[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Black Crow]

And it is very unlikely that Jon is going to need literal rebirth. It was pointed out many, many times that his injuries were not fatal. There are accounts of people in medieval times surviving worse injuries in cold enviroment. It most likely, that rebirth will be metaphorical (as in Kill the boy, let the man be born...) as I don't believe Jon wouldn't be emotionally affected by his brothers's attack.

Perfectly true and I have been arguing the same for quite some time now.

I don't want to sound at all patronising but you haven't been on this board very long so may not appreciate the background to all of this. Right from day one (or at least from the moment people got their hands on ADwD and read through as far as the assassination attempt), people have been trying to rationalise Jon's possible death by proclaiming that being offed and then kissed better by Mel will allow him to (1) free himself from his Nights Watch vows - ignoring the fact he's already done so in that same chapter - to become Lord of Winterfell, (2) become Azor Ahai - notwithstanding the fact on which we're apparently both agreed that being reborn as AA doesn't require the candidate to die first.

This story and Jon's part in it still has a long way to go and I just see what's to come as being a lot more complex and unexpected than jumping to the conclusion, as so many have, that Jon is being killed off in order to be reborn as AA and save the world and instead I'm suggesting that Jon's inability to draw the sword (albeit without any fire) is just a little hint from GRRM that he aint AA. :cheers:

[Tezeu]

I don't wanna be rude or annoying but seriously (I, myself am a huge Jon fan because I want to know whom he's parent/s are) I would lough my ass of if Jon was really, really dead (not in the Catelyn or the mountain way but really, really dead). That will mean open war on the south side of the Wall... It would be so fun to see Tormund proclaim himself King of the Wall.

[Whatever]

There are quite a few Azor Ahai candidates it seems. I do believe it is a male, but it is entirely possible there are many that are setup to be Azor Ahai, perhaps each Red Priest/Priestess that seeks Azor Ahai sort of causes a candidate to come into being, but in the end, due to death, etc., and they must fight until the last, for in the end, there can be only one.... :laugh:

Seriously, it is possible that several are sort of being setup to be Azor Ahai, Maybe Jon, Stannis, Victarion are all sort of candidates, chosen by the Red God, or caused to be by various Red Priests, sort of a contingency to ensure Azor Ahai is reborn, but only one will fulfill the prophecy.

you mean, like Highlander? :P

Perfectly true and I have been arguing the same for quite some time now.....that Jon is being killed off in order to be reborn as AA and save the world and instead I'm suggesting that Jon's inability to draw the sword (albeit without any fire) is just a little hint from GRRM that he aint AA. :cheers:

i kinda agree with youabout jon not being dead, but the "can't draw the sword = he's not AA" part doesn't make sense. I'll explain: there are many AA candidates.

Davos is one. He isn't very likely, but he doens't have a sword. Stannis is another. He has a fake sword, and none of the other "signs". Dany has been considered way more likely than anybody else (at least before the avalanche of jon is AA hints in dance) She would fufil the propecy in a literary way, but she doesn't have a sword. The sword is NOT important to define Azor Ahai

The reason because jon didn't draw the sword is the blood loss, the shock and the NEED to have jon stabbed, to end with a death-like cliffhanger. 4 stewards + knives = dangerous for Jon. 4 stewards + knives = no match for Jon + sword.

[Duskfire]

Tormund becoming King of the Wall would be awesome! the New Lord Captain. Just a few more titles to add to his already massive err.. list.

[morrisseyjunior]

Doesn't AA have to be reborn before he draws the sword? Also the reason he can't draw his sword could be from, you know, being stabbed, its a way to explain why Jon didn't fight back and kill the stewards, Jon Snow VS 3 or 4 Stewards, I know who I would place my money on.

He couldnt draw his sword because his hands were cold and clumsy. This does not mean anything was wrong with the sword, just with Jon.

[Whatever]

He couldnt draw his sword because his hands were cold and clumsy. This does not mean anything was wrong with the sword, just with Jon.

yes, but this doesn't affect jon being/not being an AA candidate. It's just something the plot needed

[Whatever]

bad, bad mozilla

[Black Crow]

He couldnt draw his sword because his hands were cold and clumsy. This does not mean anything was wrong with the sword, just with Jon.

Yeah, I agree and just for the record I'm the one who first suggested waay back that Jon's wounds were survivable without needing any magical intervention by Mel the Succubus - citing as an example Ser Adrian Scrope who survived multiple wounds at the battle of Edgehill in 1642 because the cold prevented excessive blood-loss.

I also think, just for the same record, that the sequence of events leading up to and during the assassination attempt are a fair reflection of the way these things actually go and that no acting out of character, glamours, warging or anything else beyond human frailty and terror was required to produce the outcome.

Consequently I think too many people are working way too hard on this one, dredging up the various portents to justify Jon's being brought back to life as AA.

I think its stretching things to interpret Ser Patrek the rag-doll as the bleeding stars and Marsh's tears as the salt and suggest that its all GRRM's little joke by offering these clues along with the counter-balancing inability to draw the sword.

In the end we haven't seen the body and as Jon's wounds are survivable his continued part in the story is not solely dependent on Mel "reviving" him in order to act out her fantasy, because even if he is destined to be AA, which I very seriously doubt because apart from anything else its too damn trite, as we've discussed above being "reborn" as AA is figurative rather than literal and does not require the candidate to die first - unless Stannis isn't telling us something.

As I've said before my view is that Jon will survive to serve the Old Gods not R'hllor and the Red Priests. :thumbsup: