[ADWD Spoilers] Pleased w/ the Book

[Nihilist]

I thought it was only VERY slightly better than Feast. Not even near as good as the first three.

[Ran]

MULTITUDES like it (MULTITUDES also like TRANSFORMERS 2) . MULTITUDES don't (MULTITUDES also dislike GAME OF THRONES). MULTITUDES haven't even read it (MULTITUDES don't read at all). MULTITUDES don't know what it is (MULTITUDES!!!).

I have no idea what MULTITUDES mean, except it feels like Galactus should be saying it, and probably add "OF WORLDS HAVE FED MY HUNGER. YOU WILL NOT STOP GALACTUS, NORIN RADD."

[Triester]

I enjoyed parts of it, the Theon, Davos and Arya chapters were good. Some the surprises brought a smile to my face. Sadly, I found it disappointing as a whole. No need to go into details since several other threads cover the negatives better than I could have.

I don't see any reason for any hate whatsoever...I expect that some people just want to hate.

They'd probably hate on Shakespeare, for pete's sake.

But I find remarks like the above curious. I haven't read any negative comments that went out of their way to accuse people who enjoyed it as Martin apologists or uncritical goons. Yet I've seen several positive remarks qualified by shots at people with different opinions as "hating" for no reason as if the book was perfect. A little odd to be so defensive.

*Not picking on the above poster, just a common thing I've noticed here and at a few other boards.

[Slick Mongoose]

But I find remarks like the above curious. I haven't read any negative comments that went out of their way to accuse people who enjoyed it as Martin apologists or uncritical goons.

It's usually phrased more like:

given the cult-like fervor for Martin on this board

[The Stranger]

In fairness the last two books are clearly bridge novels trying to really fill out the world of Westeros. GRRM's dependence on folklore to fill out the story, really takes some time to tell. IMO, that is a feature not a bug. The core of the entire series is political intrigue which really requires both the source of the conflict and the current conflict to be fleshed out.

no. there is no such thing as a bridge-novel. again, this is a silly convention of a genre where individual installments of a series are meant to be bloated, and an entire series is allowed to be ten books long or more. a weak book is a weak book, and fantasy fans have simply become accustomed to such fare, to the point of rationalizing sub-par work with the term 'bridge-novel.'

further, that's the rationalization people used in 2005 for FfC. oh, it was a bridge book so the story was allowed to be a bit weak. what did it bridge to? another bridge novel, apparently, which will bridge into...?

[Ran]

What I'm most looking forward to myself is re-reading AFfC and then following it with ADwD. Jeff VanderMeer's addendum about AFfC in relation to this novel made me really interested in trying it. And, yeah, once people figure out a merged timeline and ideal chapter order, I may try that too.

[The Stranger]

Oho, I know things are getting good when Ran changes to all caps!

[Ran]

Was just riffing on Ser Lich's post. All caps make me think of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby!

[Triester]

In fairness the last two books are clearly bridge novels trying to really fill out the world of Westeros. GRRM's dependence on folklore to fill out the story, really takes some time to tell. IMO, that is a feature not a bug. The core of the entire series is political intrigue which really requires both the source of the conflict and the current conflict to be fleshed out.

But what depth or knowledge did Feast and Dance bring to the series that justified the length of the work and time it took to release it?

I'm not saying the two recent books were entirely without merit, but Game/Clash/Storm depicted an interesting world with political intrigue, supernatural elements and a fleshed out recent history; all without sacrificing a rapidly moving and dense plot as well as superb character development.

We didn't get all that with Feast/Dance.

[Ser Lich]

Was just riffing on Ser Lich's post. All caps make me think of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby!

My response was how he didn't think anyone that was a real fan could not like this book.

Lots don't

multitudes even :)

[R_Thunder]

I liked it. I just dont want to wait another 10 years to see what happens. Probably why most are mad. Noone cares too much about Brienne, Jon on the other hand...

[jurble]

I accept the book for what it is, though I wouldn't have minded if several of Dany's chapters had been fused together, another Davos chapter, a battle at Mereen, and a Ghost PoV epilogue.

[flyerhawk]

no. there is no such thing as a bridge-novel. again, this is a silly convention of a genre where individual installments of a series are meant to be bloated, and an entire series is allowed to be ten books long or more. a weak book is a weak book, and fantasy fans have simply become accustomed to such fare, to the point of rationalizing sub-par work with the term 'bridge-novel.'

further, that's the rationalization people used in 2005 for FfC. oh, it was a bridge book so the story was allowed to be a bit weak. what did it bridge to? another bridge novel, apparently, which will bridge into...?

If we accept the premise of a multi-book series then some books must be used to fill the story out rather than provide resolution.

Was there resolution in Fellowship of the Ring?

Now if you simply don't like the writing, that's fair. And, to be clear, there are flaws with the book. But there are structurally different books than the first 3. Now perhaps GRRM should have simply skipped them and gone straight to the final climax. But I personally don't think it is a bad thing that he did.

[O'san'gar's Razor]

no. there is no such thing as a bridge-novel. again, this is a silly convention of a genre where individual installments of a series are meant to be bloated, and an entire series is allowed to be ten books long or more. a weak book is a weak book, and fantasy fans have simply become accustomed to such fare, to the point of rationalizing sub-par work with the term 'bridge-novel.'

further, that's the rationalization people used in 2005 for FfC. oh, it was a bridge book so the story was allowed to be a bit weak. what did it bridge to? another bridge novel, apparently, which will bridge into...?

You may think a work of fiction should never be longer than a single volume, or a trilogy. Fine, don't read ASoIoF, Wheel of Time, etc. You may think a work of non-fiction should never be longer than a single volume. Fine, don't read Robert Caro's biography of LBJ or Edward Gibbon's history of the Roman Empire. But don't claim some kind of intellectual superiority over those that do enjoy such works. If they were without merit, they would not exist because there would be no one to sell them to.

Of course a long series will have bridge novels, just as a single volume slows down in the middle to set-up for the climax. It's not realistic to both want to read a long series covering an integrated story and not expect it to sag a bit in the middle (whether it's sagging too much is another story).

[undertow]

I definitely enjoyed it, but there are a lot of things that could have been done better. I don't see why Quentyn got a POV. Jon's character arc stagnated for a bit. The Meereen chapters were boring except for Barristan's POV. Jaime's single chapter needed some follow-up. That said, I enjoyed reading pretty much every chapter set in the North. Davos and Reek had some great chapters, and it looks like Davos will have a grand old time finding Rickon in Skagos.

[BladeDancer]

I thought it was brilliant. The voyage down the Rhoyne. Seeing Nymeria's palace? That was cool. The revelation about Aegon being alive! That was a jaw dropping moment. I know it had been theorised but that seemed somewhat of a crackpot theory. However it turns out they were right! LOL

The Davos chapters were brilliant. White Harbor was fleshed out. When Wylla Manderly was telling about the debt that her family owed the Starks, that was really touching. She had obviously been told all this by her family, so it was clear that the Manderly's really still had not forgotten their debt of honour to the Starks and their relationship was a lot stronger than one of mere loyalty to a liege lord. In the previous books, the Manderly were widely thought to be ridiculous figures, incompetent, gluttonous, obese noblemen. Now we see that this merely made them underestimated by other Houses The Chapter where Wylan Manderly. secretly met with Davos was great. Seeing the true feelings of the Manderly's about the Red Wedding made we want to cheer. Finding out that White Harbor knew about Rickon and Ramsey's treachery at Winterfell was awesome.

Jon Snow making peace with the Wildlings and integrating them at the Wall was fascinating. You can see how it is being set-up for a big showdown at the Wall with the Others. Jon's POV ended with a cliff-hanger ending but I am sure he will be fine. Mance Raydar infiltrating Winterfell was brilliant. We also got to see a taster of what Winter's in the North are really like. Non-stop snow storms!

My thoughts on Theon have really been turned around in this book. I wanted him dead after the previous books, but the Reek chapters highlighting his tortures and constant fear ensured I was cheering when he turned up to meet Asha having rescued Jeyne Poole!

Ramsey and Roose Bolton are gonna get payback in the next book. This book was setting the stage for their spectacular downfall. There will be revenge in the air. House Bolton will be destroyed!

It was great to see Arya mastering her fears and really developing her competency in so many levels. She has come so far from the scared girl on the run in Westeros. She is already capable enough to return to Westeros any time she wants. All she needs is a reason.

Yunkai, Mereen and Volantis were fleshed out a lot. Folks complained that Slaver's Bay were not developed enough but now we know pretty much everything about them. We still have the Demon Road/Valyria mystery to solve but that will probably come in the next book.

We saw how Tyrion interacted with Jorah Mormont and how these two will join up with Dany's mob.

When Barristan Selmy was arresting the King, I was really scared for him. The Chapter had him thinking about his biggest regrets in his life. He then made peace with himself and went to arrest the King. I thought he could be either being setup by ShavePate or the King himself. I also feared it would all go horribly wrong and he would end up killing the King and all his years of building up an honourable reputation would be destroyed, leaving his legacy as one of being another Kingslayer. I kept thinking how Jaime was thinking that all the worst Kingsguard were those who played the Game of Thrones. Barristan was doing that with Hizdabhr and I was really fearful for him. Thankfully he has not been betrayed - so far. With all those Brazen Beasts I was expecting betrayal at any moment. I was going paranoid for him! LOL That was a gripping chapter due to that though!

Good to see Cersei get some overdue humiliation. It was a good start. You know she is raging for payback though.

I was scared when Bran and Hodor were attacked by Wights. I thought they were going to lose at least Hodor. Thankfully they are in a safe place for the first time in months.

The Iron Bank of Bravvos helping Stannis and the Night's Watch was a great twist too. As was Alys Karstark revealing the Karstark treachery.

Kevan and Pycelle getting whacked by Varys was a brilliant reappearance moment! Varys has been gone for too long. His knowledge of all the secret passages in the Red Keep, plus his spy network and his disguises means he can cause havoc for the Lannisters! He is like the perfect terrorist to help undermine them!

Never in a million years, when beginning this series would I have envisaged such a convoluted and complex plot. It was simply a masterpiece of story-crafting. People are complaining about some storylines still unresolved. That is a good thing. We still have 2 more books to go through and so much is going to have to still happen. It is mouthwatering to anticipate.

Arya's return to Westeros. Sansa being revealed in the Vale. Battle of Winterfell. Battle of Hardholme. Sam's adventures with the Sphinx. Battle for Mereen. Dany's return to Westeros. Rickon's return from Skagos. Theon and Asha against Euron. Other's invasion. Winter properly arriving. Jaime, Cat and Brienne sitting in a tree. The Hound and the Mountain returning from the 'dead'. The return of Brynden the Blackfish and the mystery of Benjen Stark. The reveal of Jon Snow's parentage. So much still to look forward to.

:fencing:

[flyerhawk]

But what depth or knowledge did Feast and Dance bring to the series that justified the length of the work and time it took to release it?

I'm not saying the two recent books were entirely without merit, but Game/Clash/Storm depicted an interesting world with political intrigue, supernatural elements and a fleshed out recent history; all without sacrificing a rapidly moving and dense plot as well as superb character development.

We didn't get all that with Feast/Dance.

There is certainly political intrigue but certainly not to the same level as aCoK or aSoS. GRRM made a choice to fill out the world rather than continue with the Game of Thrones aspect. Maybe he shouldn't have but, again, that a is a question of style not quality.

Honestly, if GRRM comes back with a book with 3 years I don't people will really much care.

[Ser Pistus]

If we accept the premise of a multi-book series then some books must be used to fill the story out rather than provide resolution.

Of course a long series will have bridge novels, just as a single volume slows down in the middle to set-up for the climax. It's not realistic to both want to read a long series covering an integrated story and not expect it to sag a bit in the middle (whether it's sagging too much is another story).

So, in other words, A Storm of Swords was a very bad book because it is near the middle of the series, and it did not "sag", not a bit. What is worse, it even had a lot of climaxes and several resolutions as well. Terrible.

[The Stranger]

If we accept the premise of a multi-book series then some books must be used to fill the story out rather than provide resolution.

Was there resolution in Fellowship of the Ring?

Now if you simply don't like the writing, that's fair. And, to be clear, there are flaws with the book. But there are structurally different books than the first 3. Now perhaps GRRM should have simply skipped them and gone straight to the final climax. But I personally don't think it is a bad thing that he did.

by definition it would seem impossible for the first book of a series to be bridging--what was on the other side of that book to bridge from? if anything, the Picaresque nature of the first novel is a straight-up epic hero quest--on its own terms, it succeeds as a unified plot with a real ending: the Fellowship act ends when the Fellowship breaks.

LotR does, admittedly, have a couple of genuine cliffhangers: the Breaking of the Fellowship is one such, and the even more jarring "Frodo was alive, and taken by the Enemy." that said, these books were also divided substantially into Acts--especially the story of the surviving fellowship. when TT ends, we know where Aragorn's people stand, and the end of the Saruman act naturally leads into the Gondor act. Frodo and Sam have a dicier time of it, and Tolkien acknowledged this is one of the reasons he didn't like how the books were published. that said, the cliffhangers of the Mordor Quest were substantially undergirded by the tight Act structure I mentioned above. [not to mention the fact that, based purely on the Council of Elrond + world map, we more or less knew everything that would happen to Frodo--he would go to a particular volcano].

as to the 'structurally different' angle, here's the kicker: how much bridging does one story take? right now by page count bridging alone is over 30% of ASoIaF in its entirety--in terms of the author's schedule, it's been over 60% of his working time.

overall: if a story needs bridging, I'll allow for bridging MATERIAL, but a whole book devoted to it seems dubious. two out of five [even two out of seven] seems kinda feckless, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you're going to build a bridge...show us what's on the other side.

[Delta1212]

.

But I find remarks like the above curious. I haven't read any negative comments that went out of their way to accuse people who enjoyed it as Martin apologists or uncritical goons. Yet I've seen several positive remarks qualified by shots at people with different opinions as "hating" for no reason as if the book was perfect. A little odd to be so defensive.

I think the three point post on the previous page actually verges fantasyland close on doing that, but otherwise, I generally agree with the sentiment. I can live with people who like a book I dislike, or who criticize a book I like, but strawman attacks on people holding the opposite position leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Attempting to generalize the opinions and arguments of all or the majority of people in a debate about whether something is enjoyable is inherently pointless because it's an entirely subjective measure of quality and some people will enjoy the very things that turn others off.*

*This doesn't apply to Twilight as it is objectively bad.