[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[Akhôrahil]

All that said, I agree with what other have said... it's still not enough to control Jon, plus four Night's watch brothers all at once or within seconds of each other.

Agree. Varamyr, by all accounts a very powerful warg, couldn't handle one woman. Borroq simultaneously controlling multiple people well enough to have them fight... that just beggars belief.

[Akhôrahil]

(double post due to SQL)

[chris.t.]

Just to add that a smoking wound would be consistent with warm blood hitting the below freezing temperatures. This would be a natural occurrence rather then a magical one.

That very well could be, and is in fact what I think we're supposed to believe.

However, the language used to describe Jon's smoking wound is very similar to the language used to describe Victarion's magically healed hand.

[QueenB]

I agree that something magical was up there and am very surprised that this isn't the accepted theory. When I first read that scene I simply assumed this was the case...

Very much agree with you here. I assumed sorcery was involved as I was reading it. The whole narrative felt very strange, and all the things listed by most people here (tears, stiff fingers etc) convinced me it wasn't a bunch of disgrunted people from the watch getting rid of their commander. I also don't believe marsh etc were possessed by a warg (Boroq?), it was either Mel (i'm not sure why as her POV shows she doesn't have a problem with Jon) or something we don't know yet.

I must say i'm disappointed with the way this chapter ended, not because I have to wait another 5 years to find out what happens but because there was no point for the cliffhanger. It would have been much better to finish this with some closure...

[Bowl of Brown]

It makes sense that she's desperate to have Jon bound to her, and after he rebukes her she makes this happen to fulfill her own visions.

[chris.t.]

It makes sense that she's desperate to have Jon bound to her, and after he rebukes her she makes this happen to fulfill her own visions.

I don't think it came from Mel. I think she'll be surprised when Jon stands up, takes the knife out of his back, and says, "What the eff was that all about, guys!!!" She'll then have to make significant revisions to her theory as to who AA reborn is. Probably starting with some inquiries as to the circumstances of Jon's birth.

[Envie]

Just to add that a smoking wound would be consistent with warm blood hitting the below freezing temperatures. This would be a natural occurrence rather then a magical one.

I stated this in a previous post and it bears repeating. If his wound was hot blood hitting cold air, why wouldn't he have used the word 'steaming' instead of 'smoking'? Smoking is a word used in association with something burning, with fire - not liquid (breath or blood) vapors hitting cold air, that's steam. I think the use of this word was intentional to convey the oddity and possible sorcery of the scene.

[The Human Abstract]

I stated this in a previous post and it bears repeating. If his wound was hot blood hitting cold air, why wouldn't he have used the word 'steaming' instead of 'smoking'? Smoking is a word used in association with something burning, with fire - not liquid (breath or blood) vapors hitting cold air, that's steam. I think the use of this word was intentional to convey the oddity and possible sorcery of the scene.

He probably used the word smoking to either fit the prophecy or to make us wonder whether it fits the prophecy.

The exact phrase is, "In the cold night air, the wound was smoking." This phrasing implies to me that he wants to associate the two. At least for now he wants to reader to assume the cold night air *caused* the wound to smoke.

[Lost Time]

That very well could be, and is in fact what I think we're supposed to believe.

However, the language used to describe Jon's smoking wound is very similar to the language used to describe Victarion's magically healed hand.

"Smoking" is also used to refer to Mel's blood as well.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and

smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing

her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin,

insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long

past.

I don't know. Creatively speaking, smoking is a more visceral word to use than steaming if we're talking warm blood meets cold air. But the term smoking, when tied to blood, has been used in this book for seemingly magical purposes as well.

[Greg B]

The exact phrase is, "In the cold night air, the wound was smoking." This phrasing implies to me that he wants to associate the two. At least for now he wants to reader to assume the cold night air *caused* the wound to smoke.

Yeah, I don't know why Martin shouldn't be allowed to use figurative, metaphorical language. It's not at all clear to me, if the wound were literally smoking, why it would have been important -- or even relevant -- to precede it with "In the cold night air..."

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking" is more vivid and visceral than "In the cold night air the wound was steaming." That makes Martin a better-than-most fantasy writer, but it doesn't make Jon AAR.

[samhaft]

A lot of people cite the "not me" gesture and the tears as evidence they're under control. This is ridiculous -

"not me" - Not my plan. I didn't want it to come to this. It was Bowen's idea.

Tears because Bowen didn't want it to come to this either.

I *do not* think the hit was engineered. Jon was ABOUT TO LEAVE TO GO SOUTH. They needed to take care of this as soon as possible, and during the giant distraction that was Wun Wun dismembering the guardsman, it was actually a GOOD TIME TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

Jon was definitely legitimately attacked. Whether he has an AA resurrection, a warging, a coldhands type deal, whatever, that's yet to be seen, and is what I expect, but the only foul play in the assassination was the assassination itself, nobody was under any sort of magic.

GRRM /does/ tend to be quite deliberate in his wording, so smoking may be an implication for some kind of Melissandre *intervention* but I disagree that she motivated this. And it is totally possible that it just looked to be smoking and not steaming from Jon's clearly very warped POV.

My 2 cents.

[The Human Abstract]

Why was Jon sluggish to grab his weapon, by the way? The text said that he'd hardly been cut at all by this point and poison does not act in a fraction of a second (I think).

[The Human Abstract]

ditch him once he made that announcement. On the other hand, he had given her the cold shoulder earlier.

Yes. She was conspicously absent, and I noted this. This also makes me wonder. Especially since we don't get her perpsective in the second half of the book. Does she have any inkling or did she remain in the dark truly as to the meaning of her visions?

[Brienne the Beauty]

Why was Jon sluggish to grab his weapon, by the way? The text said that he'd hardly been cut at all by this point and poison does not act in a fraction of a second (I think).

I'd speculate that another knife from an assailant that Jon did not see just got lodged in his arm or shoulder. He did not feel it because of the adrenaline or shock - all he noticed was that his muscles were not working right.

[It is not known]

My first thought after reading the OP was that Mel did it so that she could cinch the deal that he's be Azor Ahai (she certainly did the same for Stannis with his fake sword). Although, I admit I like Steel_Wind's theory too. However, that would mean that Mel has been watching Ramsey often to get the right color letter/right flavor of writing. If the letter was a fake she really got the essence of Ramsey well, which does make me wonder... Also, one other thing about her writing the letter that bothers me, is wouldn't she suspect there'd be some major fallout afterwards (I mean beyond the attack on Jon)? It seems like she's lose all of her Queens Men and they might go trying to search after Stannis' body? Also, what happens if Ramsey actually does show up? Or Stannis?

[Ygritte's fur]

Tried posting this one yesterday but something went wrong.

If we assume that we're in real time on this one as distinct from a dream sequence or something else weird its worth recalling what happened to a guy called Sir [or Ser if you prefer] Adrian Scrope who got himself stabbed and slashed no fewer than 16 times during the battle of Edgehill on 23 October 1642. The exact circumstances are unclear although it sounds like what happened to Jon in that having been slowed down by a couple of initial wounds a couple of guys pitched in to finish him off with multiple strikes.

Anyway no less than William Harvey, (of circulation of the blood fame) treated him afterwards:

"Sir Adrian Scrope was dangerously wounded, and left amongst the dead men... The local people stripped him, which helped to save his life. It was cold, clear weather, and a frost that night, which staunched his bleeding, and about midnight, or some hours after his hurt, he awaked, and was forced to draw a dead body upon him for warmth."

Now we don't know what else is going on at the time the assasination attempt is made on Jon, but if GRRM knows of the story we may not need any convoluted sorcery to explain his "you think he's dead do you?"

Nice. And I agree. Jon being not dead doesn't have to be supernatural. I don't suspect his (attempted) murder was supernatural either. I think these guys, especially Bowen, deluded themselves into thinking Jon's relationship with the wildlings would destroy the Watch.

I couldnt stand watching Jon spiral out of control in this last chapter--first with his Mother Mole rescue mission (straight outta Robb and Catelyn's book of ill-advised moves--and also annoyingly Dany-esque) and then with his ride to Winterfell. On one hand: yes, seemingly out of character for the Man Who Must Kill The Boy. But on the other: very much Eddard's son.

[Greg B]

Why was Jon sluggish to grab his weapon, by the way? The text said that he'd hardly been cut at all by this point and poison does not act in a fraction of a second (I think).

It reads like a textbook description of acute stress response (psychological shock). Muscles tighten and blood vessels constrict, particularly in the extremities, causing numbness. The dissociated way in which Jon perceives the attack also fits perfectly. And remember, this isn't Jon in battle -- this is a brutal assassination that takes him completely by surprise. His body and mind react to the sudden stress and trauma (in a 100% normal way) before a trained response has a chance to kick in.

[Brienne the Beauty]

If the letter was a fake she really got the essence of Ramsey well, which does make me wonder...

It's clear that Melisandre only gets vague hints and glimpses in her flames. She might espy a wrecked man looking haunted, but she wouldn't get the kind of details that would allow her to divine the exact nature of the twisted relationship between Ramsay and Reek, which was so evident in the letter ("Give me back my Reek.") The letter is too accurate a portrayal of Ramsay's personality to be written by her. She has never met him.

[Greg B]

I knew that the Hardhome mission was going to be a failure from the first time I heard about it, but I don't blame him for wanting to handle it. The idea of tens of thousands more wights swimming around Eastwatch and into the gift is pretty terrifying.

The Hardhome ranging (however suicidal) made sense, given Jon's priorities. Delegating that responsibility to Tormund Giantsbane (!) and instead deciding to lead a wildling host to Winterfell to make Ramsay "answer for his words" was bound to get him clipped.

[The Red Maester]

For the Borroq warged Wick and Marsh theory, I'm curious what you guys think the motive is. At this point in the story, it seems that the wildlings are actually staucher supporters of Jon than the night's watch. Also Borroq is one of Tormund's guys and Tormund almost seems like the best friend Jon has at Castle Black (I know they are the free folk, and Borroq is not bound by what his "commander" feels but it must count for something). Borroq called Jon "Brother" when they first met and I assumed this be a sign of some sort of skinchanger fraternity that we got a glimpse of in the prologue.

It seems to me Borroq has no reason to assassinate Jon, especially knowing that the next Lord Commander probably would not be as tolerant of the wildings, the devil you know sort of thing.

-- To completely jump the shark however, It did occur to me that maybe somehow Varamyr's "soul" landed in Borroq and pushed him out and that is actually Varamyr inside him (kind of the Mr. Smith inside of Cain in the Matrix). Varamyr would want Jon dead more than ever.