[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Wouter]

Remember the man in stone armor who lifted his helm and there was nothing but thick black blood inside? It sounds fairly prophetic to me...

This was definitely a prophetic vision from Bran (who is known to have such visions, maybe sent by Bloodraven) - he saw things he couldn't yet know at that time. And since Jaime and Sandor were looming over both Arya and Sansa, and the giant with thick black blood inside his helmet looming over both, it seems this vision hasn't come true entirely yet.

Jaime has barely been an influence at all on Sansa (he did attempt to find and maim or kill Arya once, after the Joffrey incident), and Gregor has certainly loomed heavily over Sandor but not over Jaime (well, outside his murder of Aegon and Elia I suppose, but I doubt that is the intended meaning). Sandor did "loom over" both Sansa and Arya a whole lot though. So maybe Sandor's part is done (though I doubt it), but Jaime would seem to have some action coming up. And this undead abonimation is now part of his KG, so he would have good reason to be involved.

There is also the prophecy regarding Sansa slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow - which may or may not have been fullfilled by Sansa smashing Robert's doll, but this may have been a red herring and just a bit of "warming up" for what is yet to come.

[Wouter]

Huh? Link please, Marrillion is dead according to the books.

He is. This is based on a misunderstanding of GRRM's recent EW interview. Martin said that Marillion lost his tongue on S1 of the show, while in the books he still has a part to play (with tongue) in ASOS. People confuse it with Martin saying the Dothraki Mago (killed in the show) will play a fairly important role in book 6.

[Alexia]

Thanks, Wouter, I got really confused for a moment.

[Dark Rider]

What was Brienne's mission? To supervise an exchange of prisoners by trading Jamie for Sansa and Arya. When it became evident that Sansa was no longer in the custody of the Lannisters and nobody had any clue where Arya was she should have returned Jamie back to Cat's custody. However, obviously that was a factual impossibility due to the fact that once at King's Landing any refusal to turn over Jamie would have simply resulted in Brienne's death and the Lannisters obtaining Jamie anyways.

I think Brienne's retrival of Jamie is simply to honor the commitment she made to Cat. No Sansa and Arya = No Jamie Free. Jamie will be returned to Cat and he will remain there with his life at risk until Sansa is safely returned. Lady Cat knows that if she just killed Brienne she'd have nothing. She wouldn't have Sansa, she wouldn't have any leverage over the Lannisters, and she'd just have dead bodies with her girls still lost to her. Brienne says "I can bring you back Jamie" to Cat so Cat in turn sees some possibility to get her daughters still remaining and allows Brienne to do so. Jamie goes with Brienne willingly, because a) he made the deal as well and kind of likes Brienne and B) he wants to know where her band of outlaws are.

[Crow's Eye]

[...]

whereas in Bran's dream in AGOT we see the Hound scene you think hasn't happened yet together with what are clearly scenes from AGOT (Jon,Cat) that are happening while Bran is dreaming. IMO, the Hound scene was meant to illustrate Stark's enemies while in KL in AGOT: the Lannisters symbolized by Jaime whom Bran subconsciously feared and the worst of their retainers.

An off-topic quibble re: Bran's dream about Jon:

and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him ...

We all assumed that the Jon scene referred to harsh conditions at the Wall and in the Watch, but after his apparent death in ADWD, that passage is starting to look far more like prophecy. Combined with Dany's vision about the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall, it's looking more and more like Jon's body will be entombed in one of the ice-cells in the Wall.

So Bran's dream doesn't have to be read as pertaining to events of AGOT only. In fact, it's pretty prophetic in many respects, as even the events which appear pretty clear (Cat and Rodrick on the ship) hadn't even happened yet...

[Matarreyes]

Given that someone will have to stop Littlefinger sometime and somewhere, the idea of Jaime/Brienne finding Sansa with him makes much more sense than more UnCat chapters. Also, Brienne's entire storyline about oaths must have its payoff, and we will need to be in her head while she agonizes between her oath (kill Jaime) and her moral compass (help Jaime do something useful). That will not happen if Jaime dies. Add in the fact that he is Tyrion's only half-positive emotional tie back to Westeros amidst a sea of hatred. He will be a long time survivor.

Brienne will not become the Hound. Why would she wear that armor, storywise? No reason at all. Sandor, though many people expect him to fight Gregor, would be much awesomer if he joined in Sansa' rescue. There has been many crimes pinned on him in Riverlands, and I find it interesting that Jaime has been wondering about the truth of it already, and Brienne plainly knows it's not him under the helmet.

[Alexia]

I have to say that the idea of Sandor, Jaime, Brienne, and Ser Robert Strong converging on the Vale in search of Sansa is pretty cool and I rather like it.

[Wouter]

I have to say that the idea of Sandor, Jaime, Brienne, and Ser Robert Strong converging on the Vale in search of Sansa is pretty cool and I rather like it.

If that is the case, it is implied in prophecy that Sansa will kill "ser Robert Strong" - somehow. In a castle made a snow. It will snow everywhere I suppose, but I wonder, will Sansa be able to get back up to the Eyrie somehow, if she is pursued by an unstoppable one-(un)man killing machine?

[Matarreyes]

Ser Robert Strong is a reanimated corpse. Since it clearly does not have Gregor's personality anymore, whose personality does it have? I would think that he does little else than move and obey. Certainly not enough brainpower to be sent to the Vale on a mission by himself.

Jaime and Sandor together does have a certain appeal to it. Lots of appeal. And I don't ever care for Sandor all that much, but I can just imagine the dialogue. Stuff of dreams the likes of which we haven't read since Bronn left Tyrion.

[Wouter]

Is Qyburn doing the remote control, a la the Others and Wights, maybe?

It is quite strongly implied that "Ser Robert" is headless.

[Aegon II]

I'd rather have jaime not maimed ugh. He's gone from being a formidable foe to into an excess baggage.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I too am confused why people think that Brienne is an un-Brienne. She was hanged by the neck (but apparently not until she was dead). The description of her hanging makes it clear that the hangings were by strangulation rather than by broken neck. Having a wound on her neck is consistent with that. I am reminded of Obadiah Hakeswill (sp?) from the Sharpe series, who is always described as having a dark scar around his neck.

To me, one of the interesting things that this series is doing is exploring the meaning of honor (and oaths). An oft-repeated line in ADWD is "words are wind." To a greater or lesser extent, the characters of each of Brienne, Jaime, Jon, Dany, Barristan and Theon explore this theme. The contrast between Brienne and Jaime is particularly interesting as it pits Brienne, who begins as honor personified, against Jaime, who begins as, well, dishonor personified. As they interact, they, in a sense have been moving (morally) towards each other. I think this sets up an interesting conflict - Brienne has a dilemma - neither of her choices is "honorable" under the code she professes, but will she be able to make a choice that is "right" on a higher moral scale?

[Faint]

We all assumed that the Jon scene referred to harsh conditions at the Wall and in the Watch, but after his apparent death in ADWD, that passage is starting to look far more like prophecy. Combined with Dany's vision about the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall, it's looking more and more like Jon's body will be entombed in one of the ice-cells in the Wall.

So Bran's dream doesn't have to be read as pertaining to events of AGOT only. In fact, it's pretty prophetic in many respects, as even the events which appear pretty clear (Cat and Rodrick on the ship) hadn't even happened yet...

Indeed. I think AGoT has a lot more clues about the future of the story than one would think because, if I understand correctly, when GRRM was writing the book, he was still envisioning the series as a trilogy. That being the case, there seem to be quite a few juicy details about events far into the future of the story (i.e., Robert Strong, Jon in the ice-cells, and so on).

[Fearsome Fred]

I too am confused why people think that Brienne is an un-Brienne. She was hanged by the neck (but apparently not until she was dead).

Well, hanging normally kills people.

But un-Brienne was a prediction I made before I read ADWD. Consistent with this, I expected that Brienne would reappear, but WITHOUT having a POV (just as Cat's POV ended when she became undead). So far, my expectations have been at least partially confirmed.

[Alexia]

Ser Robert Strong is a reanimated corpse. Since it clearly does not have Gregor's personality anymore, whose personality does it have? I would think that he does little else than move and obey. Certainly not enough brainpower to be sent to the Vale on a mission by himself.

The problem is that we don't know how it works. It is apparently living in KG quarters, and spooks out the other men -- understandably so, given that it doesn't speak, eat, or have normal bodily functions, and it is eerily reminiscent of a dead man. But it met Cersei at the gates with the lords and lifted her off the ground, it has some functionality.

Its possible Qyburn remote controls it somehow, or that he gives it an order and it obeys. The wights retain some memory function, it is pointed out, enough to know where the LC sleeps and try to eliminate him, enough to pass for dead until they are carried into the castle. Is this creature wight-like? What is it? What did Qyburn do?

[Wouter]

Well, hanging normally kills people.

But un-Brienne was a prediction I made before I read ADWD. Consistent with this, I expected that Brienne would reappear, but WITHOUT having a POV (just as Cat's POV ended when she became undead). So far, my expectations have been at least partially confirmed.

Martin has implied she will come back as a POV anyway. She was simply cut down after she shouted 'sword' at the last moment, before the strangulation had done its work.

[Faint]

By the way, the other reason I think Brienne will stay with Catelyn as a hostage while Jaime goes off and tries to find Sansa is that I think the Brotherhood Without Banners needs a POV to tell their story. I don't think the main culprits of the Red Wedding will die off-screen and Catelyn isn't a POV anymore, hence, the need for Brienne to stay with her.

[Fearsome Fred]

Martin has implied she will come back as a POV anyway.

How? As far as I know, he has said nothing one way or another.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Well, hanging normally kills people.

But un-Brienne was a prediction I made before I read ADWD. Consistent with this, I expected that Brienne would reappear, but WITHOUT having a POV (just as Cat's POV ended when she became undead). So far, my expectations have been at least partially confirmed.

Actually, hanging is a terribly inefficient way to kill someone, particularly if the "drop" isn't calculated correctly so that the victim's neck is broken. In fact, condemned criminals would sometimes bribe hangmen to make sure that the rope length, etc. would be calculated correctly so that they would die quickly rather than slowly and in agony by strangulation. If Brienne could still somehow choke out a word, it is perfectly plausible that she was then cut down and is alive (and not undead). Her aging is also consistent with the stress she has been under. Stress, both mental and physical, does age people (look at before and after shots of US presidents, even just a couple of years into their terms; think of the stories of Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots going white overnight (and bald in Mary's case). I have to say I continue to disagree.

[Wouter]

How? As far as I know, he has said nothing one way or another.

In one of the recent interviews, he talked about POV's already written but moved to TWOW (Sansa, also an Arya chapter and Arianne IIRC) and others who would also return (Sam, Damphair, Brienne,...).