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[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 13


Xray the Enforcer

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I'd been hoping this would happen for a while- clearly the Watch had lost faith in him as a leader, he couldn't ride south when he was bound to his vows, etc etc etc. Thoros and Beric, Moqorro and Victarion, Melisandre has to have a trick up her sleeve.

Jon is dead, but he'll be reborn as Azor. It fits- the bleeding stars (Ser Patrek), the salt (Marsh's tears), the smoke ("In the cold night air the wound was smoking.") I think the Red Woman will definitely bring Jon back Dondarrion style, but he might not even be Jon anymore. He might be a kick ass, Lightbringer-wielding, son-of-a-Stark-and-Targaryen reborn savior of the world.

All praise Red Rahloo!

So this. Everything fits, and now he (with Ghost!) can ride south and kick all kids of ass with Stannis (a father figure, who quite likes him), who can name him Lord of Winterfell and all that other junk free from his vows, for now his watch has ended.

The Wildlings seem to care more about Jon (and Mance!) than those at Hard Home. Kicked off the wall by the new Lord Commander, the wildlings will have to choose (hopefully they'll be given that choice).

So, in summary, Stannis: Jon's coming, and he be bringing giants :D

ETA: Not buying Ramsay's letter for a second either. He is pure evil though, even the way he signed that parchment just oozes loathing, may be some of GRRM's best writing to make a character SO hate-able, way more-so than any Frey.

Also, hoping the epilogue may give us a bit of a taste of this- praying for a Melisandre (although he never uses actual POV's for them does he?) or especially a Ghost/Tormund POV!

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This came right after the chapter when Quentyn got burnt. Stannis and his army are dead. Ramsay Bolton has a firm grip on the North. Jon is now dead, too. SCREW YOU, GRRM. Though I tend to think that Quentyn's just dying, Ramsay was lying about Stannis, and Jon will be saved (ala Thoros, I guess).

BTW did that stabbing scene reminded anyone of Julius Caesar being stabbed in the senate by his fellow senators (with Bowen Marsh = Brutus)?

No quentin is dead. missendei said the prince is dead.

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On the other hand, when your liege lord summons you, doesn't he HAVE to go?

Ramsay Bolton IS NOT Jon's liege lord. If the Wall was under allegiance to the North (and it is not), Jon's liege lord would be Roose Bolton, not Ramsey.

If Jon would be still sworn to Winterfell (and he's not),then Ramsey wouldn't be Jon's liege lord either, because he's married to Arya and Jon have said several times that is Sansa the rightful heir.

he can't choose to obey the commands of Stannis and not the commands of Bolton.

First, he's not obeying the commands of Stannis:

Stannis: "Jon, be lord of Winterfell and marry Val".

Jon: "Nope"

Stannis: "Jon, give me your ruined castles to garrison my troops"

Jon: "Nope"

Stannis: "Jon, give me the lands from the Gift so I can reward my lords"

Jon: "Nope"

But even if he was obeying Stannis' commands, that doesn't imply he should follow Bolton's. Stannis is a king and the Boltons are not. If it would be different if the commands came from Tommen, but that's not the case. And again, the letter is signed by Ramsey who has not authority whatsoever.

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Hello everyone first post on this board

BTW did that stabbing scene reminded anyone of Julius Caesar being stabbed in the senate by his fellow senators (with Bowen Marsh = Brutus)?

Yep, I had the same filling about that and I’m wondering if the cliffhanger was not for Jon but was intended for the night’s watch?

If we drawn a parallel with Rome, when Caesar took the power he start to transform the republic, and Brutus and the conspirator kill him trying to save the republic but contrary to their hope Caesar's death precipitated the end of their precious roman republic.

When Jon was elected, he start to change things for the NW, here again Marsh and his acolytes stab him for the sake of the NW but for them it was maybe too late. Even if Jon is definitively dead (I can’t believe that, but if he is, kudos George, you got me. :P) or incapacitated, someone else (who, I don’t know) can continue to change the NW, especially if the wall fell one day… or not, but boy, wildlings against the NW on the wrong side of the wall, that will be messy.

Ok, it’s far-fetched, but if the scene is really inspired from the ides of March, I can’t believe there is no meaning behind that. ;)

PS: hope I’m clear, English is not my natural language. :P

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I am so mad right now. Jon deciding it was time to finally head south had me so excited, and then to kill him off. I know he can't be dead, or at least I pray he isn't dead, but I really don't want to wait six years to find out. Grrrr so mad. I could hit GRRM right now and it still wouldn't make me feel better. Btw 10x worse then the Red Wedding, never really cared for rob that much. I was distraught when I read the Red Wedding part, maybe even a bit sad, but I wasn't even close to being on this level of mad.

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I'm not seeing any vow breaking here. Jon could not hand over the queen, melisandre, monster and everyone else and hand them over to Ramsay, so I think Jon would have been quite within his rights to view Ramsay's letter as a direct threat on the Night's Watch and ride south to face him. Obviously Jon doesn't quite see it that way, since he was doing it for quite different reasons, but still. Probably wouldn't have made much difference anyway, Bowen and others were probably planning this for ages.

I was kind of hoping the AA prophecy would be bullshit... but I guess I got to remember that not everything I hate about the epic fantasy genre will be missing from these books.

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I am so mad right now. Jon deciding it was time to finally head south had me so excited, and then to kill him off. I know he can't be dead, or at least I pray he isn't dead, but I really don't want to wait six years to find out. Grrrr so mad. I could hit GRRM right now and it still wouldn't make me feel better. Btw 10x worse then the Red Wedding, never really cared for rob that much. I was distraught when I read the Red Wedding part, maybe even a bit sad, but I wasn't even close to being on this level of mad.

i agree with you. i was a little ticked off about the Starks being slowly wiped out because I thought the Stark represented good, but Rob was a minor character and not an integral prt of the story like Jon. Jon's death doesn't make sense to me because there was so much built up around him and he seemed to be central to much of the story of ASOIAF. A lot of people don't believe john is dead,but IMO, if he comes back like Beric Donderrian did then he'll still be like a walking corpse, and in reality it will just be amatter of time before he'll be gone for good. I'm hoping maybe some of the wildlings got there in time to stop them from killing him completely, and Jon may be severely wounded. It seems like GRRM likes to get you invested into a character then destroys him. I'm not sure I like that.

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I think we would have more definitive confirmation if Jon really had perished. Too many hints of rebirth.

The boy dies and the man is born. That's been in his head since the first chapter.

I think Melisandre will prove vital to Jon's survival.

I hope they don't kill Ghost, though. Man.... I couldn't bear that.

I wonder if Bran is somewhere nearby as well....

Heart-wrenching chapter. Geesh.

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I wouldn't say this is as bad as the Red Wedding. Not even close imo. Jon is too integral to the plot to just be killed like that. Add the fact that GRRM has been bringing characters back lately and all of the warg exposition at the beginning, Jon's not going to stay dead. I don't buy that for a second.

I agree 110 percent. In hindsight, Ned's death can basically be seen as a plot device - the "tipping point" that was needed to push the Seven Kingdoms toward outright war/chaos. On the other hand, this series is very invested in Jon as one of the central POV characters, and there are still a few loose ends surrounding his story arc. Killing him off completely after all this time seems like sloppy storytelling - basically just yanking the rug out from under the readers for no apparent reason.

I think the entire point of the ADWD prologue was to set up the concept that warging abilities can give one the ability to live on in the body of a "host" animal. Considering Jon's increasingly close relationship with Ghost, it now seems like a given that at least some part of Jon will live on in his direwolf. I previously hadn't considered the possibility of Melisandre's "magical" powers and the fact that we have seen R'hllor's priests perform resurrections before, but that also seems like a strong contender. And, since (as others have pointed out) death would conveniently free Jon from his Night's Watch vows, being "dead" might be the best thing that could happen to the guy!

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Sorry if this has already been posted, but I don't think he is dead for one main reason. We need a point of view for when the White walkers attack the wall.

That could be Melissandre.

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Who the fuck cares if Jon is revived? He wont be Jon anymore, JON IS DEAD! I dont want no zombie wearing Jon's face no matter how kick-ass or influential he is, even if he is AA or the Ice :tantrum::tantrum::tantrum:

I'm gonna burn the book after I'm done :bang::bang:

No he is not ! As long as we do not see a confirmation of his death Jon is not dead. Period.

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well I don't care if he's dead as long as he stays dead.

this whole thing of bringing people back to life is tiresome and too much like Bobby Ewing coming back to life in Dallas.

it lessens the impact of a major death if your first thought is "well, he'll just warg into Ghost or come back as a zombie" etc.

I suspect he'll have warged into Ghost by the next book (yawn).

I think Mel had a hand in Jon's stabbing.

wasn't there something about Wek dropping the knife like he didn't know what he was doing?

I think she had possessed him somehow to do the deed.

Ramsey's letter is deffo dodgy.

Loved the wording of it though, he's such an utter cuntface it's hard not to like him :devil:

ah well, we only have to wait another 6 years to see how this all pans out :wacko:

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well I don't care if he's dead as long as he stays dead.

this whole thing of bringing people back to life is tiresome and too much like Bobby Ewing coming back to life in Dallas.

it lessens the impact of a major death if your first thought is "well, he'll just warg into Ghost or come back as a zombie" etc.

I suspect he'll have warged into Ghost by the next book (yawn).

I think Mel had a hand in Jon's stabbing.

wasn't there something about Wek dropping the knife like he didn't know what he was doing?

I think she had possessed him somehow to do the deed.

Ramsey's letter is deffo dodgy.

Loved the wording of it though, he's such an utter cuntface it's hard not to like him :devil:

ah well, we only have to wait another 6 years to see how this all pans out :wacko:

Mel had been warning him about daggers in the dark for a long time now, I dont think she was responsible.

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The more I think about this, the more pissed I get and no amount of speculation about his future is really helping. I keep reading articles where GRRM says he "plays for keeps" and that "nobody is safe." And yeah, I get that, but I feel completely robbed right now. And what's worse is that I don't think we'll get confirmation in the next book. I feel like things will move so slowly that if he does pop up again, it will be in book 7 where we hear rumors about someone or other, then the pop up at the last minute.

Either way, the Wall is screwed. The Wildlings are gonna freak out because he was one of the only crows they'd listen to.

I'm just feeling it hard today! I need a crybaby intervention. :worried:

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While it is possible that Jon died at the end of the chapter, we didn't actually SEE him DIE. People can live through stab wounds. Especially with Melisandre around. So...he's not necessarily undead if he comes back. Just healed.

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Jon is definitely not gone.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

Now it's just a matter of finding out whether he will come back warging on someone, or become unJon, or just be healed.

Out of these, I sincerely prefer that he is just healed by Melissandre, we've had enough of warging, unPeople, and reborns.

Though, this is an extremely disappointing end for Jon's arc.

Not because Jon seems to have died, as I said, I think there are no reasons for us to think so.

It's disappointing because it's cheap. I honestly expected more, way more, from GRRM.

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