[ADwD Spoilers] Varys

[Auska]

Boldasyouplease,

He means 'the children' when he says 'the children'. The innocents who suffer the most 'when you high lords play your game of thrones'. He says as much to Ned way back in AGoT. It was also rather evident that Varys really cares about innocent victims. He cares about Gendry, and Rhaenys, and Barra. He even seemed to care about Edric, being the guy in charge of the King's bastards, and the one who sent the boy all his gifts...

It seems unlikely he means all children, since he's getting tons of them killed, orphaned, raped &c. He's talking about some specific kids.

[Bastard of Varys]

But Varys hates magic, so I'd doubt he'd keep skinchangers with him.

Yes, but the smart play is to use magic against magic; let all forms thereof duke it out; and then just deal with whatever magic still remains. I think Varys is a smart dude.

[Pipsmom]

It's funny you mention this, because Arya also warged into a cat when she was 'blind' to spy on the Kindly Man.

But Varys hates magic, so I'd doubt he'd keep skinchangers with him.

Varys hates magic, as in sorcery, but warging seems to be a natural ability, inherited, and not technically "magic".

[Patrick Tully]

I find it interesting how many people take Varys stories and claimed motivations as legitimate. The "Varys hates magic" thing comes from his story of being castrated when he was a young boy, but his voice gets deeper during his goodbye chat to Kevan. I'm not so sure "the eunuch" isn't just another role.

[Beagle_alarm_clock]

Varys, Sandor and Tyrion are, in great part, so interesting to so many because they are complicated. Much of this complication stems from their intellectual, not inter-personal, honesty. They see the complete hypocrisy of the dominant cultural code of the realm. Varys more than the other two because he has more access, more vectors of information. Varys is into everything. He knows more than any other single person. In light of his history, which I believe was reliably narrated that context makes his actions very consistent. He is a political realist and quite ruthless, if not utterly so. Some other readers get hung up on "nobility" or "honor" and Varys disdains those not just because they are essentially a lie used to justify power for almost all in power, but because even for the few elites who do exercise those values they often follow those principles to the great detriment and suffering of others. They usurp all good intentions in favor of the self-serving, almost narcissistic love of their precious honor. Sure, innocents might suffer but they kept their honor. These are abstracts that Varys doesn't care about, with good reason. He is concerned with practical reality. Don't mistake me in that I argue that he is a hero or even necessarily a good man, though he is likely a righteous man. I don't find him evil or a villain, though, not even an unintentional villain. I suspect he could have managed an Aerys to Rhaegar switch but that Rhaegar went and kinked his play by falling for Lyanna and sparking a war with the wrong people wanting to kill the wrong people. Then he developed other plans, that fell through, then others. Joffrey most recently screwed the game when he had to go off script and kill Ned. No plan is unchallenged when it meets enemy action and in a game where Varys is playing against so many opponents, especially when they don't know they are playing him, the game and their moves become much more unpredictable. i do believe he is sincere in wanting to serve the realm, only he means small folk and children when he says realm. He has no love or concern for anyone with a banner. They can take care of themselves and usually do. Following this line, I don't think he cares especially that it is a Targaryen that rules. He has chosen them because they are a player outside of much of the rest of the game. They are simply more useful and for a longer time than other candidates. They are a puzzle piece, a cog, a lever, nothing more. We saw a like reasoning with Jon at the wall. Would Ned have let the wildlings through? I think unlikely. Not suitable to his honor. An amnesty? No. Jon is like Varys, but without the skill set from experience to insulate himself from direct violence or hate. He is a realist. He doesn't grant the NW some great affection bound by tradition and history and noble words. He knows they are a degradation of previous ideals. He knows they are a hypocrisy. Their words now serve to make them weak and unable to fulfill their primary mission. What will he tell the rest of Westeros when they are overrun by Others and undead monstrosities? Sorry you're being slaughtered, but damn it, I kept those wildlings out of the realm! So, ultimately, he chooses the mission over the tradition... and pays for it, or not... but this posting is not meant to address any of that.

In the end, probably, the schemes of Varys will fail. One thing this series has wonderfully embraced is the fallibility of those with power and knowledge and ability. There are no true, perfect saviors, at least so far, and I hope there won't be.

On an unrelated note, this is my first posting and I thank those responsible for the bandwidth to post my own scribblings and for the access I've had to the many interesting and entertaining postings of fellow readers.

[StarkBlack21]

I think Varys for sure believes that he is acting in the greater good of the realm. He is dreaming of putting together an unbroken dynasty of Targaryens that will rule unchallenged, thus ending wars and poverty and famine in the future. We are looking at it within the context of the present, or even the near future, but for Varys if thousands die today or tomorrow, that's a small price to pay for a future free of strife with a Targaryen ruler. His scope is much bigger than the next 50 years. This is why he kills Kevan, even though the chaos that will ensue might seem like it's going against his proclaimed aims of "for the realm."

I'm not saying that his actions are in actuality contributing to the greater good of the realm, since that's obviously up for debate. I think he truly believes he is though.

Another thought is why do we take anything about Varys at face value? We know he is a master of disguise, having seen him transform into apparently a woman as well as a grizzled footman at will at different points during the series. It would make sense that he has woven lies about himself, such as being born in Lys or even being a eunuch. After all, people seem to naturally despise and perhaps underestimate him for being a eunuch. This could be what he wants; there is no proof at all in the series that he actually is a eunuch. I don't know if he is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre or anything, but certainly those theories cannot be ruled out.

This is exactly what I've been saying. Why don't people realize, WE HAVE NO PROOF HE IS A EUNUCH! Everything we know about Varys comes from himself. We have no clue what his real history is. NO ONE WOULD CHECK IF HE IS A EUNUCH. He says he is a Eunuch, because people will view him as weak. he's NOT an UNSULLY EUNUCH. He looks like a weak, scared man, who lives off lies to sell.

Martin has pointed out more then once, Varys grew up with an ACTING GROUP. I think this plays a lot in who he is and how to get away with his many deceptions. I think Varys is playing a much bigger game, and his whole persona is a ruse.And someone said why lie about being aEUNUCH, because who would check? In this Medieval/Fantasy realm, one of the worst things you could beif a man, is a man with NO BALLS. So they would not think u are lying, and once again, who would check if he has balls? Plus his voice growing DEEPER when he was talking to KEVAN, that was a subtle HINT by Martin, basically saying Varys is not who we think he is. He was out of CHARACTER, when his voice deepened.

Martin is notorious for laying subtle clues at our doorstep. The VOICE was a clue. And think for all the backstory scenarios Martin could've given Varys, he decides on an ACTING TROUPE he was with? Hmmmm.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Since Illyrio and Varys are supporting this Aegon Targ restoration, why did they bother sponsoring Vasyries in the first book? I don't know if Illyrio could have been aware of Aegon until after Vasyries was killed? Or they knew he would fail as they are blackfyre sympathizers. The young griff storyline seems like it was unplanned and just kinda sprung up, hence the lapses in logic of some of the characters ?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The young griff storyline seems like it was unplanned and just kinda sprung up, hence the lapses in logic of some of the characters ?

The Young Griff story line was planned at least as far back as ACOK--where he's alluded to in the House of the Undying prophecies--and arguably from the beginning. The problem with believing that Varys was trying to put Viserys and Daenerys on the throne is that he wasn't trying very hard, and plainly didn't give a shit how effective either would be as monarch. That was clear from the earliest Daenerys chapters, where she reflects on how they were stuck fleeing across the Free Cities when Illyrio could have taken them in at any time.

Of course, knowing that Varys pinned most of his hopes on Aegon explains only part of the story. Obviously Varys had some plan in mind for Viserys and Daenerys, but it kept changing:

"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up in Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruin as well."

...and there's still the question of what Daenerys, the pliable child queen, was the one left with the dragon eggs. But that just means that Varys has more secrets left to tell us, not that he was necessarily acting illogically.

[Black Crow]

There is another way of looking at this as articulated by Tristan Rivers above. Varys has the spy network to gather and manipulate information while Illyrio has the money to fund cunning plans, but that's not always the same thing as being able to work out and implement said cunning plans or even cobble up the right cunning plans. Serving the realm isn't always the same as running (or winning) the realm.

[The Hill That Rides]

At the end of the series Varys will turn to whomever is the monarch and say "Okay, Congrats. I'm going to go home and sleep with my wife."

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

There is another way of looking at this as articulated by Tristan Rivers above. Varys has the spy network to gather and manipulate information while Illyrio has the money to fund cunning plans, but that's not always the same thing as being able to work out and implement said cunning plans or even cobble up the right cunning plans.

True, and I think we've seen Varys change tactics before. His actions in AGOT suggest to me that he was playing along with Littlefinger until LF talked Joffrey into executed Ned Stark, at which point he starting moving against Littlefinger. He also decided--perhaps to secure the Dothraki alliance for Aegon?--to take in Viserys and Daenerys after 15 years of neglect.

But I think there's some kind of constant goal in mind that guides his actions, and what that is remains a mystery.

[pef89]

Varys' voice deepening along with the fact that he shaves his head could prove him to be faking his eunoch persona. What if Varys' natural hair color is silver/white and he is hiding that by being bald? He could be a secret Targ/Blackfyre too.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I dont know, this may be crackpot but I suspect that Varys might be a faceless man. I dont really have any proof other than a hunch. Does anyone think that the pockmarked freckled girl resembles one of Arya's alias in Braavos.

[Clueless Northman]

And think for all the backstory scenarios Martin could've given Varys, he decides on an ACTING TROUPE he was with? Hmmmm.

Indeed. It's probably been mentioned many times, but it's hard to be more blatant about the fact that Aegon is the Mummer's dragon.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think Varys is a Faceless Man. We've seen him in effective disguises before, but even then Shae could see straight through the disguise and recognize Varys.

[The King of Worms]

Varys is a shaved-head blackfire or dragon-bastard forced to live as a "mouse" or a "weasel" much like Arya. His ability as a mummer was his greatest tool of survival. If he was just another refugee kid who became a mummer from across the narrow sea somewhere, why would he care about danaerys, viserys, aegon, or even the realm of westeros itself? Why would Aerys and the Targs make some baseborn foreigner and mummer a master on the small council? (new theory) Aerys, before he was mad, knew Varys was of his blood, possibly a bastard brother of his.

The Tristan Rivers speech and the Varys's own words to doomed Kevan Lannister tell us so much I think. Varys spins all these plots in order to guide or control the unruly Targ "children". Because they are "dragons" though they are not easily guided, controlled, or predictable. Like Dany's dragons, they become wild or fierce, and he has to keep spinning other webs. I think that this is what happened with Aerys(madness) and Rhaegar(honor) too. He was acting in the interests of his family, but like Dany's dragons, they just wouldn't listen or react in predictable ways.

I think when he says "for the realm" he means Aegon the Conquerer's realm, the dragon realm. And I think when he says "for the children" he means his half-brother Aerys's children and grand-children. Even though he is a bastard, I think he thinks of them as his niece/nephews and tries to help them from afar as best he can; even though he knows they are just as unruly as Rhaegar and Aerys were... they are family. I don't think he cares about peace or poor kids or the common people at all. I think that's just part of his mummers game. But I think the children he cares about aren't the hot pies and lommy greenhands... I think he cares about the "dragon" children. Aegon's arrival and news of Dany's dragons causing havoc forces him to weave yet another new web that starts with Kevan Lannister's demise.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'm not sure why you think that Varys cares overmuch about Aerys' children and grandchildren. Aegon--if that's really who he is--seems to have done all right; but Daenerys and Viserys spent most of their lives in grinding poverty and in fear for their lives, something that Varys could have easily prevented at any time by encouraging his good friend Illyrio to take them in.

[Skrubbeltrang]

I still think there is one very confusing thing about Varys' behaviour and supposed motivations. Why does he attempt to assassinate Dany via the wine seller? What is Varys' interest in getting Dany killed? And then why send Ser Barristan and Strong Belwas after the attempt failed? There must be more to the story.

[The King of Worms]

Well... Harry the Heir, you may have a point there. Dany and Viserys didn't have a great life growing up and didn't seem to get alot of help from anybody...

But then again, they did escape with their young lives, they did have some good years in "the house with the red door" that Dany remembers so well... They also eventually wound up being sheltered by "uncle" Varys's old friend they very wealthy and connected Illyrio. They also wound up with Ser Jorah as a bodyguard, and they wound up with the dragon eggs. Varys, I think, is at least indirectly responsible for all these things coming to pass.

I would argue that as part of surviving in King Robert's castle, there was only so much he could do without endangering himself or exposing his true identity... plus they were across the sea and on the move. He did what he could, when he could.

He is very cautious and coldblooded. I'm not saying his heart is overflowing with family affection, but I think he is a Targ by blood, and his feelings of family loyalty is something he is extra-careful to conceal.

Anyway... the Uncle Varys theory, Varys as Aerys's bastard brother, I think is way more believable than a Varys wanting to save the realm for the little children. Please. They guy uses kids as slaves and has not once tried to help any of the Stark or Lannister children at all. And he has certainly shown no concern for the smallfolk. GRRM does not show us Varys being particularly caring to any of the servants or commoners. GRRM takes the time to show us Tyrion, Dany, Ned, and other characters of the ruling class showing kindness and/or fairness to commoners and people in trouble. He never shows Varys helping or serving the common folk... Varys just uses that kind of talk to manipulate people like Ned.

The only people Varys has helped other than himself... are the "children": Aegon and Dany, Aerys's bloodline.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I would argue that as part of surviving in King Robert's castle, there was only so much he could do without endangering himself or exposing his true identity... plus they were across the sea and on the move. He did what he could, when he could.

Surely, there were limits to what Varys could do. But we know that Illyrio could have protected Viserys and Daenerys without risk to himself or to Varys. Why do we know that? Because, as you say, eventually Illyrio did do that, and Varys was unaffected by the move. So why didn't Illyrio act sooner, if Varys is so concerned about the two Tarygaryen children?

------

I still think there is one very confusing thing about Varys' behaviour and supposed motivations. Why does he attempt to assassinate Dany via the wine seller? What is Varys' interest in getting Dany killed? And then why send Ser Barristan and Strong Belwas after the attempt failed? There must be more to the story.

Varys had no interest in getting Dany killed, and I don't think he specifically commissioned the wine seller to kill Dany. He just anticipated that an assassination attempt might spur the Dothraki into action, which indeed it did.