[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Tyrion 2 - Spoilers for ADWD

[Mezeh]

I don't think it's much of an argument. There must be plenty of non-Targaryens who've heard the stories of Aegon's conquest and dreamed of experiencing the thrill of dragonflight. Cersei drew a picture of herself and Rhaegar flying on a dragon, that doesn't mean we'll discover she's Aerys's daughter. When has Tyrion dreamed of dragons? When he was a child and saw them as a way to rise above his mistreatment by his father and sister, and again now that he's heard that they actually exist and is on his way to meet Dany. There's also far more evidence of R+L=J, yet Jon has never dreamed of dragons.

This could be but so far we don’t know besides Tyrion who is not Targ and has dragon’s dreams. Besides I didn’t said that this is a strong argument, only the best.

And Sersei dreamed mostly about Rhaegar, not dragons.

About Jon even if the R+L=J theory is right he has a mixed heritage and could be that in the North his Stark blood influence him stronger.

[Jon Targaryen]

Jon T.'s interpretation isn't convincing either. Haldon starts about the threat posed by the Golden Company, and then Illyrio says the dragon has three heads, etc. By Jon's argument, Illyrio is saying something to the effect of, "Don't worry, we've got a head of the dragon under our control." But that doesn't follow as a response to what Haldon is saying. The threat posed by the Golden Company wouldn't necessarily change just because they're planning on announcing that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen.

It is mitigated if the Golden Company is planning to put forth their leader, a descendant of Aegor or Daemon, as a dragon head. Better a nephew than some long-lost, distant cousin.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think Jon dreamed of dragons too, remember the conversation Tyrion had with Jon in AGOT?

"When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" The boy said suspciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down ove the world when he's seated on a dragon's back". I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire..."

....

"Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said. Horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow...

...

As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

I think that passage was clearly intended to show not only that Tyrion dreamt of dragons, but that Jon did as well.

[Mezeh]

It is mitigated if the Golden Company is planning to put forth their leader, a descendant of Aegor or Daemon, as a dragon head. Better a nephew than some long-lost, distant cousin.

If GC has such a plan then Grif really have reasons to hurry. But why Illirio disagree?

I think Jon dreamed of dragons too, remember the conversation Tyrion had with Jon in AGOT?

"When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" The boy said suspciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down ove the world when he's seated on a dragon's back". I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire..."

....

"Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said. Horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow...

...

As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

I think that passage was clearly intended to show not only that Tyrion dreamt of dragons, but that Jon did as well.

Good point. Yes some will disagree with you but it seems that Jon also sometimes has dragon dreams otherwise there wasn’t ay reason for him to be terrified.

Anyway there is a clear hint that Tyrion and Jon are going to meet again.

[Miryana Storm]

"When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" The boy said suspciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down ove the world when he's seated on a dragon's back". I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire..."

....

"Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said. Horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow...

...

As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at Jon Snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames.

Tyrion Lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

I think that passage was clearly intended to show not only that Tyrion dreamt of dragons, but that Jon did as well.

I disagree. The parts you didn't quote are very important:

"I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was starting at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father... he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch..."

Jon was terrified because Tyrion thought he could think like that of his family and because there must indeed have been times when it did hurt to know that he wasn't a Stark (like when he and Robb used to play at being different heroes but Robb said Jon couldn't play at being the Lord of Winterfell because his mother had said Jon could never be the Lord). Jon doesn't mention dreaming about dragons and Tyrion doesn't ask if he's ever done such a thing. Tyrion makes a different connection between them: wishing death on relatives who treat them as dwarf/bastard. At the end Jon is thoughtful because he's faced a hard truth just as Tyrion had: the Night's Watch isn't noble and there are no more dragons (it'll be a couple of months before Dany's eggs hatch and years before Tyrion has a chance of meeting them).

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I didn't quote the other part becaus they clearly refer to the other part of the discussion, which is wishing ill on family members who may have treated him badly.

But if you don't think the parts I refered to have something to do with Jon wishing he had dragons, then really it's just you not wanting to see it.

Of course to me having such dreams doesn't really mean anything, I don't think Tyrion is going to be a dragonrider, his dreams notwistanding. I think probably every young boy in Westeros at some point or another wished they had a dragon. Why should Jon be different? If Jon never in his childhood ever wished for a dragon, that would make him the exception.

[Miryana Storm]

I didn't quote the other part becaus they clearly refer to the other part of the discussion, which is wishing ill on family members who may have treated him badly.

Jon looks horrified after Tyrion tells him of wishing to burn his father/sister, not when he mentions dragons. Tyrion sees the look and considers it unlikely that a bastard has never felt moments of displeasure with those of his blood. Jon then denies having similar dreams of vengeance for mistreatment. The only way to make it look like the talk refers to dreaming about dragons is to cut out the context of the remarks. Tyrion certainly thinks they're talking of dreams referring to the family: that's why he mocks Jon's situation with remarks about Cat and Robb. What reason does he have to accuse Jon of dreaming of dragons and what reason would Jon have to feel terrified of/deny something that's probably very common in Westeros?

But if you don't think the parts I refered to have something to do with Jon wishing he had dragons, then really it's just you not wanting to see it.

Hypothetical scenario: Cat mentions growing up with Littlefinger. She then talks of life with Ned at Winterfell. She says "He was always thoughtful" - no name used, just the pronoun. Now, by cutting out the part referring to Ned ("the other part of the discussion") it's possible to quote this and claim that Cat said that Littlefinger was always thoughtful. It doesn't make much sense, though. If she was referring to something that had been mentioned previously and left behind (Littlefinger/dragons), she would have to make clear that the reference was not to what was being discussed at the moment (Ned/family).

And no, I don't think the parts you quoted referred to Jon wishing he had dragons - they were out of context and in this case context determines meaning. If an argument depends on evidence that falls apart when the complete passage is quoted, I don't think it's a case of me "really just not wanting to see it."

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The evidence does not fall apart, if you're too close minded to realize that that passage had more than one meaning, (Wow, GRRM writing passages with double meaning! Imagine that! It can't be!!!), then there is nothing I can do for you.

I didn't quote the other part because they contribute to the other underlying theme of the conversation, a part that wasn't relevant to the current discussion and I did't feel like typing it out. In no way does including them remove the inferences about Jon and dragons in the discussion.

Why would Jon think Tyrion was "making fun of him" when Tyrion says

"when I was a boy your age I dreamt of having a dragon of my own?"

And furthermore, why is it such a surprise that a boy like Jon would like to have a dragon? I bet you Bran does too, and probably Robb did as a boy, EVERY BOY (and probably many girls too) probably wished for a dragon. Like I said it would only make them strange if the thought never crossed their minds. I don't see why the need for insisting that "NO JON NEVER WANTED DRAGONS."

[Mezeh]

Let me try to summarize it.

Tyrion clearly has dragon dreams and while it seems that most (if not all) of the Targs had it he is the only non Targ who we know for sure.

We don’t know anything about how many people in Westeros dream about dragons and how often.

The fact that Tyrion has dragon dreams is suspicious but proves nothing.

Tywin in his conversation with Tyrion expressed regret that he couldn’t prove that Tyrion is not his son. This means that no such a prove exist or at least known to the present point. IMXO if Tyrion really has some dragon blood in him it could be proved only by some magic.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

There is a difference between dream of having dragons and an acutal "magical dragon dream". There former is probably very common and the latter restricted to Targs. But we have no way of knowing which of the 2 types Tyrion, or Jon, or any one else had, except for Dany because we saw her dreams. I would say absent conclusive evidence of the dreams being the magical type, we have to assume they were not. Hence I interpret both Tyrion and Jon's dreams as simply those common to all young boys.

[Miryana Storm]

The evidence does not fall apart, if you're too close minded to realize that that passage had more than one meaning, (Wow, GRRM writing passages with double meaning! Imagine that! It can't be!!!), then there is nothing I can do for you.

Do you have to be insulting?

I didn't quote the other part because they contribute to the other underlying theme of the conversation, a part that wasn't relevant to the current discussion and I did't feel like typing it out. In no way does including them remove the inferences about Jon and dragons in the discussion.

Does anyone else have an opinion to offer?

"Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Do people think this refers to Jon dreaming of dragons like Tyrion or to Tyrion claiming Jon must also have had not-that-noble thoughts about his family?

This is such a frustratingly small thing to be arguing over, but I guess I'm not letting go of it yet, especially since my explanation of my point of view has simply been dismissed as the product of an inferior mind incapable of comprehending GRRM's text.

And furthermore, why is it such a surprise that a boy like Jon would like to have a dragon? I bet you Bran does too, and probably Robb did as a boy, EVERY BOY (and probably many girls too) probably wished for a dragon. Like I said it would only make them strange if the thought never crossed their minds. I don't see why the need for insisting that "NO JON NEVER WANTED DRAGONS."

Earlier I posted: "There must be plenty of non-Targaryens who've heard the stories of Aegon's conquest and dreamed of experiencing the thrill of dragonflight." Where's the surprise in that statement? Also, when Tyrion thinking of dragons=Targ family trait of dragon's dreams was mentioned, I said: "There's also far more evidence of R+L=J, yet Jon has never dreamed of dragons." Let me clarify my meaning there: There's also far more evidence of R+L=J, yet Jon has never dreamed of dragons in the way that Targaryens have: visions of the future, etc. Where did I insist that Jon never wanted a dragon as a boy? I said that the AGOT scene with Tyrion was not proof that he had had Targ dreams. Ignoring the claims about this AGOT scene, where are there actual references to Jon wanting a dragon?

[Sea Priest]

I tend to agree with you Miryana except for those two phrases:

"When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" The boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

It could mean that he had the dragon dream also. That could explain why he feels a bit threaten by Tyrion remark.

As for the rest of the remark that "The Scabbard Of the Morning" make..... I think that it only refer to dragon dream the way he organize the phrases. In the book it refers to wonting to do harm to family member.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I would agree with Miryana since I might have mistaken her point, I think we have no evidence that Tyrion has ever had a dragon dream, and we have no evidence that Jon has ever had one either, nor do we have evidence that they didn't, and there fore to use "dragon dreams" to prove or disprove Jon or Tyrions heritage as Targs is a futile effort.

I do not believe Tyrion is a Targ, I think GRRM went out of his way to discourge and further specualtion on that topic, unfortunately for some reader they want to believe it so bad for whatever reason, probably because they want Tyrion to be a dragonrider. But since GRRM has said that not all dragonriders need necessarily be Targs, even that doesn't seem to explain all of it.

[Ealasaid]

Well, GRRM is having a good time with us - we're speculating on who could have Targ blood, Tyrion's true father, whether one must have Targ blood in order to be a dragon rider, etc, etc.

I have to confess, that I never thought about Tryrion being anything but a Lannister. Especially when the aunt tells Jaime that Tyrion is more Tywin's son than he. But that could be a well-placed red herring drug across the page.

[Mezeh]

Well, GRRM is having a good time with us - we're speculating on who could have Targ blood, Tyrion's true father, whether one must have Targ blood in order to be a dragon rider, etc, etc.

I have to confess, that I never thought about Tryrion being anything but a Lannister. Especially when the aunt tells Jaime that Tyrion is more Tywin's son than he. But that could be a well-placed red herring drug across the page.

Tyrion is surely Lannister after all no one doubt about his mother. He is surely more Tywin’s son them Jaime since Tyrion is a skilled statesman like Tywin and Jaime is only adequate field commander and no more. Nothing to do with blood thought. The rest are speculations.

Martin makes his characters to see things not as they are. In the beginning Tyrion said to Jon that Jon is a bastard while Tyrion is a true born son but a bastards in eyes of his father anyway. It would be a nice plot turn in it would turn out that Jon is a legitimate and Tyrion is not and both are related to each other. Still this plot turn is not exactly necessary so everything could be. I hope we will find some answers in the next book.

[Ealasaid]

In the beginning Tyrion said to Jon that Jon is a bastard while Tyrion is a true born son but a bastards in eyes of his father anyway. It would be a nice plot turn in it would turn out that Jon is a legitimate and Tyrion is not and both are related to each other. Still this plot turn is not exactly necessary so everything could be. I hope we will find some answers in the next book.

That would be an interesting plot twist....

And two heads of the dragon,perhaps

[Lion]

Please can somebody tell me where can i get Tyrions chapter ... i have only Daenerys one chapter !

Thx a lot !!

Ne brini ortak,dobar ti je Engleski!Javi mi se kada se konektujes!

[Jon Rivers]

Ok now here is an interesting one. Why didn't Valyria ever try to conquer Westeros?

Perhaps it was simply imprudent to conquer Westeros. Launching a full scal war and invasion against a heavily populated continent so far away would be a nightmare simply from a logistics viewpoint.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Perhaps it was simply imprudent to conquer Westeros. Launching a full scal war and invasion against a heavily populated continent so far away would be a nightmare simply from a logistics viewpoint.

I imagine that it was for a similar reason as to why the Romans never conquered further into Britain than Hadrian's wall . By the time thier empire had grown to that extent, they were more increasingly forced to control border incursions by the Huns, Visigoths, Ostragoths, etc; leaving them without the resources and desire to take on the rest of the Saxons. Also as Rome became a bigger plum more people wanted a taste. By the time the Romans were in England, so many chiefs were running around giving orders that there were not enough indians to do what was necessary. Rome was able to steadily expand under a concentrated ruling body, be that the republican senate or the caesars. But near the end there were so many divergent factions (i.e. the two emporers, the clergy, local governers, etc.) that nothing useful could get done. By the time that Rome had ventured into England, it had crushed itself beneath its own weight like a beached whale.

It is known (Irri, Jiqui) that Valeria did hold Dragonstone. Like Hadrian's Wall, this was as far as they had ventured into Westeros. It seems to me that if the doom had not happened that it was likely have been conquered eventually. The Targaryens were just another noble Valyrian house, but it was they who held Dragonstone. Perhaps thier conquest of Westeros was a often shelved plan of the Valyrian powers-that-be that they (the Targs) had fought against the other Valyrian factions to have put into action. Due to differences in internal politics the Targaryens never got the go-ahead to move forward with this. It wasn't until the DOOM, and the subsequent demise of thier imperial overlords, that the Targaryens said, "To hell with it, we always planned on doing it all along and now there is noone to stop us or share power with."

Could "Griff" be ser Jorah ? We have no physical depiction of him, but I think it is reasonable to suppose so.

What about the Dornish prince with Lord Yronwood. Might this be them? Think, we know Doran Martell had betrothed Arianne to Viserys somehow. But we also know that Viserys had no resources of his own save those provided by Magister Illyrio. So it is likely that it was Illyrio, not Viserys, who had brokered the deal, possibly even without Viserys knowledge or consent. Viserys was within Illyrio's power though he was too much of a fool to realize it, just as he was too much of a fool to realize when he was subordinate to Daenarys once she married Drogo. Besides if Viserys knew that he was betrothed to anyone it never showed. I think he would have preferred to marry Daenarys , that is if he had the choice.

Getting back to the subject of Yronwood, now we know also that Illyrio's main contact in Westeros was Varys, so it is likely that Doran used this network to communicate with Illyrio, thinking he was communicating directly with Viserys. So Yronwood and the young prince were sent to Illyrio to make thier way to Daenarys with a new proposal. And a proposal that would have to be communicated directly to her since she is definitely no longer in Illyrio's power. Remember when Illyrio sent Groleo and his ships to collect her? That is likely when Doran's emmisary had arrived. and it is also probable that Illyrio would have found some polite and flowery way of letting Dany know that this marriage was for her own good. Imagine what might have happened if instead of following Jorah's advice and going to Slaver's Bay, she had just gone to Pentos instead. Would she have found a Dornish suitor waiting for her? Did Jorah know this was possible? Could this be why he did not want her to deliver herself back to Illyrio once again a supplicant :bow: , dependant on his good favor?

[Ealasaid]

Perhaps it was simply imprudent to conquer Westeros. Launching a full scal war and invasion against a heavily populated continent so far away would be a nightmare simply from a logistics viewpoint.

They did get as far as Dragonstone - that was the Westernmost outpost, and the stone is worked in Valyarian ways lost to us, according to Cressan. I wonder if when they arrived there, the doom occurred.