[ADWD Spoilers] Pleased w/ the Book

[Carter209]

I liked the book, no doubt about that. I do think some of Dany's chapters could have been combined to fit another Davos or Bran chapter, but that's my biggest complaint. Overall, the story's still engrossing(especially in the North and the Stormlands, now), and after reading it I can tell the Meereenese Knot would have been a bitch to work with.

[The Stranger]

You may think a work of fiction should never be longer than a single volume, or a trilogy. Fine, don't read ASoIoF, Wheel of Time, etc. You may think a work of non-fiction should never be longer than a single volume. Fine, don't read Robert Caro's biography of LBJ or Edward Gibbon's history of the Roman Empire. But don't claim some kind of intellectual superiority over those that do enjoy such works. If they were without merit, they would not exist because there would be no one to sell them to.

Of course a long series will have bridge novels, just as a single volume slows down in the middle to set-up for the climax. It's not realistic to both want to read a long series covering an integrated story and not expect it to sag a bit in the middle (whether it's sagging too much is another story).

straw men in the first paragraph, spiced with some ad hominem. a second paragraph based on the faulty premise that such a novel structure is normal in telling a story...let alone necessary. [also, novels don't typically slow down in the middle--they adjust the pace of action to allow for characters gaining more knowledge of the overall backstory--with the exception of Bran, sorta, no one gets that second act revelation by the end of book five.]

[cteresa]

Just a small point. A lot of readers elsewhere, on amazon, goodreads, anywhere are likely not composed by a high percentage of people who waited 10 years, or 6 years for ADWD. I would say the percentage of people who waited 10 or 6 years is higher on this board, on this very thread. just saying.

[flyerhawk]

by definition it would seem impossible for the first book of a series to be bridging--what was on the other side of that book to bridge from? if anything, the Picaresque nature of the first novel is a straight-up epic hero quest--on its own terms, it succeeds as a unified plot with a real ending: the Fellowship act ends when the Fellowship breaks.

LotR does, admittedly, have a couple of genuine cliffhangers: the Breaking of the Fellowship is one such, and the even more jarring "Frodo was alive, and taken by the Enemy." that said, these books were also divided substantially into Acts--especially the story of the surviving fellowship. when TT ends, we know where Aragorn's people stand, and the end of the Saruman act naturally leads into the Gondor act. Frodo and Sam have a dicier time of it, and Tolkien acknowledged this is one of the reasons he didn't like how the books were published. that said, the cliffhangers of the Mordor Quest were substantially undergirded by the tight Act structure I mentioned above. [not to mention the fact that, based purely on the Council of Elrond + world map, we more or less knew everything that would happen to Frodo--he would go to a particular volcano].

as to the 'structurally different' angle, here's the kicker: how much bridging does one story take? right now by page count bridging alone is over 30% of ASoIaF in its entirety--in terms of the author's schedule, it's been over 60% of his working time.

overall: if a story needs bridging, I'll allow for bridging MATERIAL, but a whole book devoted to it seems dubious. two out of five [even two out of seven] seems kinda feckless, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you're going to build a bridge...show us what's on the other side.

A fair criticism. In truth I do think that GRRM engaged in a conceit here. He admits that he just started writing and writing and it wasn't until later than he realized that a lot of what he wrote didn't really further the overarching story. So rather than just trashing the superfluous stuff he essentially creates AFfC which, I completely agree, is mostly a waste of time.

IMO, about 80% of AFfC could have been discarded and replaced with events that further the story. But I do think that ADwD was well done and did fill out the story properly.

[MindLikeWarp]

Feast was better than this book, which I didn't think was possible. The insight that the Brienne chapters gave into the smallfolk of Westeros, made for a better book in comparison to Dance which, though giving insight into the world and politics of Slaver's Bay, wasn't as compelling. IMO.

[dayna]

My dad died waiting for Dance. "Did that fat guy finish the book yet?" is the last thing he said to me.

I have no problem waiting 5, 10, 15 years for the next installment..

[Datepalm]

I did wonder if my liking of the book, along with fondness for AFFC, isn't just me trying to talk myself into it and justifying anything GRRM writes, but then I recalled I don't like a lot of the popular second world epic fantasies at all (can't stand Sanderson, Bakker or Rothfuss, for example) and reminded myself that yes, I really don't like big battles or big bads or characters having overly positive trajectories all that much, and came out pretty satisfied that I really did just like the book quite a lot. :dunno:

[Datepalm]

Bakker would love this post....

:P

Woah, this is news to me! Bakker acknowledges women might be aware of their own through process?!

[stormystormborn]

I loved every word of it, even the POV's from my unfavorite characters. It's a great book in a great series. But what drove me insane was what was NOT in it. As I was reading I found myself wishing...begging Martin things like -

Oh please give me a Stark reunion of some sort, with a build up of them coming together...please George.

When we first met the stoic, honorable Starks in "Game of Thrones" we respected and rooted for them (I did anyway). Since then, they have been not only ripped apart and separated from one another, each family member is going through some serious shit without their siblings/parentthing for support. Heck, even a Jon and Catelyn reunion would suffice. Maybe he's waiting for them all to get together at once. Or perhaps they will all die and never see one another again.

That's what's great about Martin's books...he makes you think ahead, and worry and frustrate yourself to no end about what has not happened yet. Bastard. I love it.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

Ok, so I just finished the book and I thought it was amazing! are there any other fans out there who loved the book?

Yes I thoroughly enjoyed it! My only complaint is that I finished it too quickly! I liked the Tyrion chapters the best, lots happened to him. I too loved the Dany chapter with her in the pit with Drogon, it was absolutely magnificent!

The A Song of Ice and Fire series is just remarkable - I adore it!

[Datepalm]

I should certainly hope that they're aware of their own through process. Thought process is another matter entirely, and Bakker doesn't trust you XX chromosome types with that, and nor should he!!!

As evidently he shouldn't, lol. One of my better typos ever, if I do say so myself.

[cteresa]

and reminded myself that yes, I really don't like big battles or big bads or characters having overly positive trajectories all that much, and came out pretty satisfied that I really did just like the book quite a lot. :dunno:

GRRM can write. He *can* really write, and write well by any standards. I am rereading The Hedge Knight (not Lorren yet, sorry, I will get to it!) and keep being reminded and reminded of it.

(And a lot of guys writing stuff like big battles and so on, all those authors compared to GRRM all the time, IMO; well, no, usually *writing* is not that strong point).

I think GRRM´s *writing* (the story telling, the characterization, and ambiguous sentence) did NOT get worse. and it is still miles and miles better and more compelling than a ton of other fantasy.

(said that, my problems are not with the writing, but the plot structure and pacing, which IMO are independent from just the writing)

[The Stranger]

one thing I'll allow: i will do a reread once there is a plausible reading list created for a synthesized Feast-Dance reread. [shouldn't Happy Ent be on this, already?]

in fact, maybe that is my real challenge: if GRRM could put it in an authoritative combined order, I might feel like the book knows where it's going.

[Eaglewood]

I liked big chunks of it but it didn't work overall for me. Too much feet dragging and not enough of a climax to actually be a "book" and not a "bridge" in the overall storyline. Of course aSoS elevated both aGoT and aCoF for me, so I'll hold out final judgement until the last book arrives.

One more caveat: compared to about 90% of the stuff published today it is still worth it's weight in gold, warts and all.

[Datepalm]

one thing I'll allow: i will do a reread once there is a plausible reading list created for a synthesized Feast-Dance reread. [shouldn't Happy Ent be on this, already?]

in fact, maybe that is my real challenge: if GRRM could put it in an authoritative combined order, I might feel like the book knows where it's going.

I'm dying for someone to actually slice up AFFC and ADWD and stack them together, just for the visual gag of it, but I think thats probably only doable amusingly with paperbacks.

Besides, IIRC, going strictly chronologically theres stuff in ADWD that might come before the end of ASOS.

[The Stranger]

I actually PM'd Ran once to inquire if anyone was on this.

I assume Ran responded with a string of obscenities and threats, since violence is all that Ran understands.

[Caligula_K]

I liked the book, overall. There are definitely jaw dropping twists (see: Janos' death, Jon's stabbing, Kevan's death), great character moments (see Theon's entire arc, some of Tyrion's chapters) and some fantastic writing (see: Stannis' snow march). But it is also an extremely bloated book. Many Jon, Dany and Tyrion chapters in particular could have easily been condensed or combined. Quentyn Martell needed about half of what he had. Victarion didn't need anything, even if his chapters were well written.

More importantly, I am dissapointed because this book doesn't resolve anything, and with a few exceptions, because I now actually feel like we're further from the endgame than we were before. I reject the premise that series need bridge books, but if they're going to have them, at least bridge, don't make things even more complicated- to its credit, this is something that Feast did well. Similarly, if a character's arc is an extended travellogue that takes the entire book, at least let him reach his destination or a point where the arc changes (once again an area where Feast wins- though I think a character's arc should extend beyond the travellogue, at least Sam actually got to Oldtown and Brienne reached a point where she was no longer looking for Sansa, unlike Tyrion or Victarion). So, ADWD, even if it has great moments, doesn't feel like a complete book, nor does it really carry much forward momentum for the end of the series (no way in hell this is getting done in seven books). I don't feel the same rush to know what happens next as I did after reading any of the other books, including A Feast For Crows. Which is sad for me, though it will make the wait more bearable.

[Été]

I bloody loved it ^_^ At this stage in the series, the whole story is ploughing along towards the big finale, so neither AFFC nor ADWD has an identifiable beginning, middle and end the way the first three do: they're just big generous chunks of the third act put between two covers. So I was left wanting more, which is exactly how it should be at this point.

Very excited indeed for the next instalment; thing are really moving now but I have no idea quite where they'll end up.

[Howdyphillip]

Just because this book left me frustrated and disappointed in the conclusion does not mean that I was not pleased with it. I very much enjoyed reading what I did, and would gladly take another portion. I just feel like this volume does not stand on its own like the first three novels in the series. The storytelling is still outstanding, but after an 11 year wait, I just wanted more resolution at the end. I am still enthralled with the story and characters and will be (almost) patiently waiting for the next installment.

[O'san'gar's Razor]

I actually PM'd Ran once to inquire if anyone was on this.

I remember reading somewhere that the first 600 pages were catching up with AFFC, but then I was caught unawares when there was a post-AFFC Dorne chapter right around page 500.

People seem to be missing that chapter; the AFFC POV isn't for another hundred pages.