's chapters how Thoros was able to resurrect Beric Dondarion numerous times. And some of Beric's deaths sounded pretty gruesome as well.

Thoros is no Melisandre. If Mel wants Jon to live, then he will live.

Yea, Mel is pretty powerful, she indeed said that her powers were at the full in the wall. But l hope it doesnt get to the point of resurrection, people brought back to life still have the wounds that killed them and sometimes are not the same..

l hope he doesn´t die, he may be the third head of the dragon (bastard son of Rhaegar and Ned´s sister), Aegon sister appears as dead and besides Jon, it appears that no one could be the other dragon´s head.. In Feast of crows l was certain that brienne died, and she later appeared from the thin air so.. yea its possible that Jon survives.

If he indeed survives lets hope he does start to trust in Ghost actions more.. No one hears the direwolfs lol Robb noticed that grey wind was acting weird around Frey´s people.. didnt do anything and then BAM, red wedding. Something similar happened with Ghost and the NW (Marsh) when they entered Jon´s room before he got the letter from Ramsay, he locked Ghost because he was acting weird and because Borroq was out there.. and we know what happened next.

[The Lord of Cinder]

I am really conflicted by this scene. Killing Jon would lead to a real war at the Wall between the Night's Watch and the wildlings, but killing him off just like that is kind of cheap.

He's alive, I would bet on it, even thought I find that too a tad cheap, but I guess it's necessary for the plot if Jon is going to be freed from his vows and become Asor Ahai reborn.

The Jon cliffhanger wouldn't have bothered me that much hadn't it been for all the others. Oh, GRRM, you better give us a good pay off when you've finished writing the book.

Will Melisandre resurrect him (the fact that she talked with Thoros and Beric in the series makes me believe in this theory even more)? Will he warg into Ghost? Or maybe he didn't die, maybe Mel's magic somehow saved him. If Jon is resurrected, I wonder if we'll lose him as POV, as with Cat, that would certainly make his death seem more important. Maybe we'll get a Tormund POV!

Jon is not dead, or else we'd already known that, GRRM likes to kill the hopes of his readers. But in the end, I know nothing.

[The Answer]

Yea, Mel is pretty powerful, she indeed said that her powers were at the full in the wall. But l hope it doesnt get to the point of resurrection, people brought back to life still have the wounds that killed them and sometimes are not the same..

l hope he doesn´t die, he may be the third head of the dragon (bastard son of Rhaegar and Ned´s sister), Aegon sister appears as dead and besides Jon, it appears that no one could be the other dragon´s head.. In Feast of crows l was certain that brienne died, and she later appeared from the thin air so.. yea its possible that Jon survives.

If he indeed survives lets hope he does start to trust in Ghost actions more.. No one hears the direwolfs lol Robb noticed that grey wind was acting weird around Frey´s people.. didnt do anything and then BAM, red wedding. Something similar happened with Ghost and the NW (Marsh) when they entered Jon´s room before he got the letter from Ramsay, he locked Ghost because he was acting weird and because Borroq was out there.. and we know what happened next.

I'm with you. And about your fears of resurrection.... I agree it would suck to see an UnJon type rather than just Jon, for obvious reasons. But even Beric was alert as ever, and he was resurrected like 6 times. But it's just not the same, he won't be the same person.

Ghost needs to be more involved. He can't leave his side. If anyone demands him to leave ghost behind, have ghost intimidate the hell out of him and that will be the end of it.

I hope he becomes intertwined with Daenerys as well. Some think it would be too cliché? F- That. Imagine Dany and Jon approaching eachother for the first time, it doesn't have to be for romantic interests; just imagine the insight GRRM would put into those chapters, how nervous they would be and all that.

[The Answer]

Will Melisandre resurrect him (the fact that she talked with Thoros and Beric in the series makes me believe in this theory even more)?

Yes! I am hoping that HBO added the Melisandre/Thoros exchange not only to get Edric Storm out of the way but substituting Gendry, but also to heighten the odds Mel will be able to resurrect Jon if dead.

[The Lord of Cinder]

Also, Julius Ceasar's death and Jon's really have some striking similarities (as mentioned earlier in the thread). At first Jon gets attacked by Wick, who doesn't really deal much damade. And when he tries to attack again, Jon grabs his wrist. In HBO's Rome pretty much the same happens. First this one guy just grabs Ceasar, then this other one tries to stab him, and Ceasar grabs the blade with his hand. Jon ends up being all confused, not understanding what is going on, and also Ceasar has pretty much no idea what is going on, and I can imagine him thinking the excact same thoughts as Jon: "He cut me. Why?". And then all hell breaks lose, people just stabbing and stabbing and stabbing, Bowen Marsh being the Brutus, not wanting to do it, but still does it because he thinks it is necessary. In Rome Brutus does also stab Caesar in the belly, just like Bowen does with Jon.

This is just a comparision between the two scenes, and I don't think it is a coincidence (wether or not GRRM was inspired by HBO's Rome, I cannot say, but Jon being Caesar cannot be a coincidence!). As for all the other parallels between Caesar's and Jon's deaths, there are so many I'm too lazy to even start.

[Three sisters]

I sincerely hope that Jon survives this stabbing. The Night's watch are a bunch of backstabbing buddies at times (cf. Mormont). Like some already pointed out: Mel is there. And Ghost can help Jon as well.

The Caesar-Jon comparison is a nice touch.

[Bad Hound!]

Jon's chapter end is very very similar to Asha's chapter end when she blacks out following her defeat at Deepwood Motte. And as we all know, she is not dead, so that gives us hope. Unless it's a trick by GRRM! ("See? Jon ends like Asha, and she is not dead, so.... but no: he is dead. Sorry")

I agree that whichever way, it seems a bit cheap. It's a cheap death if he is dead, and a cheap trick if he is not.

[Winterfell's ghost]

I am pretty convinced that somehow, Jon's the Azor Ahai,either he'll die and be resurrected (considering Mel's power as it has been stated before, that wouldn't be surprising) or he'll just survive. When he got stabbed, it is said that his would was smoking, not a very average reaction when you get stabbed. The only other moment where I remember such thing is when Moquorro (I don't remember how to spell his name) did heal Victarion's wound on the ship, then his arm started to burst smoke and he said himsef that he never felt his arm so powerful. That must be for a reason, I doubt GRRM would put smoking wound on Jon, one of the main characters, for no reasons.

Aso, It is quite strange that when she asked for pieces of Azor heahai in the flames, she was expecting to see things related to Stannis but instead, only saw Jon Snow. Why that? Considering her powers, I'd be pretty surprised that it is a coincidence; even considering that we can interprete visions and that we do can make mistakes, in that case, it's pretty clear; she saw jon Snow, not a riddle that could mean him or something else.

I am also wondering; am I the only one here who feel ike the hero's sword coud be Dawn? I mean, Dawn is pretty much a sword for heroes (only the best can wield it and the last one, Arthur Dayne, was the hell of a hero) and Dawn = pretty much a sun rise and lightbringer = could pretty much be interpreted as a dawn or a sunrise as for a name.

[stark1281]

Jon's chapter end is very very similar to Asha's chapter end when she blacks out following her defeat at Deepwood Motte. And as we all know, she is not dead, so that gives us hope. Unless it's a trick by GRRM! ("See? Jon ends like Asha, and she is not dead, so.... but no: he is dead. Sorry")

I agree that whichever way, it seems a bit cheap. It's a cheap death if he is dead, and a cheap trick if he is not.

I like this post. And I agree 100%

So Jon is not dead, he cannot be dead and he will return.

Still hit me hard when I read it, just like when I read the red wedding :(

[Cold Hands Luke]

...

[Black Words]

There seems to be alot of hate for this chapter but IMO i think it was one of the best chapters GRRM wrote. I believe there were some posts that kind of touched on this but this chapter peeled the layer of honor that the NW has hidded behind purely on reputation.

Just like Jaime (where at first we thought he was a complete douche but later showed there is much more to him) the wildlings have been heavily portrayed as being bad guys and the NW the good guys but we as readers know better. Jon emphazised that most of the current brothers who are on the wall did not want to be there willingly. What stuck with me the most that i have not seen written on here that much was the hall where the old brothers use to hang their shields that Jon gave his speech. It was an honor (and very patriotic) for someone to give their life to the greater cause of the realm and those brothers did it willingly. Now everyone in westeros would rather play "the game of thrones". Janos Slynt even brought some of that mentality to the wall and it seems to have stuck a bit. How is it that 2 back to back LC's were killed by their own men? It really shows the quality of recruits they bring in who never wanted to be there in the first place (unlike the men who came before them to hang their shields in the hall and give their lifes to the realm).

The current batch "believes" they are like the men before but their actions speak otherwise. All these chapters have led up to show that wildlings are not all that bad and they are only treated that way based on reputation (just like the current NW believes they are good/honorable based on reputation). Wun Wun was one of the best examples. How many times did Jon ask him to help them out and he did without any complaint? Did he ever mistreat anyone of the NW? Yet we are set to believe that he is bad?

To me this was the only way that Jon can see what the NW has turned into. I do believe he is alive and will eradicate all the garbage on the wall and replace with "real" good people regardless of their reputation (wildlings/giants etc...).

Really enjoyed this post (got me out of lurking!). I'm intrigued by GRRM's representations of corrupted/decayed ideals. The things we do for love honor, indeed! :cool4:

[LuigiStark]

Just finished reading this chapter. It felt very odd throughout, like something was amiss. The fact that Jon could not unsheathe Longclaw struck me in particular as being odd, granted he'd just been slashed at but it didn't sound a particularly bad wound, why would he not be able to draw his sword? Also worth noting is that there were other men around who are loyal to Jon, I find it hard to believe that none would have intervened upon seeing the Lord Commander being assaulted by Bowen Marsh and others. What's more is that prior to blacking out Jon doesn't suffer a wound that could be instantly fatal, if he did then maybe I could believe that his blacking out signifies his death but I'm more inclined to believe that he simply went unconscious.

Melisandre's presence, as noted by many others, also leads me to believe that Jon isn't dead (or won't stay dead if he did indeed die). Time and time again she warns him, she likely keeps a closer watch on him than he realises and when the commotion began with Wun Wun who's to say Melisandre didn't immediately look for Jon out of fear that the danger she foresaw was now close at hand? The fact that his wounds were 'smoking' also strikes me as being significant, I can only recall one other instance of a wound smoking and that is Victarion's hand after Moqorro has healed it using some red priest magic. I might be wrong but didn't Victarion pass out during Moqorro's healing ritual due to the pain? In Jon's case we're told that the wound started smoking and in the next sentence told how pain washed over him, this could signify that Melisandre has begun a healing ritual similar to the one Moqorro used and Jon has subsequently passed out because of it.

[Wylla FTW]

If Jon Snow lives/gets resurrected then I think a blood bath will happen on the wall before he can do anything. He’ll wake up to find no-one left to defend Westeros against the Others.

The AA theory makes a lot of sense, there has been so much foreshadowing, especially in the last book. But I do still wonder if GRRM is just waiting to pull the rug from underneath us.

I agree with the other posters saying that if this was the only cliffhanger of the book it would be ok. However the amount of cliffhangers for characters in this book is insane.

I also want to say I think Selsye is involved in the mutiny and if Jon is resurrected I hope it’s her that Melissandre kills to bring him back.

The thing thay puzzles me most about this chapter is why the hell is Bowen Marsh crying? It seems really odd. The boy before dropping his weapon before makes sense, so that he can then blend back into the crowd and not get blamed for his part in the mutiny.

[White Pine]

Oh! I didn't see that coming but should have. The troops were definitely not happy. Two mutinies in a row now - I think it's time they changed the recruitment system for the Night's Watch. They don't seem to be getting enough loyal/obedient "brothers". GRRM had reminded us of that with his history of the Shieldhall.

I'll be interested to see how GRRM deals with the mutineers. Will he have Jon (when he recovers), behead them, will the Wildlings avenge him or will it be something else.

Very pleased to see Ramsay is not a happy chappy. I too don't believe he's killed Stannis. The bit about Mance, I do believe. I also believe the letter is from Ramsay as I vaguely remember reading pink wax is hard to come by and it is specially made just for Roose Bolton.

I'm not sure if Jon is dead. Not enough info. was given. I do think he wargged into Ghost though. If he is dead and is resurrected by Melisandre I don't have a problem with it and don't think he'll act like a zombie. Beric Dondarrion was having fewer memories of his previous life each time he was resurrected but sanity wise, he was fine after his first death. There are a surprising number of comments in this thread from people freaking out at the possibility that Jon will become a zombie. It ain't going to happen. I have faith in GRRM. He knows what he is doing.

Re the "In the cold night air the wound was smoking", I couldn't help thinking GRRM was just teasing us and it was simply because it was very cold and the body heat was causing the 'smoke' just like your breath does. However, now that I've read LuigiStark's Post - #417, I now think they might be right.

What I do have problems with in this chapter is:

1. How did Ramsay's letter get to Castle Black? There were no ravens left at Winterfell. To have a raven fly to Castle Black, it has to have come from there in the first place. How/where did the Bolton's get Castle Black ravens?

2. Why was Jon in such a hurry to go to Winterfell? As other posters have said, he knew it was the wrong thing to do ..."The Night's Watch takes no part", ...What you propose is nothing less than treason". And ..."but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows", ..."No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oath breaking, the crime is mine and mine along." I suppose we should remember he is still very young - just like Dany is. Their ages can explain a lot of their actions. However I don't think the young age is enough - rushing off like that doesn't sound right - especially with all the other problems he was having re the Others, Wights and Wildlings. After reading all the other comments in this thread, it appears I'm not the only one suspicious about his decision to go to Winterfell.

I agree the Caesar stabbing homage is a nice touch to the story.

I haven't seen anything in this thread but did anyone else, anywhere on this forum, ever comment about the coincidence that this "Jon 13" chapter tells us about the Night Watch's betrayal of their Commander and that John 13 in the Christian Bible talks about Jesus identifying Judas as his betrayer? Btw, I'm not religious - it's just a chapter/number comparison and I was wondering if it was done on purpose by GRRM or is it just a coincidence.

[Deornoth]

If Jon does die and if Melisandre does resurrect him (I know, that's a lot of ifs...), what would that mean to his continued status as a member of the Nights Watch? If, according to the oath, a brother's watch does not end until his death, could Jon still serve in the Nights Watch after having died?