[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[Dio Forel]

I guess it was just how I was raised. I was taught that the worst think you could do is let them see you cry. Real men don't cry was beat in to me. Maybe you are alot younger than me, the last 30 years have really changed how we view crying in public for Men.

Real men don't plan an insurrection and assassinate a child LC because they disagree with his decisions either. Real men discuss things rationally and accept that there is a level of authority. We aren't dealing with real men we are dealing with mostly cowards (in some regards).

Also, it isn't as if Marsh was curled up in a ball on the floor hysterically crying and his arms flailing. He had some tears coming down his face, that isn't exactly surprising or rare. If he was on the ground shrieking like a girl crying hysterically I would agree something is suspicious in that.

[Hielo y Fuego]

I guess it was just how I was raised. I was taught that the worst think you could do is let them see you cry. Real men don't cry was beat in to me. Maybe you are alot younger than me, the last 30 years have really changed how we view crying in public for Men.

Actually, my grandfather tried to beat that thought into my head as well (Grown men don't cry, is what he used to say) over 30 yrs. ago so no, that's not it, I assure you.

It has to do with the fact that I'm a writer myself, so I see GRRM's use of the pain of the betrayal through tears that I have been mentioning all along, which makes me understand that Bowen Marsh's tears are perfectly natural for the very same reason Dio Forel and me have been stating: Marsh doesn't love Jon, but he does respect him and Jon is his commanding officer.

Killing him is not for personal reasons, it is something the conspirators feel that must be done for the good of the Watch. Hence, Marsh's tears are not for Jon per se. They are for everything that the heinous act he and his co-conspirators are about to commit represents.

[Dio Forel]

Killing him is not for personal reasons, it is something the conspirators feel that must be done for the good of the Watch. Hence, Marsh's tears are not for Jon per se. They are for everything that the heinous act he and his co-conspirators are about to commit represents.

The best comparison is real-life wars. I know people that have served in the military. While overseas fighting they have had to do some crazy things in the name of our country. These guys are the tough of the tough. These are guys that do not cry easily about anything. But these same guys have shed tears thinking of some of what they've done in the name of liberty.

Think of killing a soldier from another country. Obviously you aren't on the enemy's side and definitely have no relationship with them, but it still sad to have to kill somebody for a goal to be achieved.

[Wouter]

But to you Jon was a traitor He was a 'criminal' for deserting and was being served his punishment. Also Marsh and Jon were not friends. What about when tywin died? No tears for a father? But you expect me to belive that a man that agured and ploted agaist his LC cared for him.

Jon Snow was his sworn brother, and his commander. He also played a large role in saving Castle Black from the wildling surprise attack. He did a lot for the Watch, and a man as Bowen, even though he disagrees in so many things with Jon, must have some appreciation for that somewhere. Attacking the man was not easy; he knew Jon personally and his impression can't have been all negative.

Which is why I and Errant Bard for example, think the threats from Ramsay addressed at the Night's Watch played a big role. Stannis is supposedly dead, and Jon is the LC who allied the Watch with Stannis (de-facto this is true and while he may not have another choice and Bowen did not necessarily disagree when push comes to shove, Jon is the man who personifies this). In order to demonstrate to Ramsay that the Watch accepts him and breaks with Stannis and his men, he has to kill the symbol of the link between the Watch and Stannis - which also happens to be man who Ramsay wants dead anyway.