[ADwD Spoilers]The Mummers dragon

[Suriccaio Suriccata]

I believe he actually referred to the third head of the dragon - which may but doesn't necessarily mean a dragon rider.

There will be three heads of the dragon, like once had Aegon I. So, there should be 3 targaryens alive. Dany, Aegon VI and Jon(if you believe R+L=Jon), are my favorite trio. The mummers dragon can be a blackfyre survivor or pretense blackfyre or Aurane Waters. Also, the prophecy says "trust no one". There is nothing about war or anything like that.

Aegon VI landed on the south. That is the targaryen place, the crownlands. But, if dany musto go south, she will first go north. My theory is that in the 6th book, the Wall crumbled(someone blow the horn of winter, the small simple warhorn that Jon had found). Dany will finally comes to Westeros, but will not help Aegon(he will probably have a lot of trouble and asks for help). She will land in the north, like the Good Queen Targaryen of the past, and helps fight the Others.

Also, the book won't end all the storylines in details. Most likely, Bran will be the epilogue character, telling from a distant future everything that happened in the end of the war of the 5 kings.

[Silmarien]

This is interesting, the idea of Bran being the epilogue 10-20 years in the future.

I like it.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think you're looking too far into it, tze. Quaithe says: "soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others", meaning that they're coming to her. Not the other way around. (Apart from Griff and Aegon, who changed direction.)

I brought this up in another thread, but I think I'll mention it again here. Do we know for certain that "kraken" means Victarion? Had he left for Slaver's Bay when Quaithe appeared to Daenerys? Perhaps she's referring to Euron.

[tze]

I think you're looking too far into it, tze. Quaithe says: "soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others", meaning that they're coming to her. Not the other way around.

Even if Quaithe means they're coming to her, the only timetable Quaithe gave was that the pale mare would come first. There's no indication that Dany will necessarily meet these "people" in Meereen, or even that they were ever coming to Meereen in the first place. I think we can safely assume that Dany won't spend the rest of the series in Meereen.

(Apart from Griff and Aegon, who changed direction.)

This is part of my point. If Connington and Aegon are the griffin and the mummer's dragon, then they aren't coming to Dany at all. They were planning on going to Meereen, but those plans got scrapped. Quaithe says that, after the pale mare, the rest will come. She doesn't say they're planning on coming, or thinking about coming, she says they'll come. You can't say that Quentyn must fit into Quaithe's prophecy simply because he came to Dany in Meereen while simultaneously handwaving away two other proposed prophecy-fulfillers who we know will never come to Dany in Meereen at all.

Dany assumes the sun's son is Quentyn. Her track record at interpreting prophecies doesn't strike me as authoritative. Honestly, I'm not sure why it's assumed that this prophecy we were just given must be easily interpretable, and have been fulfilled, in the same book in which it was given. None of GRRM's other prophecies have ever been that obvious, even the ones that at first seemed obvious, so why on earth start now?

I brought this up in another thread, but I think I'll mention it again here. Do we know for certain that "kraken" means Victarion? Had he left for Slaver's Bay when Quaithe appeared to Daenerys? Perhaps she's referring to Euron.

It could technically be Euron, but his personal sigil is a red eye beneath a black crown supported by two crows. It's not a kraken.

[Black Crow]

I think its important to distinguish between a warning (per Quaithe) and a prophecy (per, for example the Ancient Books of Asshai).

A prophecy is something that's going to happen, period. A warning is something that might happen if you don't do something about it first.

[Dragonfish]

I think it's important to reconsider why Quaithe uses the term "sun's son" to begin with, rather than simple references to sigils--such as "sun-and-spear" (for Quentyn) or "sunburst" (for Karstark)--as she does with the lion, griffin, and kraken. This question is easy to answer if we assume Quentyn to be the sun's son: he is, after all, being sent to Dany by his father, and is basically there to represent his father. The son is there on behalf of the sun. In contrast, Harrion Karstark isn't really following his father anymore. That man is dead, and Harrion is now lord. So rather than being the "sun's son", he simply is the sun. There is therefore no real reason for Quaithe not to refer to him as a "sun" or "sunburst" in order to maintain the parallelism with the other sigil references. Sure, his father's death probably still weighs on him and informs his actions, and in that sense he might be the "sun's son." But then again, Tywin's death does the same for Tyrion, yet he is not referred to as the "lion's son." So with these considerations in mind, I think the best candidate for the "sun's son" is most certainly Quentyn.

[tze]

I think it's important to reconsider why Quaithe uses the term "sun's son" to begin with, rather than simple references to sigils--such as "sun-and-spear" (for Quentyn) or "sunburst" (for Karstark)--as she does with the lion, griffin, and kraken. This question is easy to answer if we assume Quentyn to be the sun's son: he is, after all, being sent to Dany by his father, and is basically there to represent his father. The son is there on behalf of the sun.

Except that Doran Martell has never been associated solely with a sun. With a spear, yes. With a speared sun, absolutely. But never solely with a sun.

[Dragonfish]

Except that Doran Martell has never been associated solely with a sun. With a spear, yes. But never with a sun.

His sigil has a sun in it. And as Apple Martini explained, it would have been far less poetic to say "the sun-and-spear's son", hence why, I think, the spear was left out of it.

Besides, Karstarks have never been associated with the sun either, at least not in the way you're describing. At times their sigil has been mentioned, sure, but never have the Karstarks been referred to metonymically as "suns" or "sunbursts." So going by your logic, Harrion Karstark can't be the "sun's son" either.

[tze]

His sigil has a sun in it. And as Apple Martini explained, it would have been far less poetic to say "the sun-and-spear's son", hence why, I think, the spear was left out of it.

Besides, Karstarks have never been associated with the sun either, at least not in the way you're describing. At times their sigil has been mentioned, sure, but never have the Karstarks been referred to metonymically as "suns" or "sunbursts." So going by your logic, Harrion Karstark can't be the "sun's son" either.

Or maybe the "sun's son" (Harrion) is not to be trusted, but "the sun's daughter" (Alys) is to be trusted.

Honestly, my point isn't that "the sun's son" must refer to Harrion Karstark. That's just a theory. My point is that Quentyn doesn't really fit as well as people assume.

"The speared sun and the mummer's dragon." Poetically, it fits.

GRRM presumably wrote out the history of the Martell family's dual sigil for a reason. Presumably he made sure to tell readers that Doran Martell is enthroned beneath a spear, not a sun, for a reason. He made sure to emphasize how the spear AND the sun, together, represent the family at large, and that neither alone is used to describe the Martells. GRRM could have made the Martell family sigil solely a sun. He could have had the female progenitor of the family associated with a spear, and the male progenitor associated with a sun. He could have had other characters call Dornishmen aligned with Doran Martell or House Martell "suns". GRRM did none of those things, and the difference in treatment between the Martell sigil and, say, the Conningtons, or the Greyjoys, or the Lannisters, is I think very striking.

The only reference I've ever found associating Doran Martell solely with the sun is the fact that his apartments are in the Tower of the Sun at Sunspear. Arianne wears a crown of suns, but I can't find any indication that Doran does as well.

GRRM tells us that the Dornish sun is supposed to be the more deadly of the two weapons, far deadlier than the spear. If we associate a "sun" with the most deadly member(s) of House Martell, how on earth do we come up with Doran? Does anyone really think Doran Martell is the deadliest man in his House?

I know people want Quaithe's words to be easily interpretable, but nothing I've read convinces me that Dany's right (when has anyone ever been right about these things??) about Quentyn being the sun's son. We still have several books to go. There is NO requirement that the candidates be apparent at this point in time.

[Dragonfish]

Or maybe the "sun's son" (Harrion) is not to be trusted, but "the sun's daughter" (Alys) is to be trusted.

Honestly, my point isn't that "the sun's son" must refer to Harrion Karstark. That's just a theory. My point is that Quentyn doesn't really fit as well as people assume.

Yes, I know, but my point is that you can't continue to argue that Doran can't be the sun because he's never associated with the sun, and then in the same breath argue that a Karstark fits, because they've also never been associated with the sun. If you were to apply your criticism equally, then you must rule out the Karstarks along with the Martells.

"The speared sun and the mummer's dragon." Poetically, it fits.

No, you're leaving out the "son" part, which is important. Quentyn isn't there for his own agenda, he's there for his father's agenda. He is representing his father. The familial relationship needs to be referenced, which your suggestion does not do.

GRRM presumably wrote out the history of the Martell family's dual sigil for a reason. Presumably he made sure to tell readers that Doran Martell is enthroned beneath a spear, not a sun, for a reason. He made sure to emphasize how the spear AND the sun, together, represent the family at large, and that neither alone is used to describe the Martells. GRRM could have made the Martell family sigil solely a sun. He could have had the female progenitor of the family associated with a spear, and the male progenitor associated with a sun. He could have had other characters call Dornishmen aligned with Doran Martell or House Martell "suns". GRRM did none of those things.

GRRM did not plan out the entire story from the beginning. He knows the endgame, he knows the major steps along the way, but the rest he makes up as he goes along. I doubt he created the Martell sigil (or even the Karstark sigil) with Quaithe's warning in mind.

GRRM tells us that the Dornish sun is supposed to be the more deadly of the two weapons, far deadlier than the spear. If we associate a "sun" with the most deadly member(s) of House Martell, how on earth do we come up with Doran? Does anyone really think Doran Martell is the deadliest man in his House?

Take that up with yourself, because you're the only one arguing that the sun must be associated with deadliest member(s) of House Martell.

I know people want Quaithe's words to be easily interpretable, but nothing I've read convinces me that Dany's right (when has anyone ever been right about these things??) about Quentyn being the sun's son. We still have several books to go. There is NO requirement that the candidates be apparent at this point in time.

First of all, I'm not basing my argument on what Dany says. I thought Quentyn was the sun's son even before Dany "realized" it, because I thought it fit well.

Second of all, you're right that all the candidates for the sun's son don't have to be apparent yet. I just think that of the candidates so far, Quentyn is by far the best one.

[tze]

Dragonfish, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Dragonfish]

Dragonfish, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Very well.

[Capon Breath]

Dany refers to Drogo as "My Sun and Stars" is there any chance that the Sun's Son is Drogos son? Dany meets back up with the Dothraki at the end of ADWD?

[Frozen Soul]

Regarding the sun and spear dilemma, it is true that a distinction between the Sun and the Spear of House Martell has been made and I believe GRRM loves to hide little details in everything he writes. IMO together they mean one thing but they may also mean something different when separated, for instance, male Martells tend to be compared with the spear, that also represents Mors, hence male Martells=Spear since the founding of the house while the Sun was Nymeria's sigil so, female Martell=Sun. We keep assuming that the sun's son is a father-son relation but it could be a mother-son thing instead.

*Please dont eat me alive for lack of references/examples, its an idea that crossed my mind while reading ADWD and I haven't had the time to re-read and make it a little bit more solid...for now its just me babbling

EDIT- I do realize that normally the sun is seen as a male symbol and the Moon as female but who knows...

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Dany refers to Drogo as "My Sun and Stars" is there any chance that the Sun's Son is Drogos son? Dany meets back up with the Dothraki at the end of ADWD?

I was just about to post this. The "Sun's son" is Rhaego, and he is the "Mummer's Dragon"

[Capon Breath]

I was just about to post this. The "Sun's son" is Rhaego, and he is the "Mummer's Dragon"

For me I didn't mean Rhaego as he is dead, I meant perhaps Drogo has a son or a bastard already (Not sure on Dothraki culture regarding bastards) and maybe Dany meets him now she is back amongst the Dothraki.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was just about to post this. The "Sun's son" is Rhaego, and he is the "Mummer's Dragon"

If sun-and-spear is enough to discount Quentyn because he's "only" referred to as the "sun's son," then sun-and-stars should be enough to discount Rhaego or any other Drogo offsprings for the same reason.

Also, I just reread a section of ADWD that mentions northern "swords and spears." So I don't think "Dornish spears" is a reference to the Martell sigil, as tze seems to think, but rather a literal description of the men-at-arms and their weapons. So saying that Quentyn has to be discounted because of the "Dornish spears" thing doesn't work.

And I still have no idea where the hell the Karstark thing is coming from. It seems ludicrous to me to discount Quentyn, a guy with an actual sun's son affiliation who actually did go to Dany, but to latch onto a sunburst of another house that, near as I can tell, has eff all to do with Dany or Essos or anything on the other side of the Narrow Sea at all.

[Silmarien]

I think its important to distinguish between a warning (per Quaithe) and a prophecy (per, for example the Ancient Books of Asshai).

A prophecy is something that's going to happen, period. A warning is something that might happen if you don't do something about it first.

I agree with this. Quaithe never phrased it as a prophecy, it was a warning. Just as MMD did not make a prophesy: it was more a curse.

So Quaithe is warning Dany about Jon Connington and "Aegon", whom she will HAVE to encounter or deal with when she gets to Westeros. Just because they didn't come to her, doesn't mean she won't meet them.

[Wouter]

This is part of my point. If Connington and Aegon are the griffin and the mummer's dragon, then they aren't coming to Dany at all. They were planning on going to Meereen, but those plans got scrapped.

"at all" is an overstatement. At the time Quaithe said this to Dany, they were actually en route to her. Which is also the likely explanation for what Quaithe said (and how she knew those people were coming, yet didn't foresee the U-turn Aegon made): she spied on those people through a glass candle, and saw them travelling to Dany. Since Aegon only later decided to change those plans and glass candles presumably only show the present, not the future, her announcement of Aegon and Connington turned out to be premature. The Sun's son and the lion also nearly didn't make it to her, Quaithe could not have foreseen that either.

If you have another interpretation, you also need to explain just who Quaithe then meant with the "griffin" and the "mummers dragon". A strange coincidence, considering Connington and Aegon fit very well for this?

[LadyMary]

Regarding the sun and spear dilemma, it is true that a distinction between the Sun and the Spear of House Martell has been made and I believe GRRM loves to hide little details in everything he writes. IMO together they mean one thing but they may also mean something different when separated, for instance, male Martells tend to be compared with the spear, that also represents Mors, hence male Martells=Spear since the founding of the house while the Sun was Nymeria's sigil so, female Martell=Sun. We keep assuming that the sun's son is a father-son relation but it could be a mother-son thing instead.

*Please dont eat me alive for lack of references/examples, its an idea that crossed my mind while reading ADWD and I haven't had the time to re-read and make it a little bit more solid...for now its just me babbling

EDIT- I do realize that normally the sun is seen as a male symbol and the Moon as female but who knows...

I suppose Aegon could fit as the Sun's son in this case. His mother was a Martell after all. But could he be both the Sun's son and the Mummer's dragon? It doesn't seem likely.

I agree with Dragonfish that Quentyn fits the description best. As for it being too obvious, I think that's a matter of opinion. It may be some Sun's son yet to be identified is waiting in the wings ... maybe Quentyn's little brother will be sent to Daenerys at some later date. I still think the Sun's son fits Quentyn best given the sequence of events.

I think it's possible the when Quaithe made her prophesy/warning, the Mummer's dragon was still on his way to find Daenerys, along with the Griffin. The pale mare has come and killed many people in and outside Mereen's city walls, but has not infected Daenerys. If the "obvious" candidates are those fortold by Quaithe, then the Lion has made his way to Mereen but not to the Queen as he was captured and enslaved. The Mummers dragon and Griffin were on their way before being persuaded to go aboard and wait for Daenerys to catch up with them in Westeros. At some point in the future they may make the journey to her again after she arrives in Westeros, thus fulfilling that part of the prophesy. The Sun's son made to the Queen but did not succeed in marrying her. The kraken and the dark flame are enroute to Mereen but don't know that the Queen is gone from the city. There are a lot of people motivated to hook up with Dany for one reason or another, but so far all of them have not succeeded.