[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Black Crow]

I think the simple problem we've got here is that we're missing a Brienne POV that has been shunted forward to Winds of Winter, with the result that the throwaway fragment we've got makes no sense by itself.

[Black Crow]

I know a lot of people think Brienne's word had something to do with the sword or ice, but I'm not sure why that wouldn't infuriate UnCat even more, knowing that her husband's sword was melted down and reused by the Lannisters.

Sword is actually the most logical single word for her to have shouted.

Before being dragged off to die she was given a straightforward choice between a sword (to kill Jaime) or a noose, for herself. At first she refused to choose, but then at the end of her last POV as she was being hoisted up she saw that Pod was being hanged too.

In theory its possible she could have shouted anything from Arya to Rumpelstiltskin, but sword is the one word which fits the story.

[Faint]

That she will hold Brienne hostage and let him look for Sansa may be a good idea, but wouldn't the other way round be more reasonable from Catelyn's POV, if she doesn't actually has him killed outright? Especially considering how Sansa would react if she became aware Jaime Lannister was approaching her?

Maybe Thoros will see something in his flames that makes the BWB reconsider. Maybe they kill him, but he gets the kiss of fire and rises again. Maybe they hope to make use of him to free Edmure and Jeyne and Roslin, or to retake Riverrun (again with the idea of Brienne as a hostage). We know Jaime goes missing after he leaves with Brienne. I hope Martin will resolve this with a sample chapter or a reading, well before TWOW comes out.

I'm considering various factors when I theorize that Brienne will have to stay with Catelyn while Jaimes goes off to find Sansa.

The first is that Jaime needs mobility to deal with Cersei and her creation (i.e., Ser Robert Strong). This also ties into the dream that Bran had in the first book which I think will be fulfilled in the Vale. Under this theory, Jaime, Ser Robert Strong, Sandor, and Arya all converge in the Vale. Jaime in order to find Sansa after being tipped off; Ser Robert Strong to assassinate Sansa under orders of Cersei after she has been tipped off; Sandor in order to protect Sansa after he has been tipped off; and Arya in order to assassinate Littlefinger under contract after Illyrio and/or Varys pay the Faceless Men to kill him.

I know this is all very convoluted but you also have to consider that the story really has to start coming together if GRRM plans on finishing the series in the next two books. In any case, I think this confrontation ends with Sandor, Ser Robert Strong, and Littlefinger all dead. Jaime ends up returning Sansa and Arya to their mother and is forgiven; Brienne is released. Catelyn either commits suicide at this point, requests that somebody kill her, or she gives the kiss of life to somebody and dies that way (maybe even to one of her daughters, who dies in the above confrontation, Jaime bringing the body back).

The other factor I'm considering is this: Either Jaime or Brienne have to stay with Catelyn because there are no other POVs with her. Somebody needs to be there for the Frey revenge arc. Walder Frey and company are not dying off-screen.

[Wouter]

Sword is actually the most logical single word for her to have shouted.

Before being dragged off to die she was given a straightforward choice between a sword (to kill Jaime) or a noose, for herself. At first she refused to choose, but then at the end of her last POV as she was being hoisted up she saw that Pod was being hanged too.

In theory its possible she could have shouted anything from Arya to Rumpelstiltskin, but sword is the one word which fits the story.

Yes, it is heavily implied Brienne shouted "sword" - to show the outlaws that she wanted to take up Stoneheart's chance at last (to save Pod, no doubt).

Pod is an innocent and a person she likes, saving him should take precedence over saving Jaime, especially as she can't really fault Stoneheart for wanting him dead, deep down. Jaime has been nice to Brienne personally (well, since the Bloody Mummers thing anyway) but that he has wronged Catelyn (and others) quite horribly is something even Brienne must realise.

[Fearsome Fred]

I think the simple problem we've got here is that we're missing a Brienne POV that has been shunted forward to Winds of Winter, with the result that the throwaway fragment we've got makes no sense by itself.

No missing POV. Brienne's POV chapters have stopped for the same reason that Jaime's POV chapters have stopped, which is the same reason that Catelyn's POVs had stopped. They have become dead things.

[Freygatarian]

I think its strange how Brienne face was covered. I suspect but don't have any proof is that she died but what ever she yelled out caused zombie-Cat to bring her back to life as zombie-Brienne.

It's not strange at all that her face was covered. Biter bit the shit out of it. She's bandaged up is all, Jaime even says “That bandage ... you’ve been wounded ...”, not "your head is completely and mysteriously covered, I can't tell if you're human!"

She's not a zombie, she's a human that has a bite (from a human, not a zombie) and a bandage. Sure, she looks like she aged 10 years, but then again the book said the same thing about Jaime after his captivity at Riverrun.

[Fearsome Fred]

It's not strange at all that her face was covered. Biter bit the shit out of it.

What is strange is that her POV has stopped. This means that GRRM is hiding something. He is not (as with Bran) hiding the fact that she is alive. He is hiding Something Else.

And now Jaime's POV has stopped too.

She's not a zombie, she's a human that has a bite (from a human, not a zombie) and a bandage. Sure, she looks like she aged 10 years, but then again the book said the same thing about Jaime after his captivity at Riverrun.

They will say it again about Jaime when Jaime turns up again ... as a Dead Thing.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

What is strange is that her POV has stopped. This means that GRRM is hiding something. He is not (as with Bran) hiding the fact that she is alive. He is hiding Something Else.

And now Jaime's POV has stopped too.

They will say it again about Jaime when Jaime turns up again ... as a Dead Thing.

No more Zombies please.

IMO, Brienne only had a PoV in Feast because Jaime was off doing other things, and GRRM thought that her part of the story needed being told. Now that they are both together I see no need for a Brienne PoV.

What will happen next? I'm not sure. But I don't think Brienne is unBrienne. What we are seeing is her dealing with conflicting Oaths, as Jaime has said "they make you swear and swear until its impossible to keep them all". She swore to find Sansa Stark and return her to Catelyn. She swore to keep Jaime safe. Now, to save Pod, she swore to Catelyn that she would bring Jaime Lannister to justice. The last two appear to be in conflict... unless!

Unless... Brienne champions Jaime in a trial by combat. So that's what I think will happen.

[Fearsome Fred]

No more Zombies please.

Careful what you wish for. DANCE may well be the last book GRRM will write. Probably is.

But if the Rh'llor-zombie theme was heading nowhere, he ought not have introduced it at all.

But I think the Rh'llor zombies are like the ghost grass from the shadow lands beyond Asshai. Growing, spreading, replacing the living grass, and glowing with the souls of the damned.

Jaime and Brienne will become the shadow things from Bran's dream. Brienne is the Shadow with the terrible face of a hound. Jaime is the shadow with armor shining like the sun.

IMO, Brienne only had a PoV in Feast because Jaime was off doing other things, and GRRM thought that her part of the story needed being told. Now that they are both together I see no need for a Brienne PoV.

Your explanation does not fit the facts. Now that they are together, Jaime's POV has gone missing as well.

[Hotpie Targaryen]

Their POVs have "gone missing" how, exactly?

[alguien]

I had expected her to just cut Jaime down, as she was ordered. That’s what knights do.

Hmmm. Well I didn't expect that, because it goes quite against Brienne's character and would have been very unsatisfying as a narrative arc.

But now I do wonder what is going to happen. Is she bringing Jaime to a trial? By battle? A hanging? Will she have second thoughts? Maybe they'll fight again? Or hook up? Or will she enlist Jaime's aid in rescuing Plotdevice Payne?

Reminds me of how Davos's fate was left hanging in the previous book by word of mouth. Very, very curious to see what happens.

[Fearsome Fred]

Their POVs have "gone missing" how, exactly?

Important events have occurred "offscreen" to which they were (presumably) a witness; time has marched forward from those events; and the reader remains in the dark.

How and why did Brienne survive? We don't know.

Jaime has been gone longer than he anticipated -- long enough for his absence to be noticed at King's Landing. But whatever has happened to him, we don't find out through his eyes.

[Fearsome Fred]

I hope you at least realize that you belong to a tiny-tiny minority.

The direwolves agree with me. Tyrion sucks.

[Hotpie Targaryen]

Brienne's biggest flaw as a character was that she refused to understand why Jaime broke his oath. She was always condemning him for being a Kingslayer - not because he killed the king, but because he broke his oath to do so.

Now, Brienne is in essentially the same position. She has to choose between doing what she knows is right - that is, not bringing Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and letting him be butchered for crimes she knows he didn't commit; and choosing to follow her oath - that is, bringing Jaime to Lady Stoneheart to be butchered because she swore to do it.

It's not quite that simple - Martin never is - because you have the added problem of Podrick Payne and Ser Hyle being used by Stoneheart as hostages.

Also, we probably wouldn't care at all ("Give up Jaime! He's a douchebag!") except we've gotten Jaime's PoVs and we know that (child-thru-window-throwing examples aside) he isn't that bad of a guy. And as the story moves on, he starts down the path of redemption. This makes Brienne's decision actually MATTER to us as readers.

Brienne is being given the same choice (essentially) that Jaime was given. It'll be interesting to see how she handles it.

[Errant Bard]

crimes she knows he didn't commit

Like attempting to murder Bran, or attacking Riverrun, or leading Lannister armies?

[alguien]

Like attempting to murder Bran, or attacking Riverrun, or leading Lannister armies?

I think specifically the Red Wedding. The first two happened before Jaime swore an oath at sword point to Catelyn, and though he is guilty of the last, I think the whole "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" line from Roose Bolton is the driving force behind Lady Stoneheart wanting him dead.

[Fearsome Fred]

Now I wonder what is going to happen.

Jaime, after a prolonged absence, will reappear accompanied by Sandor Clegane, who is once again wearing the Hound helmet. We will not know their POVs, and they will give no adequate explanation as to what happened to them, or what became of Brienne. Both will be gradually revealed to be particularly devoid of conscience, compassion or human feeling.

It will eventually be revealed that "Sandor" is really Un-Brienne, and both Un-Jaime and Un-Brienne are Rh'llor's Shadow-Things.

[iamthedave]

Important events have occurred "offscreen" to which they were (presumably) a witness; time has marched forward from those events; and the reader remains in the dark.

How and why did Brienne survive? We don't know.

Jaime has been gone longer than he anticipated -- long enough for his absence to be noticed at King's Landing. But whatever has happened to him, we don't find out through his eyes.

That's because Martin's entire style hinges on cliffhangers.

The only reason that chapter was included was because people have been waiting to find out how the cliffhanger concludes for ten years. So martin included a chapter that most likely would have been in Winds of Winter just to let us know that in fact Brienne is not dead, and hinting at the plotline.

Jaime is not dead. Yet.

[eyeheartsansa]

The point is to put Brienne into an impossible situation with conflicting vows: to Lady Catelyn, now an undead horror bent on revenge, and to Jaime Lannister. Which vows will she keep and which will she break?

Seems about right to me. Plus, I heard a rumor that Oathbreaker is 10d20 piercing damage, but only if the wielder is of Lawful alignment.

[Fearsome Fred]

So martin included a chapter that most likely would have been in Winds of Winter just to let us know that in fact Brienne is not dead [...]

In that case he failed. We will have to wait another five (?) years to find out if she is truly and properly alive. A Brienne POV chapter would have achieved this purpose better.

But if his goal was to FOOL people into thinking she was alive, he has succeeded.