[ADwD Spoilers] Jon and Dany character devolution

[The Human Abstract]

Honestly I think Jon's been a fairly wise commander, and I was impressed. Maybe he needs to be out of the way because he's too competent and the Others need a leg up. He locked up Ghost because the wolf was going nuts, and he misinterpreted the reason for that. Had he known he was a character in a fantasy story where the author loves betrayal, he could've made the right decision. My dog goes nuts if there's a squirrel.

Melisandre has not proven to be reliable to him either. We actually know why he doesn't pay attention to her, and it's perfectly reasonble.

[R_Thunder]

I guess here's my main complaint of Jon.

If you want to kill him, throw him off the wall. Don't make him revert to something completely out of his character just to leave a cliffhanger. Ned stayed Ned until the end, honorable to a fault, but protecting his children to the end.

At least Robb's death was reasonable to his character. Jon's isn't. Probably why he isnt really dead.

Dany - what damocles said.

[Dragonfish]

It was clear that Jon didn't fully trust Mel. Recall his complaints to her regarding her failed visions. Who besides her gave him that warning? Sounds like you're saying Jon is stupid because he didn't listen.. to someone he didn't trust. Not a fair judgement.

No, he's stupid for not listening to his own advice. He knows Ghost can sense danger, yet when he tenses up at Bowen Marsh and company he attributes it to some boar that's not even in the room. Just stupid. It's like GRRM was trying to come up with a reason for why Jon wouldn't listen to Ghost, and the best thing he could come up with was, "Uhhh...a boar was there!" What's worse is that all of this was in service of a plot that was basically a rehash of what happened to Ned and Robb. It almost feels as if GRRM is running out of ideas.

[HarransRoast]

He can't really send away the First Builder and the First Steward, though. They're high officers of the Watch and are vital to organizing things.

He can't send them away for the sake of sending them away but he can tell them, you are going to go work on this project I'm setting you if you like it or not.

They basically balked at whatever he asked of them and he allowed them too. Had he forced them to work with the wildlings and giants nothing that happened would have ever happened. I find it funny that he's basically a Mormont parallel.The both get literally stabbed in the back for trying to do what's best for the watch.

[Jon AS]

If Jon didn't go save his father, avenge his brother Robb and OTHER brothers, it doesn't make sense he'd go to Bolton. Sorry. Don't buy it at all, weak weak plot device.

All because he called him a bastard and said he'd eat his heart. Yeah. "They hate me because I'm better than them!" Game of Thrones Jon all over agian. Utter nonsense.

Of course he has a good reason to go. It's his job as Lord Commander to make sure that the Watch can defend the Wall. If they are attacked by the Boltons from the south they can't do that. Ergo the Lord Commander has to do something about it.

[Volderon]

No, he's stupid for not listening to his own advice. He knows Ghost can sense danger, yet when he tenses up at Bowen Marsh and company he attributes it to some boar that's not even in the room. Just stupid. It's like GRRM was trying to come up with a reason for why Jon wouldn't listen to Ghost, and the best thing he could come up with was, "Uhhh...a boar was there!" What's worse is that all of this was in service of a plot that was basically a rehash of what happened to Ned and Robb. It almost feels as if GRRM is running out of ideas.

Not even, it's Mormont all over again being killed by his own men. Must be the start of a new tradition.

[Ran]

The Yunkish wanted a guarantee that Dany would not meddle in their slave trade ever again. She didn't want to give that, because (as I said) she had a long-term vision of ending slavery, but she's manifestly not acting to do it now because she has bigger and more immediate concerns.

She knows Yunkai is back to slaving (Astapor, too) but she doesn't stir to go and smash them. As she advised Cleon, she was tending her own garden.

HarransRoast,

I believe they actually agreed to everything he ordered them to do. They balked and hemmed and hawed, they clearly felt he railroaded them more than once, but they did it. Unless I'm forgetting some example.

[Damocles]

Honestly I think Jon's been a fairly wise commander, and I was impressed. Maybe he needs to be out of the way because he's too competent and the Others need a leg up. He locked up Ghost because the wolf was going nuts, and he misinterpreted the reason for that. Had he known he was a character in a fantasy story where the author loves betrayal, he could've made the right decision. My dog goes nuts if there's a squirrel.

Melisandre has not proven to be reliable to him either. We actually know why he doesn't pay attention to her, and it's perfectly reasonble.

Except that in this particular fantasy story, he placed great stock in how Ghost reacted to others, and kept him near for that reason.

Also, I reckon your dog hasn't saved your life like seventeen times. Or even once.

[Volderon]

Of course he has a good reason to go. It's his job as Lord Commander to make sure that the Watch can defend the Wall. If they are attacked by the Boltons from the south they can't do that. Ergo the Lord Commander has to do something about it.

I don't buy it, stay at Castle Black just like they did with the widlings, Bolton is going to have to go through snow just like Stannis did, it'll take him a LONG time to get there and he'd have his men frozen to death and starving.

[BarrileteCosmico]

About Ghost - I think it's pretty established that the direwolves are Stark protectors and when they're not around something bad is going to happen to them and can sense danger through apparently magical ways. I remember there being some people who debated this idea a few months ago, but this ending provides more evidence towards it. If any of the Stark direwolves are locked up and can't help then you should assume that something bad is going to happen to the Stark kids.

[Dragonfish]

She's pretty much a joke now, she didn't make decisions based on what was best for the cities she conquered she just basically did whatever she wanted because she got emotional.

Now this isn't really true. She married Hizdahr (sp) when she wanted Daario. She opened the fighting pits even though she hated them. And most of all, she stayed in Meereen because she felt obligated to the freedmen who'd get slaughtered/enslaved if she left. How anyone can say that she "basically did whatever she wanted" is beyond me.

[Blue Winter Rose]

I think freeing all those slaves was a really bad decision. Her heart is in the right place but you cannot get rid of the institution of slavery like that and then not have a plan afterward. What exactly was her plan after she freed all those slaves? Did she consider things like

How will they support themselves financially?

[awesome possum]

He can't really send away the First Builder and the First Steward, though. They're high officers of the Watch and are vital to organizing things.

That's what ravens are for, though. Maybe he couldn't have sent both of them away, but why not send Yarwyck to oversee renovation of a fort? And he could have sent Marsh's closest confidantes away and replaced them with his own men.

Seems like yet another case of a Stark believing everyone around him should be as honorable as himself.. which is stupid for Jon to still believe so, considering the types of men who make up the Night's Watch. Not to mention that it was his own brothers who had him tossed into an ice cell.

Both Jon and Dany seemed to have forgotten half of what they've learned during their journeys.

[Damocles]

About Ghost - I think it's pretty established that the direwolves are Stark protectors and when they're not around something bad is going to happen to them and can sense danger through apparently magical ways. I remember there being some people who debated this idea a few months ago, but this ending provides more evidence towards it. If any of the Stark direwolves are locked up and can't help then you should assume that something bad is going to happen to the Stark kids.

The funny thing is that there are those reading this thread who knew Robb was going to die the moment Grey Wind was locked up...Not just a few months ago, but like ten years ago. The novelty value has been lost though, on that particular 'surprise'.

[Ran]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Something Dany has learned, I expect. It's one thing to want something, it's quite another to actually get it.

[Damocles]

I will reiterate that at the end, I do believe that there are ways you can twist and justify both Dany and Jon's actions.

But we shouldn't have to. And it's quite valid to take issue with the storytelling. I think these two characters suffered the most, by far, from GRRM's nixing of the 5 year gap, and I think in ADwD, we're seeing the consequences of it. And why it took ten years to release these chapters.

I think at one time, GRRM was probably unhappier about it than we are. But in the end, decided to just cut the gordian knot as, it were. And that's why we saw the '2010' versions of Jon and Dany that the last half of ADwD gave us.

[BarrileteCosmico]

The funny thing is that there are those reading this thread who knew Robb was going to die the moment Grey Wind was locked up...Not just a few months ago, but like ten years ago. The novelty value has been lost though, on that particular 'surprise'.

Oh, absolutely. I had the same reaction when Grey Wind was taken away.

[Direwolf_Warg]

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me.-ADWD, US Hardcover, p.912

People seem to assume that when Jon is betrayed, he didn't trust Melisandre's visions.

Look to the skies, Lord Snow, and the raven's arrival changed that, and we see it in the text.

[Steve Moss]

and BTW, Jon doesnt leave when his father and brother die, but when Ramsay Bolton in all his craziness writes a letter to him, he decides to leave? doesn't make sense

It makes sense in that he's heading south to fight now that:

1. His duty (protection of the NW) requires it of him; and,

2. He now has the swords that will follow. As a practical matter, deserting earlier would only have gotten him labeled oath breaker and his head chopped off.

Oh give me a break!! He is repeatedly warned to keep Ghost close, and then he thinks about how Ghost is always with him anyways. And then without even any break in his internal dialogue, he abruptly starts confining Ghost in his room.

Obviously, Ghost was acting hostile to the brothers that he sniffed were plotting against Jon. Jon knew he was disliked. He knew there was a plot because Mel told him. But then abruptly discarded her wisdom because his 'sister' turned out to be Alys Karstark instead of Arya Stark. Obviously Mel made it all up cause she was so hugely off-base!

Anyhow, things hardly couldn't have worked any worse than getting stabbed multiple times if he kept Ghost close. It was Ned and Robb all over again. Just more obvious and more frustrating, because GRRM has rarely been so brutally clumsy in handling his most important characters. In fact, every Jon and Dany chapter of the first three books came across as incredibly meticulous.

The Jon who had Janos hanged has almost zero resemblance to the Jon who ended up getting himself stabbed.

Not true. See below.

No internal dialogue about locking Ghost up? Warnings about keeping him close?

A huge factor in keeping Ghost locked up was the wargboar. He certainly thought about that.

There may be other factors at play here. Remember, the Wildings were coming in, swearing allegiance, giving hostages, etc. Essentially, the Beyond the Wall version of the bond of liegeman and lord was being formed between them and Jon. The Wilding and his wargboar were Jon's guests at that point. He couldn't put them North of the Wall, he couldn't dismiss them and send them elsewhere (they needed their feast to seal the deal) and he needed to be seen by the Wildlings as showing proper courtesy.

Yes, he should have kept Ghost close. But he wan't stupid. Ghost was in his chambers, ensuring that he wouldn't be ambushed there (probably any leader's weakest point, all said, as everyone knows where he sleeps). Jon was in a very public place surrounded by hundreds of friends and allies. He as safe there as anywhere, and had safeguarded his rooms while at the same time fulfilling his social/feudal obligations to the Wildlings. He only feel prey to determined assassins who apparently aren't afraid of getting caught, and there isn't much one can do about that as a half dozen or so highly guarded US Presidents can attest.

Jon was becoming a good leader, yes. But a terrible one at the same time. Instead of sending away those men who disliked and distrusted him, he sent away his friends and kept those men close. Just stupid. Being a good leader doesn't mean you can't have friends.

He could hardly send prejudiced, incompetents (which Bowen and Yarwick kind of are) out on independent commands, especially those with Wildling troops involved, can he? He has to send out those who aren't completely stupid, loyal and competent as he can feel confident that they will obey his orders (despite the distance) and have a reasonable prospect of holding their castles against attack(which is the whole point of rebuilding them). Unfortunately, that means his friends.

Jon followed the old maxim of keep your friends close and your enemies closer. He was wise to do so, as I suspect that most the the NW at Castle Black was loyal to him and he was mostly safe. If he had a fault it was that he was not prepared for a brazen public assassintion. That was pretty ballsy on Marsh's part and lends credence to Socrates statement (paraphrased) that the most dangerous thing in the world to tyrants (i.e. leaders) is a man with a knife who isn't afraid to die. You can't prevent the attempt if someone wants it badly enough.

[Eaglewood]

The board just ate my big long rant. Blah.

Summary -

Jon was a good commander until the incredibly stupid and irrational final chapter. He deserved to get stabbed.

Dany deserved to be stabbed as well, maybe even moreso since her chapters never showed her to be a good leader at all. Instead she took off when confronted with all her values being undone and left Barristan to pick up the mess. Awful.

Take Jon's final chapter out, 90% of Dany's chapters, and give the situation at Winterfell a conclusion and this would have been a damn good book