[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[alguien]

Seems about right to me. Plus, I heard a rumor that Oathbreaker is 10d20 piercing damage, but only if the wielder is of Lawful alignment.

I want to +5000 this. :rofl:

[Hotpie Targaryen]

In that case he failed. We will have to wait another five (?) years to find out if she is truly and properly alive. A Brienne POV chapter would have achieved this purpose better.

But if his goal was to FOOL people into thinking she was alive, he has succeeded.

I think the whole point of NOT having a Brienne chapter had nothing to do with whether she's alive or undead. Personally I don't get the whole "She's undead!" point of view...there's been nothing to indicate that's at all likely and just seems like wild and unfounded speculation.

The most plausible reason for not including a Brienne chapter is to increase the mystery and suspense in Jaime's storyline. If we'd gotten a Brienne chapter, we'd likely know what her motives are and what she intends to do, before Martin and his editors wanted to spill the beans. By saving her chapters for the next book, aDwD forces us to speculate on what Brienne's motivations and intentions are towards Jaime. Is she going to kill him? Deliver him to Stoneheart? Join up with him to find Sansa and/or Arya? We don't know. Nothing deeper than that, in my opinion.

[Winterfelon]

Quote

It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. “She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”

Jaime scrambled to his feet. “My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon.” Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what’s happened to her face? “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

This surely rules out unBrienne...

No evidence of 'unning' either on or off screen for me. :)

[Skillet]

This might be a simpleton's point of view, but...

I think to members of this forum, it was very obvious that Brienne didn't die at the end of AFFC. But to much of the general reading public, they probably did not think twice about "Brienne screamed a word" being a cliffhanger. They just thought she screamed and died.

Upon my first reading, that was my reaction too. My initial thought was "I can't believe GRRM wrote a zillion chapters about Brienne's futile quest just to kill her off. What a waste of time!" It was only a little later that I realized she was probably not dead, and that was only because I took the time to reread AFFC and also I like to read the forum posts here. But you have thousands of readers who did neither of those things and probably thought, as I did, that Brienne was simply dead.

If that's the case, then just the revelation in ADWD that she's still alive should be a moment of surprise for most readers. Yes, it's a new cliffhanger that we catch only a glimpse of her, but that glimpse probably caused many readers to say, "Wow, I thought she was dead! What's going on?" Etc etc. Whereas to all of the members of this forum, it was simply assumed that she had to be alive, and they thought nothing of the fact that she made an appearance.

With that in mind, the progression makes sense. They used ADWD simply to show that she's still around. A revelation for many people, just not the ones on this forum.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

sorry doublepost

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think the whole point of NOT having a Brienne chapter had nothing to do with whether she's alive or undead. Personally I don't get the whole "She's undead!" point of view...there's been nothing to indicate that's at all likely and just seems like wild and unfounded speculation.

Don't worry, it's not just you! In fact the only one posting that seems to be Fearsome Fred... he just posts a lot. :huh:

The most plausible reason for not including a Brienne chapter is to increase the mystery and suspense in Jaime's storyline. If we'd gotten a Brienne chapter, we'd likely know what her motives are and what she intends to do, before Martin and his editors wanted to spill the beans. By saving her chapters for the next book, aDwD forces us to speculate on what Brienne's motivations and intentions are towards Jaime. Is she going to kill him? Deliver him to Stoneheart? Join up with him to find Sansa and/or Arya? We don't know. Nothing deeper than that, in my opinion.

Exactly. A Brienne PoV would give away too much at this point. Also Jaime not having another PoV chapter is totally consistent with what GRRM does - news about characters which we later find out is false (see Davos in affc).

You might as well say that Bran and Davos must be undead because their chapters left off in the middle of the book, too. Sillyness!

[MtnLion]

Since UnCat has been brought up, I thought that it would be an interesting turn if UnCat gave Jon the gift to end her time.

[Knight of Ashes]

If things turn out bad for Jaime- and there's good reason to believe it will- I'll just pretend his story ends with him tossing Cersei's plea for help in the fire.

Otherwise, it'd be a bit awkward for the person who triggered his attempt at redemption to be the one to lead him to his death. Or is that supposed to be irony?

[Dolorous Rob]

I think Jaimies dream that makes him save Brianne in the bear pit is literal. He will stand side by side and fight others with her, or something like that. It is not 'known,' but seriously, their characters are highlighted by their dichotomy and subsequent convergence, and how cool would it be to see then tag team slaying others. Super cool.

[Fearsome Fred]

I think to members of this forum, it was very obvious that Brienne didn't die at the end of AFFC. But to much of the general reading public, they probably did not think twice about "Brienne screamed a word" being a cliffhanger. They just thought she screamed and died.

Some people maybe thought that. But not many, I would think.

Upon my first reading, that was my reaction too. My initial thought was "I can't believe GRRM wrote a zillion chapters about Brienne's futile quest just to kill her off. What a waste of time!" It was only a little later that I realized she was probably not dead, [...]

I had the exact opposite reaction. At first, I assumed she would still be alive, and survive her "cliffhanger". Only later did I "realize" she was probably dead after all (and ultimately undead).

If that's the case, then just the revelation in ADWD that she's still alive should be a moment of surprise for most readers.

Most readers assume she is alive.

[Fearsome Fred]

Exactly. A Brienne PoV would give away too much at this point.

Right. Because it is clearly unreasonable to expect a 1000-page book, after a 6-year wait, to contain more than the tiniest iota of story progress.

Also Jaime not having another PoV chapter is totally consistent with what GRRM does - news about characters which we later find out is false (see Davos in affc).

The non-chronological presentation of POVs, due to the Feast/Dance split, was supposed to be the exception, not the rule.

A better example for your purposes would be Bran, who was supposedly dead for a few hundred pages before his POV reappeared.

But in Brienne's case (unlike Bran) he is not hiding the fact that the character is alive - not any more. So what is he hiding?

[Fearsome Fred]

Quote

It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. “She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”

Jaime scrambled to his feet. “My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon.” Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what’s happened to her face? “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

This surely rules out unBrienne...

How does it rule out unBrienne?

[Fearsome Fred]

The most plausible reason for not including a Brienne chapter is to increase the mystery and suspense in Jaime's storyline. If we'd gotten a Brienne chapter, we'd likely know what her motives are and what she intends to do, before Martin and his editors wanted to spill the beans. By saving her chapters for the next book, aDwD forces us to speculate on what Brienne's motivations and intentions are towards Jaime. Is she going to kill him? Deliver him to Stoneheart? Join up with him to find Sansa and/or Arya? We don't know. Nothing deeper than that, in my opinion.

Well, in my case, I think she DOES intend to kill him. In fact, I think she already has killed him.

But since my opponents rule out that possibility out of hand, GRRM has obviously failed in what you allege is his attempt to generate cheap suspense involving 2 minor characters spanning 11+ years and 3 volumes.

[Red Dirt]

But in Brienne's case (unlike Bran) he is not hiding the fact that the character is alive - not any more. So what is he hiding?

Some others have said this before but, IMO, he's hiding her motives. We don't actually know what she's planning on doing with Jaime.

[NatronStark]

Using information from my Kindle, AGoT, page 162. It's the chapter after Ned kills Lady, if that doesn't work.

Could anybody possibly quote this dream on here? I'd greatly appreciate it. I don't have that book currently.

[Fearsome Fred]

Some others have said this before but, IMO, he's hiding her motives. We don't actually know what she's planning on doing with Jaime.

If you automatically rule out the possibility that she really does mean to kill him (as my opponents apparently do) then it is just not that interesting of a mystery.

[kalex716]

I like the idea of Arya being sent to kill someone, though I always figured she'd be tasked with killing one of her family members.

Yea but it makes more sense for Arya to come back to Westeros to put a hit on someone from her death litany she mumbles every night. I would be suprised if its anyone not on it. More than likely it will be Cersei(she may even disguise herself as her brother) or possibly undeadgregor.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

If you automatically rule out the possibility that she really does mean to kill him (as my opponents apparently do) then it is just not that interesting of a mystery.

Um, who are "your opponents"? And when did anyone say she can't possibly be planning to kill him? I'm reading a lot here about conflicting vows, and several of us have proposed possible outcomes. My preferred outcome given my reading of Brienne's character is that she would bring Jaime to Cat, but then champion him in a trial. But that's just me.

And yes, a Brienne PoV would give away her motives, unless GRRM used some really contrived means. We don't know whether she plans to bring him to Cat's justice, to tell him what really happened and plan their escape, or to kill him in the woods alone. We honestly don't know.

As for why no more Jaime chapters? Again, it's because GRRM likes to keep us in suspense. In fact I think Jaime's disappearance is noted in the epilogue by Kevan - so there's literally no room for another Jaime chapter after that (it's the epilogue). It's like all those chapters in aCoK when everyone is hearing about Bran and Rickon's deaths, and we don't know either! Eeek! Same here with Jaime. No resolution in this case, but this book wasn't really about Jaime.

[Aress]

Can I just ask what the fascination behind un-Brienne is?

If she screamed out a word (which we were not told what it was and therefore it is probably important) before she was strangled, in all liklihood she was probably let down before dying because of the word she said. Also if you recall, she was "pulled up" on the rope, not "dropped", which means death would have been via strangulation as opposed to a broken neck - which takes signficantly longer.

Sorry, but I find the constant undead discussion completely bizarre. It's normal Brienne, going to see Jaime for reasons we are not aware of yet.

[Fearsome Fred]

Um, who are "your opponents"? And when did anyone say she can't possibly be planning to kill him? I'm reading a lot here about conflicting vows, and several of us have proposed possible outcomes.

I see people considering the every outcome under the sun except the only one that actually seems probable in light of the evidence: Brienne has already killed Jaime, and has done it offscreen, which is why he is now missing for so long.

According to Brienne (UnBrienne?) it is only a day's ride to Sansa and Sandor. We know she is lying, and it is only going to take Jaime 24 hours to find out he has been lied to. Well, those 24 hours have passed.

My preferred outcome given my reading of Brienne's character is that she would bring Jaime to Cat, but then champion him in a trial. But that's just me.

Right. So you don't think she will kill him. So what was that you were going on about?

Her assignment was not to bring him to Cat. Her assignment was to kill him: Her choice was "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer."

And yes, a Brienne PoV would give away her motives, unless GRRM used some really contrived means.

So what? None of you believe she is actually going to do it anyway.

We don't know whether she plans to bring him to Cat's justice, to tell him what really happened and plan their escape, or to kill him in the woods alone. We honestly don't know.

Her actions are consistent with her assignment: To kill him. Her cover story implies an intent to do it within 24 hours, since that is how long it will take for Jaime to realize he has been lied to. The amount of time that has passed, and the fact that Jaime has not been heard from, implies his death has already happened.

Bran's vision of the "shadow" with armor like the sun, implies that Jaime will become as a Shadow Creature of Rh'llor. The shadow with the terrible face of a hound is presumably Brienne, since Sandor never became a Rh'llor-Thing, and has left the Helmet behind.

We can guess from his dream of him and Brienne under the Rock that SOME entity wants him. Is it Rh'llor?

As for why no more Jaime chapters? Again, it's because GRRM likes to keep us in suspense.

It did not seem to work with you. You don't think she has or will kill him.