So1ar Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Nah Quaithe says specifically mummer's dragon: "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."I think Aegon is real. If you look at it from just a gramatical standpoint then you see "mummer's" is possessive. It's not "mummer dragon" as in the dragon is a fake. It's the "mummer's dragon" as in the mummer, Varys, owns the dragon.The "sun's son" is mentioned right before it and nearly everyone agrees that is refering to Doran's son Quentyn. It has the exact same possessive form. So why would "mummer's dragon" not refer to Vary's dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Yes but the phrase 'mummer's dragon' is used to describe Dany's vision of a cloth dragon on poles that is being cheered by a crowd - it's both a theatrical fake and owned by mummers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So1ar Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 oh i don't remember that scene. it is in ADwD? I just had a problem with people thinking Aegon was a fake because of Nah Quaithe's prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 No! It's way back in ACOK, but that's when the phrase first appears. The vision comes first and the phrase is used afterwards - particularly by Quaithe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think Aegon is real. If you look at it from just a gramatical standpoint then you see "mummer's" is possessive. It's not "mummer dragon" as in the dragon is a fake. It's the "mummer's dragon" as in the mummer, Varys, owns the dragon.I don't think it's that simple. At one point in ADWD, Dany uses the term "mummer's tears" to imply that Xaro is being insincere. In that case, the metaphor very clearly implies fakeness, and does not boil down to mere possession.In contrast, the word "mummer" has never been used on its own to imply fakeness, at least not to my knowledge. That is, we've never seen any examples of terms like "mummer tears" to imply fake tears. It's always "mummer's this" or "mummer's that."Still, even if you don't accept this argument, I think Lummel's post is a good rebuttal. The only thing I would add to it is the fact that the line "slayer of lies" is associated with the vision of the mummer's dragon, which implies that there is at least something fraudulent about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hesitantreader Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I still hold that Quentyn is the sun's son because I think the pairing in the warning is significant and he did release a dragon in the city that caused great damage while in disguise, making it a mummer's dragon. I also think Quaithe can see the future based on the pairing of the kraken and dark flame, making this a prophecy and not just a list of people who at some point were headed to Meereen.Sometimes the literal interpretation turns out to be true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 The cloth dragon vision does not necessarily refer to Aegon being a false dragon. It might mean that he is a false dragon blooded savior, just as Stannis is. The wrong Azor Ahai guy. Aegon being the cloth dragon cheered by a crowd has not to refer to the fact that he is not Aegon Targaryen, but that the people who believe him to be the savior of Westeros are mistaken.Considering that ACoK also introduced Aegon Targaryen as possible savior - the vision of Rhaegar and Elia where he is described as 'He his the Prince who was promised, his is the Song of Ice and Fire' - it would actually be quite interesting if Aegon was the real deal, i.e. Rhaegar's son but not Azor Ahai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Whatever the cloth dragon signified, Aegon must still necessarily represent a lie -- one moreover, that Daenerys will slay. So really, it means little in the end whether he is legitimate or not. He will still fail. We know that from the Daenerys chapter in ACoK and from all the foreshadowing in the Tyrion chapters in ADwD.That all being said, I think we're making too much of this issue and trying too hard to find alternatives to the more simple and more likely explanation when it comes Aegon's true heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yeah, well, this lie thing is not that important anymore. We know since ACoK that Stannis is not Azor Ahai. And we did not even need the House of the Undying to realize that. But the fact that Stannis is not Azor Ahai does not unmake his claim to the Iron Throne, or make his attempts to save the Realm from the Others any less honorable or necessary.The same might be true for Aegon. The very existence of Daenerys has already slain the Stannis-is-Azor-Ahai-lie. It has also slain the Aegon-is-Azor-Ahai-lie. But Aegon might still be the rightful heir to Iron Throne, and Stannis might still end up sitting on the damned thing, whereas Daenerys dies heroically in the final battle against the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It seems silly to think the lie at issue refers to Aegon as Azor Ahai. He has never claimed the title and I doubt he'll do so now (if he even knows about it). I've no idea why you decided to conflate what the lie might represent with respect to Stannis as binding on what it might mean in Aegon's case. And as far as that is concerned, the claim that Aegon is staking out is that he is the rightful ruler to Westeros. It follows then, that lie which Daenerys will slay is this very claim. So, no; Aegon might still not be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne -- he might indeed capture it (although I find that idea very unlikely given the foreshadowing referenced above), but he will, in no case, actually be the rightful heir to it. Much as how Stannis will never really be Azor Ahai. That, in fact, is the whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yes but the phrase 'mummer's dragon' is used to describe Dany's vision of a cloth dragon on poles that is being cheered by a crowd - it's both a theatrical fake and owned by mummers.I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that while I think Aegon is 100% a fraud, I also think the cloth mummer's dragon in the vision could be a "visual pun" of sorts — a visual representation of a "mummer's dragon," but not one that necessarily has to be false. In Aegon's case, I think both meanings are true: Aegon is Varys' dragon, and he's a fake. But the way the prophecy is presented, it could be either scenario, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Indeed, and as I've posted in a spoiler, I can think of a very specific circumstance in which a real cloth mummer's dragon could be associated with Aegon :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Indeed, and as I've posted in a spoiler, I can think of a very specific circumstance in which a real cloth mummer's dragon could be associated with Aegon :cool4:Without going into details, I can't quite see how disguising yourself as a dragon with some cloth will help you take a castle. Fake dragons aren't fake cows. Cows are expected to be dotted across some fields, and therefore fake cows won't raise suspicion.Dragons on the other hand, will raise the alarm, fake or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Not if they are pretending to be mummers :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Goldenhair Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 In the Dunk & Egg stories there is mention of a mummer's dragon, does that fit in to this since GRRM says history repeats itself. Another thread makes the possibility very real that Jaime and Cersie are Targaryns and Jaime will be the AA itself. Brienne is the great, great granddaughter of Duncan and carries what might become Light Bringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 There's a dragon puppet, or a puppet dragon in THK, but I don't think its fair to say that 'mummer's dragon' is a westerosi idiom. If history is literally repeating itself them the suggested parallel is a bit disturbing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Us Roar Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Either fake dragon= AegonorVary's Dragon= Vary's+AegonThat they will have no need for another targaryen who wants the iron throne for herself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 In the Dunk & Egg stories there is mention of a mummer's dragon, does that fit in to this since GRRM says history repeats itself. Another thread makes the possibility very real that Jaime and Cersie are Targaryns and Jaime will be the AA itself. Brienne is the great, great granddaughter of Duncan and carries what might become Light Bringer.I feel like you're trying to make fetch happen here. :P I think Jaime will have a neat redemption arc that will no doubt result in his death. I do not think he's AA, at all, nor do I think that any sword, anywhere will be Lightbringer. It'd be cool to see Brienne take up a place in the Kingsguard (or, gack, Queensguard) at the end of the story, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cforrester Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It could be that Aegon is a Blackfyre or that he is Varys' Dragon. What i think it is, is that Aegon is called "Your Grace" by Jon Connington and Varys but isn't really King in his own right, because he is still being controlled in part by Jon due to his lack of experience. Whereas Dany is although she isn't truly prepared for it.I agree with a theory i read in another thread with Jaime and Brienne. That they will be like Aemon the Dragonknight and Symeon Star-Eyes reborn (crazy but Brienne's eyes are like sapphires in colour and Jaime bears a resemblance to Aemon Targaryen). If that does happen perhaps Jaime will champion Sansa's honour (coz i think she'll be queen) against a slander from Cersei, Margaery or Loras (if should survive, plus he hates her for the Joffrey's wedding fiasco) and he'll win the battle but later die of his wounds and his redemption will be complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosh Naranek Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Kraken and Dark Flame are coming together - are they not? The Griffin and possibly Mummer's Dragon are headed away from Dany. Is it a clue that they are stealing what Dany feels is her's by right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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