[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[The Human Abstract]

For the Borroq warged Wick and Marsh theory, I'm curious what you guys think the motive is. At this point in the story, it seems that the wildlings are actually staucher supporters of Jon than the night's watch. Also Borroq is one of Tormund's guys and Tormund almost seems like the best friend Jon has at Castle Black (I know they are the free folk, and Borroq is not bound by what his "commander" feels but it must count for something). Borroq called Jon "Brother" when they first met and I assumed this be a sign of some sort of skinchanger fraternity that we got a glimpse of in the prologue.

It seems to me Borroq has no reason to assassinate Jon, especially knowing that the next Lord Commander probably would not be as tolerant of the wildings, the devil you know sort of thing.

-- To completely jump the shark however, It did occur to me that maybe somehow Varamyr's "soul" landed in Borroq and pushed him out and that is actually Varamyr inside him (kind of the Mr. Smith inside of Cain in the Matrix). Varamyr would want Jon dead more than ever.

I don't buy this, though, because Wick says "for the Watch" before initiating. I don't think either warg would utter this unless they were beginning a truly devious conspiracy, and I really doubt that.

[Kalbowski]

I think Jon was clumsy simply because he's so surprised these men would try to kill him in such an open and brazen way.

That is not it. He wasn't clumsy when a wight walker tried to kill Mormont and I am sure he was pretty surprised then. GRRM wouldn't have wrote those words at this point if they didn't have some deep meaning.

[Kalbowski]

I think Wick's blade was poisoned. Jon was only "scratched" at the point that his fingers went stiff and clumsy and he couldn't draw Longclaw.

Seems they would know he practices three-on-one in the yard, and is a skilled swordsman. They wouldn't want him fighting back.

Poison makes sense.

Everyone in Westeros considers poison a Craven's weapon. And if poison was the plot, why stab him with a knife. The only reason you poison someone is because you don't want to stab them with a knife. A little redundant, don't you think. It's a good try but there is no way that this is the answer.

[samhaft]

I just thought of something. I've been watching a lot of Doctor Who lately, and recently rewatched a fantastic episode called Blink which deals with the idea of preventative measures placed into the present from long in the past. I think Bran will go back and change something that saves Jon's life.

I think this would be both unexpected and yet not awful and farfetched. Just a single whispered word which clues Mel into what's about to happen or something like that, I dunno. I'm not sure how that would play in the POV with chronology.

Thoughts?

[The Human Abstract]

It reads like a textbook description of acute stress response (psychological shock). Muscles tighten and blood vessels constrict, particularly in the extremities, causing numbness. The dissociated way in which Jon perceives the attack also fits perfectly. And remember, this isn't Jon in battle -- this is a brutal assassination that takes him completely by surprise. His body and mind react to the sudden stress and trauma (in a 100% normal way) before a trained response has a chance to kick in.

Possible... but..

1) He has the mental facility to immediately grab for his sword. So only his body is betraying him in this moment of shock... but...

2) He has already wrestled Wick down from stabbing him again. His body was not in *that* much shock, apparently.

I dunno. It's possible, but it still leaves open other theories..

[The Human Abstract]

Everyone in Westeros considers poison a Craven's weapon. And if poison was the plot, why stab him with a knife. The only reason you poison someone is because you don't want to stab them with a knife. A little redundant, don't you think. It's a good try but there is no way that this is the answer.

Lord yes.

Think of how much wiser it would be for all of them to just secretly poison Jon and elect a new commander.

[coppertongue]

3EC Killed Jon Snow by controlling NW brothers.

Okay let's start off with the details of the attack. Marsh is crying, he's having an internal struggle with his own will. Wick is in denial, he raises his hand with disbelief of his own actions. Jon can't pull out his sword. Two other knives stab him. Marsh and Wick's reaction tell me that they are not in control of themselves. Bloodraven (3EC) is known to control masses of animals. It appears the 3EC did this with the NW brothers and controlled Jon not to pull out Longclaw and kill his brothers, who were innocents. That said, this is a controlled attack. If the greenseer wanted Jon to die, he may have just killed him. If he wanted Jon to suffer near mortal wounds, it is in his power to do so. How it plays out doesn't matter... the end game is that Jon is to become Azor Ahai. It is the 3EC that makes this prophecy happen. Leaf says Brynden lingers on "for the realm". He has a thousand eyes and one, he's a helluva multi-tasker. There is none more capable of such an attack than the 3EC.

Now Melisandre's vision..

"a wooden face, corpse white" The Three-Eyed crow. "He sees me." This is awesome, this is the Three-Eyed crow really flaunting his power. Melisandre cannot hide behind her flames. More importantly the 3EC is a part of her vision, he plays a part in the prohpecy. "Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled." This is Bran. 'Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark' NW Brothers with daggers, dark could also be they are without control of their mind. "I pray for a glimpse of AA, and R'hollor shows me only Snow" Her prophecy of AA being Jon.

Jon Snow's dream is a vision given to him by the Three-Eyed Crow. The vision is not to prevent the events, but to later help Jon understand his destiny.

"Stand fast," Jon snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, aline. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze.

Jon snow has no one to stand beside him, the only family left to him, the Watch, has gone the way of his former family the Starks. He is the only person who can hold back the foes of the the realm.

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again.

Jon is slaying Wights and Others with Lightbringer.

The World dissolved into red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut.

This is a changeover, he's no longer seeing a vision of AA. He is reliving the past with a new set of eyes, he may also be seeing a blend of past and future in this next quote...

He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Rob before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

This is Jon reflecting on how his decisions now are destroying everything in his past. Their deaths however will not stray his decisions. He yells that he is Lord of Winterfell, then kills Robb, this is his rejection of his former self. Maybe even the rejection of a hidden desire to be Lord of Winterfell, when he was a kid he learned that a bastard could never be Lord and it pained him. Robb's offer, that he does not know of, and Stannis' offer mean nothing to him now, or maybe nothing later. He has more important affairs

Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

...and woke with a raven pecking at his chest

This is 3EC waking jon, in his mind and with Mormonts raven. Mormonts raven may well have been controlled by him since the we first met the annoying, nagging bird. "CORN" The first Jon chapeter opens with the moon calling out "Snow" while he is inside Ghost. Jon wakes to Mormont's raven calling his name. Jon's first chapter opens with the 3EC, Jon's last moment in the book was at the hands of this same greenseer. Bloodraven, The Last Greenseer, the dreamwalker, Brynden of the Night's Watches who becomes one with the Old Gods. EPIC.

I thought Borroq at first, but now it's obvious it was the Three-Eyed Crow. And, dare I say many dreams throughout the series are sent by him. I think this whole situation is icredible insight to the power of greenseer's a power Bran will acquire. I was a little bummed about how the Bran chapters dissappeared at the last half of the book, but this completely makes up for it. In the beginning of the book, we meet the 3EC, and it's all talk... a great conversation but still, words are wind. The tale seems to dissappear.. wrong, we see the 3EC in extraordinary interference with the realm. The Old God's work through him to completely change the course of the realm, and Jon's destiny. We've heard the prophecies... but this, this is the AA prophecy in action.

This makes Jon Snow's death/stabbing 100x better and shows how impossibly awesome GRRM is.

[The Human Abstract]

Okay let's start off with the details of the attack. Marsh is crying, he's having an internal struggle with his own will. Wick is in denial, he raises his hand with disbelief of his own actions. Jon can't pull out his sword. Two other knives stab him. Marsh and Wick's reaction tell me that they are not in control of themselves.

Interesting, but why would Wick say "For the Watch!" before cutting him? Why would they all storm out of the hall together right after his partnership with the wildlings to abandon the wall?

[Greg B]

Possible... but..

1) He has the mental facility to immediately grab for his sword. So only his body is betraying him in this moment of shock... but...

2) He has already wrestled Wick down from stabbing him again. His body was not in *that* much shock, apparently.

He doesn't immediately grab for his sword. Wick slashes at his throat, he twists away and is grazed, he puts his hand to the side of his neck and feels blood welling between his fingers, he asks, "Why?" Wick attacks again and Jon disarms him, and Wick backs off to preserve his own skin while his brothers finish the job.

NOW Jon reaches for his sword...

It can take seconds, minutes, or hours for the physiological symptoms of acute stress response to present, so I don't see anything about Jon's response to the attack that requires a supernatural or at least extraordinary explanation.

I dunno. It's possible, but it still leaves open other theories..

Certainly.

[The Human Abstract]

He doesn't immediately grab for his sword. Wick slashes at his throat, he twists away and is grazed, he puts his hand to the side of his neck and feels blood welling between his fingers, he asks, "Why?" Wick attacks again and Jon disarms him, and Wick backs off to preserve his own skin while his brothers finish the job.

NOW Jon reaches for his sword...

It can take seconds, minutes, or hours for the physiological symptoms of acute stress response to present, so I don't see anything about Jon's response to the attack that requires a supernatural or at least extraordinary explanation.

Yes, this is also my understanding of events. Perhaps I should not have said "immediately".

[top6]

Not sure why people are confused as to why Jon whispered "Ghost" at the end. That was the one thing that made me thing he actually did die, given what Robb's last word was. (Hint: It wasn't "Jeyne?" and it wasn't "Mother...") It would have been a nice symmetry.

But, yeah, I think he's pretty clearly AA reborn or will otherwise be resurrected, healed, or live on as Ghost.

[Recently]

Yes, that thing about him suddenly being clumsy and not able to take his sword out of its scabbard felt weird to me too. He whispering Ghost felt strange as well. I thought maybe they were killing Ghost and he was seeing through Ghost's eyes, but that seems unlikely.

He'll probably be Ghost throughout the next book, since when wargs are killed they survive inside their beasts. If he will come back we can only guess, since in one of Melisandre's vision she did see him appearing and disappearing, "now [..] a man, now a wolf, now a man again".

What really bothered me though was how that whole thing at the end was completely unexplained, his character, out of the blue, does a complete 180 as he calls the wildlings south to face Bolton. Very poor way to finish Jon's POV, which had been quite good.

I actually liked the 180. Basically he wasn't willing to forsake his vows for himself, his dreams and personal gain, but was willing to for the chance he could kill Ramsay and save his sister from him. My guess is theoretically if he succeeded, and survived he would have came back to the wall and submitted himself for his eventual execution.

Then again Jon is my fav char, and the closest thing to a main character in this series (screw dany) so i generally agree with most of his decisions

[Black Crow]

He doesn't immediately grab for his sword. Wick slashes at his throat, he twists away and is grazed, he puts his hand to the side of his neck and feels blood welling between his fingers, he asks, "Why?" Wick attacks again and Jon disarms him, and Wick backs off to preserve his own skin while his brothers finish the job.

NOW Jon reaches for his sword...

It can take seconds, minutes, or hours for the physiological symptoms of acute stress response to present, so I don't see anything about Jon's response to the attack that requires a supernatural or at least extraordinary explanation.

I too am absolutely in agreement with this. There may be a supernatural element somewhere that will only be revealed in the next book, but everything in the chapter can be explained in human terms. Marsh and the others may very well be emotional as everything they have dedicated their lives to is overturned by Jon and there's therefore nothing inherently unlikely in their weeping as they try to take him down for tearing it all apart. Wick has wound himself up to do the absolutely unthinkable and is terrified by the consequences as Jon turns on him. Jon's own response (or lack of one) is entirely consistent with what's happening to him, and ultimately, as I suggested above in the story of Ser Adrian Scrope there's no reason why, with some help from his friends and the cold he shouldn't survive without magical intervention.

GRRM's "Oh you think he's dead" should be taken at face value. Jon is not dead and therefore has no need to come back as unJon or anything else but a slightly bitter and twisted (no more Mr Nice Guy) human.

And no I don't think he's going to turn out to be AA either. I suspect the whole AA thing is going to turn out to be a red herring (sorry)and that in the end its going to be the Old Gods of Westeros who come out on top, not the red fire demons from the exotic east.

[samiam3]

the neck was a scratch the back and gut are the important ones.

And Knife #4 - given he was helpless - was probably a devastating blow.

As far as Jon surviving without magic - a stab wound up to the hilt in abdomen and another between shoulder blades + #4 is unlikely to be survivable if it happens in parking lot outside Mayo clinic, let alone on the Wall.

[samiam3]

I actually liked the 180. Basically he wasn't willing to forsake his vows for himself, his dreams and personal gain, but was willing to for the chance he could kill Ramsay and save his sister from him. My guess is theoretically if he succeeded, and survived he would have came back to the wall and submitted himself for his eventual execution.

Then again Jon is my fav char, and the closest thing to a main character in this series (screw dany) so i generally agree with most of his decisions

I agree with you 100%. Jon is my favorite character (as was Ned once). I think he was ultimately just pushed too far. Aemon was able to stand by but he was also not in a position where he could actually help. Jon is still a stud and he has an army and he just snapped. The idea of Arya getting flayed by a lunatic was just too much for him. I bought it 100% and I disagree wholeheartedly with those who think his character "degenerated".

[nategator]

As far as the plausibility of poison on the knife and whether it would act quickly enough...

Keep in mind that this is a steward conspiracy/coup. The people who, you know, prepare and serve the food.

It wouldn't be hard for them to put something in Jon's food that would slow him down and then plan an attack. They probably knew it would kick in soon so decided to take the opportunity with the giant to attack Jon in the yard.

[Guest]

I too am absolutely in agreement with this. There may be a supernatural element somewhere that will only be revealed in the next book, but everything in the chapter can be explained in human terms. Marsh and the others may very well be emotional as everything they have dedicated their lives to is overturned by Jon and there's therefore nothing inherently unlikely in their weeping as they try to take him down for tearing it all apart. Wick has wound himself up to do the absolutely unthinkable and is terrified by the consequences as Jon turns on him. Jon's own response (or lack of one) is entirely consistent with what's happening to him, and ultimately, as I suggested above in the story of Ser Adrian Scrope there's no reason why, with some help from his friends and the cold he shouldn't survive without magical intervention.

GRRM's "Oh you think he's dead" should be taken at face value. Jon is not dead and therefore has no need to come back as unJon or anything else but a slightly bitter and twisted (no more Mr Nice Guy) human.

And no I don't think he's going to turn out to be AA either. I suspect the whole AA thing is going to turn out to be a red herring (sorry)and that in the end its going to be the Old Gods of Westeros who come out on top, not the red fire demons from the exotic east.

:agree:

I just hope he's got some friends around him that can help him out. I still think he'll be a hero--just a disenchanted, everyday hero among many who will help fight the Others without supernatural help. Also, it never made sense that the Old Gods would just roll over for R'hllor. They gave the wolves to the Starks; that's supposed to mean something.

[The Human Abstract]

As far as the plausibility of poison on the knife and whether it would act quickly enough...

Keep in mind that this is a steward conspiracy/coup. The people who, you know, prepare and serve the food.

It wouldn't be hard for them to put something in Jon's food that would slow him down and then plan an attack. They probably knew it would kick in soon so decided to take the opportunity with the giant to attack Jon in the yard.

Why didn't they just put poison in the food? It would've been 10X smarter. Then they just could've elected a new commander.

[Maester Luwin]

There is no way Jon is dead.

[Greg B]

The idea of Arya getting flayed by a lunatic was just too much for him.

Yeah, but if anything in the letter is true, it's that Ramsay does not have Arya! And he doesn't say, "I'm going to get my sister," he says, "This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words..."

I like Jon, and I'm even on board with his decision to deceive the Night's Watch and send Mance on a covert mission to steal Ramsay's bride. I mean, it's rational -- Ramsay has my sister, this is how I can rescue her. But two things don't make sense:

1) Why Jon just announced this scheme to the assembled crows as if it were nothing, and apparently wasn't expecting any dire consequences.

2) Why Jon then decided to turn the Hardhome ranging over to Tormund and lead a wildling host to Winterfell to make Ramsay eat his words.

I'm hopeful when the two-hour planning session is revealed, it will clarify these actions. For now, it just looks like Jon lost his mind.