Jump to content

[ADwD Spoilers]The Mummers dragon


Recommended Posts

Couldn't be Quentyn Martell the Mummer's Dragon?

That is, he's not the strongest candidate, but he was sent to her by the obedience to his father commands (as a mummer commands his dolls) and he was convinced to be more of a dragon that it turned out to be.

Cheers everybody.

He's more likely to be "the sun's son."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it means that at all. The point if fulfillment of the prophecy of which all 3 would come from Targaryen blood.

There are lots of people running around with Targaryen blood that aren't Targaryen. For example, the Blackfyres aren't Targaryens. They are of the Targaryen bloodline, even legitimized, but they aren't Targaryen. The Martells aren't Targaryens either, but they have a lot of Targaryen blood.

It is interesting that he used the phrase that the third head doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. That means he could have had a slip of the tongue. Aegon could really be Aegon Targaryen, the second head, and he meant some other person without the Targaryen name could be the third head.

Martin has said that one DOES NOT have to be a Targaryen to be an eventual dragon-rider.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They're not mutually exclusive since they were from different prophecies...

That said, no one cheered on Quentyn.

This is true. So, you found a good reason to rule him out, unless the cheering people were not cheering at him but simply around him as, say, in the gladiator's arena. But that does not work to me.

PS: I'm going to take a look to the sun's son thing, as I don't know about it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But then if you decide that Quentyn Martell is the mummer's dragon then who is going to be the Sun's son?

Thats pretty much it, the only way that Quint could be the mummers dragon is if another Martell was the Suns Son. And the only persons active is Arianne, but even with Dorne recognising female heirs, its still a stretch to consider her a "son".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats pretty much it, the only way that Quint could be the mummers dragon is if another Martell was the Suns Son.

Who's to say "the sun's son" refers to a Martell at all? GRRM has repeatedly associated the men of House Martell with the spear, not the sun. My personal crackpot theory is that maybe "the sun's son" refers to Harrion Karstark (since the Karstark sigil is a sunburst and according to The Citadel their words are "the sun of winter"). Harrion was last seen as a captive in Maidenpool, and as other threads have pointed out, there's a decent chance the guy who captured Maidenpool, who's son is married to the heir of Maidenpool---Randall Tarly--will go over to Aegon. Tarly would then be in a position to turn over Harrion Karstark to Aegon, and who knows, maybe he and Aegon will hit it off. Presumably there's some reason GRRM has left Harrion Karstark alive and in the south.

GRRM keeps describing Connington as wearing wolfskins, and wearing wolfskins is usually shorthand for "will oppose the Starks". If Aegon (under Connington's tutelage) wants to depose the Starks, a Karstark would seem to him like a perfect choice for the new Warden of the North: Harrion's father abandoned (and was murdered by) Robb Stark, and the Karstarks derive from the Starks but are not Starks--raising up Harrion would prevent Aegon from "rewarding" the family that rose up against the Targs, while simultaneously be raising up someone with a close enough tie to the Starks that theoretically the Northern lords will accept it. (Hey, Stannis was willing to try installing a Karstark in Winterfell.) If Harrion Karstark allies with Aegon, and supports him over Dany, that might explain why Quaithe's prophecy pairs the sun's son with the mummer's dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who's to say "the sun's son" refers to a Martell at all? GRRM has repeatedly associated the men of House Martell with the spear, not the sun. My personal crackpot theory is that maybe "the sun's son" refers to Harrion Karstark (since the Karstark sigil is a sunburst and according to The Citadel their words are "the sun of winter"). Harrion was last seen as a captive in Maidenpool, and as other threads have pointed out, there's a decent chance the guy who captured Maidenpool, who's son is married to the heir of Maidenpool---Randall Tarly--will go over to Aegon. Tarly would then be in a position to turn over Harrion Karstark to Aegon, and who knows, maybe he and Aegon will hit it off. Presumably there's some reason GRRM has left Harrion Karstark alive and in the south.

GRRM keeps describing Connington as wearing wolfskins, and wearing wolfskins is usually shorthand for "will oppose the Starks". If Aegon (under Connington's tutelage) wants to depose the Starks, a Karstark would seem to him like a perfect choice for the new Warden of the North: Harrion's father abandoned (and was murdered by) Robb Stark, and the Karstarks derive from the Starks but are not Starks--raising up Harrion would prevent Aegon from "rewarding" the family that rose up against the Targs, while simultaneously be raising up someone with a close enough tie to the Starks that theoretically the Northern lords will accept it. (Hey, Stannis was willing to try installing a Karstark in Winterfell.) If Harrion Karstark allies with Aegon, and supports him over Dany, that might explain why Quaithe's prophecy pairs the sun's son with the mummer's dragon.

Interesting.

Keep in mind that there's still Trystane, as a candidate for "the sun's son". But he's not going anywhere near Dany, that we know of, and he's also not accompanying Myrcella up to KL. Just thought I'd mention it.

I think Aegon is fake, and that Quent was the "sun's son", for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm all for alternative theories and whatnot, but in this case, I think Quentyn is in fact the sun's son (and also the "sun that rises in the west and sets in the east" or however it was worded). And yes I know the spear's there too, but "sun's son" has a kind of pun punch to it that "sun-and-spear's son" just doesn't.

I think "sun's son" and "mummer's dragon" were paired because both were trying to make marriage alliances with Dany. That's what links them, thematically, and in the prophecy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm all for alternative theories and whatnot, but in this case, I think Quentyn is in fact the sun's son (and also the "sun that rises in the west and sets in the east" or however it was worded). And yes I know the spear's there too, but "sun's son" has a kind of pun punch to it that "sun-and-spear's son" just doesn't.

I think "sun's son" and "mummer's dragon" were paired because both were trying to make marriage alliances with Dany. That's what links them, thematically, and in the prophecy.

Yes, but so was Victarion, yet "kraken" wasn't paired with either.

We still have two books (or 3), and I don't think we can assume that any aspect of Quaithe's prophecy has been fulfilled just yet. Remember how the AA/PTWP prophecy so "clearly" referred to Dany as of ACOK, yet now many readers think it's about Jon? A similar thing could be going on here.Dany thinks the sun's son is Quentyn, and there's evidence to support that, but there's also evidence against it. And for all we know, Dany will meet up with someone in Book 6 or Book 7 (or Book 8) that unambiguously means her harm and who fits "the sun's son" even more accurately than Quentyn. Basically, I just think it's too early to say definitively "this is what the prophecy is about" because GRRM so loves throwing us (and his characters) curveballs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but so was Victarion, yet "kraken" wasn't paired with either.

We still have two books (or 3), and I don't think we can assume that any aspect of Quaithe's prophecy has been fulfilled just yet. Remember how the AA/PTWP prophecy so "clearly" referred to Dany as of ACOK, yet now many readers think it's about Jon? A similar thing could be going on here.Dany thinks the sun's son is Quentyn, and there's evidence to support that, but there's also evidence against it. And for all we know, Dany will meet up with someone in Book 6 or Book 7 (or Book 8) that unambiguously means her harm and who fits "the sun's son" even more accurately than Quentyn. Basically, I just think it's too early to say definitively "this is what the prophecy is about" because GRRM so loves throwing us (and his characters) curveballs.

"Kraken" was paired with "dark flame," and if you theorize that the "dark flame" is Moqorro (which I'm leaning toward, with the Blackfyre pretender/"Aegon" as the mummer's dragon), then they too "fit" together as a pair — they're traveling together. Same sort of thing where the "lion" (Tyrion) and "griffin" (Connington) go together, because for part of the journey to Dany, they're moving concurrently.

Dany "peaked" as the AA contender in the first book, not the fifth one. I don't think it's quite the same thing, narratively.

Quentyn might not be the sun's son, who knows, but I'd say he's far and away the primary candidate and I see no other truly viable alternative (a Karstark, really?). Would you say that Tyrion isn't the lion in the prophecy, and Connington isn't the griffin? If you think they aren't, why not? And if you think they are, why are you sure of them but not sure of Quentyn? And if Quentyn isn't the sun's son, who would he be, according to the prophecy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Kraken" was paired with "dark flame," and if you theorize that the "dark flame" is Moqorro (which I'm leaning toward, with the Blackfyre pretender/"Aegon" as the mummer's dragon), then they too "fit" together as a pair — they're traveling together. Same sort of thing where the "lion" (Tyrion) and "griffin" (Connington) go together, because for part of the journey to Dany, they're moving concurrently.

That's actually part of my point. Kraken/Dark Flame and lion/griffin (if they are who we assume, which of course isn't a given) were all paired together and traveling together, yet the assumed candidates for sun's son and mummer's dragon never even met. There's a divergence there that I find odd.

Though I do think it's worth noting that the "pairing" might ultimately be meaningless. We just don't know yet.

Dany "peaked" as the AA contender in the first book, not the fifth one. I don't think it's quite the same thing, narratively.

I'd disagree with that, just because we first hear about the AA prophecy in the second book. At that point, Dany seemed most 'obviously' to fit the prophecy (with Stannis as the pretender). It's not until the fifth book that we're given more information that leads some to see Jon as a viable candidate. The same thing could easily happen here---the first candidates (and ostensibly the most "logical" candidates) might not be so logical as GRRM gives us more information and has more characters meet up with Dany.

Quentyn might not be the sun's son, who knows, but I'd say he's far and away the primary candidate and I see no other truly viable alternative (a Karstark, really?). Would you say that Tyrion isn't the lion in the prophecy, and Connington isn't the griffin? If you think they aren't, why not? And if you think they are, why are you sure of them but not sure of Quentyn? And if Quentyn isn't the sun's son, who would he be, according to the prophecy?

What's wrong with the Karstarks? :) GRRM kept Harrion Karstark alive, placed him in a Tarly-controlled position, and made the Karstark sigil solely a sun. Maybe he has a further role to play. Or maybe "sun's son" is someone we haven't even met yet, or someone we haven't considered yet at all. With Melisandre going on and on about how shadows are birthed from light, wouldn't a "shadow baby" be considered a "sun's son"? This prophecy could end up getting fulfilled in totally unexpected ways.

And I'd say there's no guarantee that Quentyn has to fit into any of the prophecies Dany was given. Dany was given a list of people not to trust. I'd say Dany had problems with Quentyn, not because she unwisely trusted him, but because she didn't trust him. Had she trusted Quentyn (rather than trying to send him away, leading to him becoming desperate)--had she brought him into her councils, set him and the Dornishmen to work helping train her knights, given him some indication that he wouldn't go home completely empty-handed--- then he probably wouldn't have gone for the dragons and at least some Dornish support (House Yronwood?) would still be on the table if/when she comes to Westeros. (Before someone says it, I'm not saying she should have married him. But if she'd tried to ally herself in some other way rather than simply pushing him away, well, who knows.)

And hey, why should we necessarily assume that the lion is Tyrion and the griffin is Connington? (Dany probably will, but that seems to set Dany up to 1) not take Tyrion's political advice, and lord does she need it, and 2) sets up Dany to oppose Connington, and thus, Aegon, which seems to me to be a terrible strategy, a la the Renly/Stannis conflict that only served to strengthen their mutual Lannister enemies.)

GRRM makes a point that Jon Connington is hardly the only member of the Connington family left alive. We still have Red Ronnet, his sister, and his bastard son. Any one of those could get weaved back into the story as a problem for Dany.

As to the lion, it could refer to Jaime, it could refer to Cersei, it could even refer to Myrcella (as there's a chance that Aegon might marry her to "heal the wounds between Targaryen and Baratheon", which would mean Myrcella would be "usurping" Dany's place as Queen of Westeros). Or remember this little nugget about Yurkhaz zo Yunzak: "Daenerys gone, Yurkhaz dead. In place of one old lion, a pack of jackals." And Yurkhaz's death, according to the Shavepate, is what truly destroyed Dany's peace, so Dany could not trust in the peace Yurkhaz espoused.

My point is that, yes, there are candidates that we immediately assume "must" fulfill this prophecy, but GRRM could easily take it in completely unexpected directions (and has before). It seems odd to me that we'd be given a prophecy in which the candidates for fulfilling it are plain as day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who's to say "the sun's son" refers to a Martell at all? GRRM has repeatedly associated the men of House Martell with the spear, not the sun.

Where has he done this? I know he sometimes uses the term "Dornish spears", but that's just a metonymic way of referring to Dornish soldiers. I don't believe he's ever once referred to the Martells as "spears" in the same way he's referred to Starks as "wolves" or Lannisters as "lions."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where has he done this? I know he sometimes uses the term "Dornish spears", but that's just a metonymic way of referring to Dornish soldiers. I don't believe he's ever once referred to the Martells as "spears" in the same way he's referred to Starks as "wolves" or Lannisters as "lions."

He hasn't, but he's also never referred to Martells as "suns." Usually they're all just referred to as "the fucking Dornishmen", to be fair.

I'm pointing to this, for example:

There were two seats on the dais, near twin to one another, save that one had the Martell spear inlaid in gold upon its back, whilst the other bore the blazing Rhoynish sun that had flown from the masts of Nymeria’s ships when first they came to Dorne. The captain placed the prince beneath the spear and stepped away.

The prince sat in his high seat beneath the Martell spear, his face pale with pain.

Nymeria, the female founder of the House, is associated with the sun. Mors Martell, the male founder of the House, is associated with the spear. More importantly, Prince Doran's throne is surmounted by a spear, not a sun. And GRRM wants to make sure his readers know that.

If the prophecy does refer to sigils, calling Quentyn "the sun's son" just rings untrue to me. The "speared sun", yes, but not "the sun's son". I know others disagree with me about the importance of the duality of House Martell's sigil, but I think it's crucial. The Martell's seat is Sunspear. Doran Martell seals his letters with "the sun and spear of Dorne." He swears an oath to Arianne "by sun and spear and Seven." House Martell itself derives from Nymeria and Mors, from a combination of the sun and spear, and GRRM has hit us over the head with the fact that each symbol is equally important to House Martell's general identity. Dany seizes on the sun aspect when she first meets him, but we know that the sun isn't the full embodiment of House Martell's identity and isn't the sigil derived from the male line of the House. To me, there's a superficial correlation to "sun's son", yes, but I don't think it's necessarily as strong as others believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He hasn't, but he's also never referred to Martells as "suns." I'm pointing to this, for example:

Nymeria, the female founder of the House, is associated with the sun. Mors Martell, the male founder of the House, is associated with the spear. Prince Doran's throne is surmounted by a spear, not a sun.

But the "sun" is still a symbol of the house. And as I've said before, "sun's son" has a verbal pun/lyricism that "sun-and-spear's son" doesn't. It's a play on words and it's pretty obvious, to me, why it was worded the way it was. It's word-smithing. If there was a prophecy that mentioned a falcon and seemed to refer to a member of House Arryn, would you discount it because the sigil for the Arryns has both a falcon and a moon? If there was one that mentioned a dog and people guessed that it was a Clegane, would you say, "No, no, it has to be three dogs!"? If the prophecy did say "spear's son," would you be more open to it being a Martell, even if it didn't mention the sun? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Sorry, I think you're splitting hairs here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the "sun" is still a symbol of the house. And as I've said before, "sun's son" has a verbal pun/lyricism that "sun-and-spear's son" doesn't. It's a play on words and it's pretty obvious, to me, why it was worded the way it was. It's word-smithing. If there was a prophecy that mentioned a falcon and seemed to refer to a member of House Arryn, would you discount it because the sigil for the Arryns has both a falcon and a moon? If there was one that mentioned a dog and people guessed that it was a Clegane, would you say, "No, no, it has to be three dogs!"? If the prophecy did say "spear's son," would you be more open to it being a Martell, even if it didn't mention the sun? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Sorry, I think you're splitting hairs here.

I think if GRRM wanted to say "speared sun" instead of "sun's son", he could have, and that would unambiguously have referred to a male Martell (and would have fit the 'lyricism' of the line that you consider important). I don't think you can say it has to be Quentyn just because he's the only person who met Dany in this book who is partially associated with a sun, especially when GRRM goes to such great lengths to outline how the sun alone does not define House Martell.

And if the prophecy said "spear's son," then yes, I think it would be a stronger indicator toward Quentyn than "sun's son" solely because of Doran Martell's throne, though still not as strong an indicator as "speared son". A prophecy about a dog could refer to Sandor Clegane explicitly because he's called The Hound, not just because of the composition of his family's sigil; if a prophecy was given about a single dog, then I don't think it would fit Gregor Clegane (the Mountain) at all, because he's been associated with three dogs (as the head of House Clegane), with a mountain (his nickname), but never with a single dog. As for the moon/falcon sigil of the Arryns, absolutely; if we're given a prophecy about a falcon with no mention of a moon, it's not necessarily about the Arryns at all.

I think my general point is, if we think it's the sigil that's important to this prophecy, then in my opinion, these sigils are important. These prophecies are worded very carefully, and it's not like GRRM isn't taking his time crafting these books. I just don't think we can disregard half of a sigil (especially a sigil whose halves are equally important) as unimportant just because it doesn't fit with the prophecy; I think we need to look at that and say "wait a minute, it . . . doesn't fit the prophecy!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if GRRM wanted to say "speared sun" instead of "sun's son", he could have, and that would unambiguously have referred to a male Martell (and would have fit the 'lyricism' of the line that you consider important). I don't think you can say it has to be Quentyn just because he's the only person who met Dany in this book who is partially associated with a sun, especially when GRRM goes to such great lengths to outline how the sun alone does not define House Martell.

And if the prophecy said "spear's son," then yes, I think it would be a stronger indicator toward Quentyn than "sun's son" solely because of Doran Martell's throne, though still not as strong an indicator as "speared son". A prophecy about a dog could refer to Sandor Clegane explicitly because he's called The Hound, not just because of the composition of his family's sigil; if a prophecy was given about a single dog, then I don't think it would fit Gregor Clegane (the Mountain) at all, because he's been associated with three dogs (as the head of House Clegane), with a mountain (his nickname), but never with a single dog. As for the moon/falcon sigil of the Arryns, absolutely; if we're given a prophecy about a falcon with no mention of a moon, it's not necessarily about the Arryns at all.

I think my general point is, if we think it's the sigil that's important to this prophecy, then in my opinion, these sigils are important. These prophecies are worded very carefully, and it's not like GRRM isn't taking his time crafting these books. I just don't think we can disregard half of a sigil (especially a sigil whose halves are equally important) as unimportant just because it doesn't fit with the prophecy; I think we need to look at that and say "wait a minute, it . . . doesn't fit the prophecy!"

So I ask, who do you think Quentyn represents in the prophecy? And who is the sun's son, if not him? If it's someone we haven't yet met, why would it (apparently) be the only one that we haven't? The others (griffin, lion, whatever) have already made an appearance. Why wouldn't that one have also?

ETA: I'm not buying the Karstark thing, at all. Sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I ask, who do you think Quentyn represents in the prophecy? And who is the sun's son, if not him? If it's someone we haven't yet met, why would it (apparently) be the only one that we haven't? The others (griffin, lion, whatever) have already made an appearance. Why wouldn't that one have also?

ETA: I'm not buying the Karstark thing, at all. Sorry.

Hey, Karstark's just a theory. I was trying earlier to figure out why Harrion Karstark is still alive, plot-wise, and it came from that. And why assume that we have to have met everyone named in the prophecy in this book? We still have two, possibly three books left. I don't think we should assume that the prophecy we're given in Book 5 has to be easily interpretable as of the end of Book 5.

Like I said in an earlier post, why assume Quentyn has been part of any prophecy Dany's been given? Quaithe gave her a list of people not to trust. The whole Quentyn issue became a debacle not because Dany unwisely trusted him, but because Dany didn't trust him (thus making him desperate enough to accidentally free the dragons and get himself roasted).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank youuuu. I mentioned this once before but it seems everyone only like the fake targ or Aegon being a blackfyre and i pointed out that even as a blackfyre, he's still a dragon & wouldn't be fake dragon as they say

Well, in Dunk and Egg, some people call targs "the true dragons" and other called the blackfyre the "true dragons"...

There could be something completely different. Aurane Waters has the blood of valiria but is not a dragon(he is a Velarion from Driftmark, targ's first bannermen). He disappear in AFFC with a fleet and is still missing. He was a pirate and new Essos very well. So, he could be searching for dany and could pretend to be Aegon VI in the sixth book. Since he is not a POV, we have no idea where he is now, but he could be close...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...