[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[Faint]

But after considering the fallout from that failed dragontaming, I have a new appreciation for the purpose of these chapters. Dorne will support Aegon (who is clearly the mummer's dragon Dany was meant to expose), and will loathe Dany for this incident. It's not just the stories from QUentyn's companions that will convince Doran and/or Arianne, but also the rumors that have been swirling all over the eastern continent about her being a bit crazy.

So now Dany has no allies in Westeros. Can she even "invade" as we have all thought before? Or will we really get a re-hash of Aegon the Conqueror, where it's just her and her two other dragon riders and a few aides and associates (and maybe the Unsullied, if they aren't left behind to hold Meereen)? I think that might be where we are headed.

I think you have this in reverse.

Because Doran Martell sent Quentyn and because there is no possible way that the former will be informed of the latter's death any time soon, this will actually prevent Doran from aligning with "Aegon." Think about it, who is more cautious than Doran?

Having said that, what if Doran dies?

Now we're talking. In that case, Arianne is the one running Dorne and it's more than conceivable that she will get the idea into her head that she can be the one to marry "Aegon."

As for Daenerys' arrival, I retain faith in Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Meaning, the Lannisters will still be in power when she arrives, if barely. Daenerys might have no allies but everyone else will be wrecked. "Aegon" will still be around because Daenerys has to be the one to slay this lie, as the House of the Undying prophecy has it. But I think every force in the South will be spent -- Tyrells, Lannisters, Martells, and whatever remains of the Baratheon forces.

[paddington]

Trying to steal a dragon has to be the worst idea ever. It's right up there with covering yourself in petrol an then going for a smoke. He has to be front runner for Westros version of the Darwin awards.

The moment he mentioned his master plan, I thought to myself "thats going to end in tears".

[kg1982]

Basically, Doran's plans for vengeance and retribution were revealed as completely inept. He didn't manage to send anybody to educate and protect Viserys after Willem Darry's death when Viserys was left to fend for himself and Dany as a boy of 12 or so. He seemingly didn't manage to get accurate reports on Viserys's personality at a later date. _And_ he didn't train Arianne to be a political asset to her intended/ shore up Viserys's shortcomings.

I am genuinely curious how Doran managed to convince Oberyn to go along with this bilge for 14 years.

It's interesting considering how impressed everyone was with Doran and his scheming after the Princess in the Tower in AFFC; however, his plans were all for naught. Just like Illyrio and Varys' plans to conquer Westros with fakeAegon might be foiled because Tyrion put a few thoughts into the head of a teenage boy.

I liked Quent as a character. I was expecting him to be the stock-hero character, so the fact that he was plain and bookish was an interesting play on it. He also probably had the most tragic arc in ADWD. Barristan pointed out that Dany should have taken Quent up on his offer and gone back to Westros.

[Gazz22]

I actually liked the loyalty of the Dornishmen. Especially against the backdrop of the Meerense sellswords and slaves. I thought it was touching when it was described how "the big man" desperately tried to pat the flames out with his own hands and how Gerris dropped his sword in dismay knowing his prince was gone. I mean, they followed him into a Dragon's pit against two dragons. Sure, the plan was crazy and didn't work out but they stuck by him.

It might not seem like much but loyalty seems to be rare in the series.

[ARYa_Nym]

Trying to steal a dragon has to be the worst idea ever. It's right up there with covering yourself in petrol an then going for a smoke. He has to be front runner for Westros version of the Darwin awards.

The moment he mentioned his master plan, I thought to myself "thats going to end in tears".

He should have left as soon as the person said, "weren't there two dragons?"

[Ghent]

I just finished the book, and I was seriously disappointed in how the story of Quentyn Martell turned out. He traveled halfway around the world, then failed to woo Daenerys. That I can understand. But not only does he not woo her, he fails to advance the overall story in any direction at all, except for the end, when he accidentally frees Viseryon and Rhaegal. My question is, did we really need I don't know how many POV chapters dedicated to a character who neither affects any other major character in the story, nor offers any sort of insight into the overall plot. It would have been better if GRRM had just kept him as a side character, not as a POV. Maybe if he had been introduced earlier, I might have felt a greater deal of attachment for him, and been more emotionally hit when he gets burned. Instead, all I felt was a bit of pity, and anger that a potentially interesting plot point was dragged across the entire book before being burnt to a crisp.

My opinion: Quentyn opened up the possibility of a legitimate alliance for when Dany makes it back to Westeros, in Dorne. It's mentioned throughout the first 3-books that men would raise their banners for a Targeryan, Quentyn's POV nailed that down. I disagree that revealing this to Dany and Barriston doesn't advance the story. It opens a door that will undoubtedly be walked through. Yes, we learned of this pact in AFFC with Arianne, but Dany had to find out somehow.

Moreso, release Viseryn and Rheagal furthers the plot because it essentially instigates the war in Mereen from a cease fire to go forward, which would allow Dany and crew to begin back to Westeros.

[TheNorthRemembers]

He added a nice twist in the storyline and freed the dragons. I think he was just a foil to demonstrate how wild these dragons were and how they only know Dany and no other friend nor foe. His end was fitting.

[Ghent]

Quentyn fits the stereotype a bit more than Sam, and I'd say Martin's not exactly staying 'true to his inherent sensibilities' by keeping Sam alive, actually.

So... this means Sam is going to die some horrible death, right?

Man...

[Ghent]

He added a nice twist in the storyline and freed the dragons. I think he was just a foil to demonstrate how wild these dragons were and how they only know Dany and no other friend nor foe. His end was fitting.

It also clued us in to the fact that Dany can ride only Drogon, and not the others. Since it was stated a dragon can have only one rider.

Right?

[Ghent]

If I'm not mistaken, that sun rises and sets prophecy was about Drogo becoming himself again. He's already dead so I don't know how its relevant now?

Well, if you go:

Sun rising/setting = Quentyn Martell

Sea going dry = Dothraki sea wilting

Mountains blowing in the wind like ash = burned/crumbling pyramids

Drogon, whom Dany named after Drogo, came to her when she realized she noticed her moonblood.

[ARYa_Nym]

My opinion: Quentyn opened up the possibility of a legitimate alliance for when Dany makes it back to Westeros, in Dorne. It's mentioned throughout the first 3-books that men would raise their banners for a Targeryan, Quentyn's POV nailed that down. I disagree that revealing this to Dany and Barriston doesn't advance the story. It opens a door that will undoubtedly be walked through. Yes, we learned of this pact in AFFC with Arianne, but Dany had to find out somehow.

Moreso, release Viseryn and Rheagal furthers the plot because it essentially instigates the war in Mereen from a cease fire to go forward, which would allow Dany and crew to begin back to Westeros.

She should have treated him better. Dorne won't take his death well and his mother might kill herself.

[Captain Tripps]

Treated him better how? She treated him fairly well IMO. What was she supposed to do, put aside her betrothal and jump into bed with him just because he had a hope and some papers? She made him welcome and kept him safe, and gave him good advice (go home). He didn't listen, then died for his hubris.

[Stinky Steward]

She should have treated him better. Dorne won't take his death well and his mother might kill herself.

How? He came right into the eye of the Meereenese storm and was given all hospitality deserving of a foreign dignitary. Dany & Selmy were probably the only two people in that snake's pit Quentyn could've trusted.

[karaddin]

Another factor I would expect to see come into play with whether Dorne supports Aegon (fake or not) is that he is already a Dornish connection if he is the real deal as he is Doran's nephew. If they decide to accept him as legitimate then they also accept that he is the nephew.

Quentyn's role could be either of those suggested depending on whether word of his demise gets back to Doran or not.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think she should have accepted his marriage proposal but rather accepted the alliance. They were almost like prisoners especially since Daario didn't like them for lying. Barriston felt that it changed everything but she ignored it. Now she has still has no ally in Westeros when she could have had at least one. The Ironmen aren't going to be a real ally. Euron just wants to use her for her dragons. & Victarion just wants to outdo him.

Barriston was the one who told him to go home because of the Harpy.

[reiver]

Treated him better how? She treated him fairly well IMO. What was she supposed to do, put aside her betrothal and jump into bed with him just because he had a hope and some papers? She made him welcome and kept him safe, and gave him good advice (go home). He didn't listen, then died for his hubris.

She pretty much dismissed him straight away as a non-entity. She didn't exactly treat him badly but she was hardly warm to him (her dragons were though). From her perspective he seemed a lot like an unwelcome inconvenience and it did seem to take her a while before she actually spoke one on one with Quentyn. That impression seems to have been the one that the Dornish took as well so how much of that she transmitted to them in her bearing its hard to say. Certainly her dismissal of him based on looks is clear from both her POV and Barristan's.

Then there's Daario. Bad enough that she's rejecting a Prince of Dorne in favour of marrying some merchant from a city on the other side of the world but to rather publicly flaunt that she's fucking a greasy sellsword must have been a bit of an affront. His hostility to them may have been transfered a bit to her since she's so influenced by them.

Either way it's perception that matters and we saw how the Dornishmen responded in Barristan's last chapter. It's safe to say the message they take back to Dorne will not be kind and full of praise. Even if it takes them a while to get back the news that reaches dorne first will be of the slut Queen who found the dornish prince undesirable and fed him to her dragons while her Sellsword pleasured her (after it has been filtered through the volantese and Yunkish rumour mill) I don't think she won herself any allies there (maybe Mace Tyrell).

[Crow's Eye]

I think you have this in reverse.

Because Doran Martell sent Quentyn and because there is no possible way that the former will be informed of the latter's death any time soon, this will actually prevent Doran from aligning with "Aegon." Think about it, who is more cautious than Doran?

That's a good point. Either way, I suspect word of Quentyn's death will reach Dorne before Dany reaches Westeros. So Doran may not throw in with Aegon right from the start, but that news might be what drives him to it.

Having said that, what if Doran dies?

Now we're talking. In that case, Arianne is the one running Dorne and it's more than conceivable that she will get the idea into her head that she can be the one to marry "Aegon."

That would certainly fit with our knowledge of the characters. Arianne knows her father's plan was a Targaryen alliance, she's already shown to be headstrong and feels somewhat jilted, and the Sand Snakes would certainly push her to do it. Also, in that last chapter, Doran seemed far weaker than we've seen him to date. Maybe his health has finally given out on him.

As for Daenerys' arrival, I retain faith in Maggy the Frog's prophecy. Meaning, the Lannisters will still be in power when she arrives, if barely. Daenerys might have no allies but everyone else will be wrecked. "Aegon" will still be around because Daenerys has to be the one to slay this lie, as the House of the Undying prophecy has it. But I think every force in the South will be spent -- Tyrells, Lannisters, Martells, and whatever remains of the Baratheon forces.

I really found it interesting to see the way the North has devolved into armies of a few thousand at best, when we started the series with such huge armies. So I suspect you're probably right about the south - it too will be largely spent soon in order to make the threat of the Others all the more awful.

The Lannisters are almost spent now (relative to the Tyrells and Martells), and Cersei will make short work of their remaining strength in any event. The Tyrells still have considerable forces left, at least relative to most houses. The only way Dorne blows its 50,000 spears (can't recall where I got that number) is if it actually throws in and fights. So for your idea about everyone being spent by the time Dany arrives to work, we need more war. Maybe the last great war is Dorne + Aegon + Stormlords vs. Lannister + Tyrells (and maybe the Vale?). Then Dany arrives to slay the lie of the mummer's dragon and cast Cersei down.

[reiver]

The only way Dorne blows its 50,000 spears (can't recall where I got that number)

It was in ADWD. Seems awfully high though given how Doran talked down the Dornish capabilites as the least populous and able to field the fewest numbers of any region. Given that it's as many as Tywin raised with sellswords and far higher than the North which appears spent after losing around 15 thousand.

[Abaddon]

I'm not sure how to say this properly, but for me, Quentyn made a lot more sense in Dance without Aegon. Once Aegon was introduced, things got really cluttered for me.

Regarding the effect all of this has, a lot of it is yet to come. Dany is stuck in the Dothraki sea facing Jahqo. Tyrion is lingering, Victarion is looming. There's a lot of TBD that I think will have an effect on shaping what we think of the Quentyn chapters and particularly the final chapter.

The waiting is the hardest part... :tantrum:

[Crow's Eye]

It also clued us in to the fact that Dany can ride only Drogon, and not the others. Since it was stated a dragon can have only one rider.

Right?

First, I think it means one rider at a time. Aegon's dragons lived far longer than Aegon and his sisters (and were probably ridden by Aegon's predecessors as well). So I suspect they just develop some sort of connection that is difficult to overcome for a new rider (i.e., they can't just hop on and ride, but given time, they will accept a new rider). So the "heirs" to each dragon were probably designated in advance and brought up to know that dragon, probably easing the transition.

Regardless, I think you have your logic backwards. A dragon having only one rider doesn't mean that one rider can't be the person for each of three dragons (only that she couldn't ride them all at the same time, obviously). So Dany could probably ride all three, but then the transition to new riders for V and R would probably be difficult.

But I'm guessing Dany only ends up riding only Drogon.