[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Fearsome Fred]

If she screamed out a word (which we were not told what it was and therefore it is probably important) before she was strangled, in all liklihood she was probably let down before dying because of the word she said.

The word would be "sword", as in "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose ...."

Why would she be hanged anyway? Perhaps they did not cut her down fast enough. Or perhaps because an undead Brienne is more useful to Rh'llor than a truly alive one: Less merciful; Less human.

She will become the Shadow with the terrible face of the Hound, from Bran's dream. ("Shadows" are creatures of Rh'llor).

- same height

- similar combat abilities

- broad shoulders

- also has half a face

- blue eyes, faded in undeath, will be mistaken for Sandor's grey.

- last seen in the vicinity of the Hound's helmet.

- her offer to bring Jaime to the Hound suggests a fake Hound

Sorry, but I find the constant undead discussion completely bizarre. It's normal Brienne, going to see Jaime for reasons we are not aware of yet.

Unless GRRM is misleading us, it is pretty clear what she is there for. To kill the Kingslayer.

[ARYa_Nym]

That makes sense. They were lingering over Sansa and Arya right? Jaimie and Brienne are supposed to find them.

[Aress]

The word would be "sword", as in "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose ...."

Why would she be hanged anyway? Perhaps they did not cut her down fast enough. Or perhaps because an undead Brienne is more useful to Rh'llor than a truly alive one: Less merciful; Less human.

She will become the Shadow with the terrible face of the Hound, from Bran's dream. ("Shadows" are creatures of Rh'llor).

- same height

- similar combat abilities

- broad shoulders

- also has half a face

- blue eyes, faded in undeath, will be mistaken for Sandor's grey.

- last seen in the vicinity of the Hound's helmet.

- her offer to bring Jaime to the Hound suggests a fake Hound

Errr, what? How do you know it was sword? It could, quite literally, have been anything.... anything.

And how did you somehow jump to the conclusion that she will become the Shadow? You are of course entitled to your theories, it's just that I find this somewhat stretching.

Unless GRRM is misleading us, it is pretty clear what she is there for. To kill the Kingslayer.

GRRM misleading us? Pretty clear? What?

Again, I have no idea how you come to these hard and fast conclusions. Nothing is clear. All we know is that Brienne has sought out Jaime after a near death experience. And... that's about it!

[Tagganaro]

wow, this is fantastic. I really don't see where it's coming from, but cool to think about none the less.

But I really don't get why a) Uncat would kill Brienne and B)If that happened, why would Brienne go after Jaime? If she was given her life and made to swear a vow to Uncat, then it would make sense for her to go after Jaime. If she was killed, why would she follow through with anything Uncat wanted her to do?

Secondly, why would Uncat kill herself in order to pass her unlife on to Brienne? We've been led to believe that Beric had to die in order to pass the unlife onto Cat. We knew why Beric would do such a thing, he was bored of it all. But we know Uncat is still set on vengeance for all the Freys and pretty much anyone involved with the RW. Why would she kill herself before she accomplished this?

[Clash]

wow, this is fantastic. I really don't see where it's coming from, but cool to think about none the less.

But I really don't get why a) Uncat would kill Brienne and B)If that happened, why would Brienne go after Jaime? If she was given her life and made to swear a vow to Uncat, then it would make sense for her to go after Jaime. If she was killed, why would she follow through with anything Uncat wanted her to do?

Exactly. In fact why would Cat need Brienne to be undead to carry out her wishes? She is far more likely to do what she wants alive.

Secondly, why would Uncat kill herself in order to pass her unlife on to Brienne? We've been led to believe that Beric had to die in order to pass the unlife onto Cat. We knew why Beric would do such a thing, he was bored of it all. But we know Uncat is still set on vengeance for all the Freys and pretty much anyone involved with the RW. Why would she kill herself before she accomplished this?

I'm unsure where you're getting this 'passing unlife along' thing from. Thoros was the one who was able to breathe life back into the dead, not Beric. Beric asked for him not to do it again and so died fully, the next time he was killed as far as I can make out.

There are two possible routes for Brienne/Jaime to take - the first is the most obvious: take Jaime and kill him as ordered by Cat, the second is to fulfil her original oath to Cat and find Sansa and/or Arya.

[Phostopheles]

Her actions are consistent with her assignment: To kill him. Her cover story implies an intent to do it within 24 hours, since that is how long it will take for Jaime to realize he has been lied to. The amount of time that has passed, and the fact that Jaime has not been heard from, implies his death has already happened.

The only alternative I see without completely shitting on the story...

1st half of WoW:

Bran

Davos

Sansa

Aemon

Arianne

Areo

Theon

Asha

Brienne

Jaime

KILL OFF HALF OF THOSE CHARACTERS

add to 2nd half of WOW *WHILE STILL KEEPING US INFORMED ABOUT THE CHARACTERS WHO SURVIVED THE FIRST HALF*

Melisandre

Daenerys

Tyrion

Barristan

Victarion

Cersei

Connington

Arya

Sam

KILL OFF SOME OF THOSE CHARACTERS FOR GOOD MEASURE.

Add a Tyrell POV for good measure.

If this reaches close to 2000 manuscript pages, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK GROELL, DON'T CUT ANYTHING.

If a Martell POV, at least one Greyjoy POV, Connington/Barristan POV, and at least one major Stark and Lannister don't disappear before the end of WoW, I'm giving up on this series. It's simply grown too big for Martin to fit every character into each installment.

[Winterfelon]

How does it rule out unBrienne?

There's zero indication that there's anythign wrong with her other than the injuries we know about already.

As someone else said, she was bitten by a human not a zombie, there's no greyscale etc there's no 'OMG, she looks like a zombie' which we had when both Dondarrion and UnCat were revealed.

Based on what we've seen (from her own POV and from this chapter), for me there is zero real evidence that there is an 'unBrienne'.

Now, sure it's possible she may end up as such, but - at this point at least - I'm firmly in the "She's alive, Brienne's ALIVE!" camp! :)

[Winterfelon]

All we know is that Brienne has sought out Jaime after a near death experience. And... that's about it!

Word! :D

[eyeheartsansa]

This might be a simpleton's point of view, but...

I think to members of this forum, it was very obvious that Brienne didn't die at the end of AFFC. But to much of the general reading public, they probably did not think twice about "Brienne screamed a word" being a cliffhanger. They just thought she screamed and died.

Upon my first reading, that was my reaction too. My initial thought was "I can't believe GRRM wrote a zillion chapters about Brienne's futile quest just to kill her off. What a waste of time!" It was only a little later that I realized she was probably not dead, and that was only because I took the time to reread AFFC and also I like to read the forum posts here. But you have thousands of readers who did neither of those things and probably thought, as I did, that Brienne was simply dead.

If that's the case, then just the revelation in ADWD that she's still alive should be a moment of surprise for most readers. Yes, it's a new cliffhanger that we catch only a glimpse of her, but that glimpse probably caused many readers to say, "Wow, I thought she was dead! What's going on?" Etc etc. Whereas to all of the members of this forum, it was simply assumed that she had to be alive, and they thought nothing of the fact that she made an appearance.

With that in mind, the progression makes sense. They used ADWD simply to show that she's still around. A revelation for many people, just not the ones on this forum.

Yeah, I think sometimes spending too much time on these forums can dilute the reader's experience a good bit, when thousands of people can piece together the rest of the story on their own. Most of the big revelations in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows were nearly foregone conclusions for this reason.

If only reading/posting here wasn't like crack-rock!

[TKO]

Jaime & Thronos vs Un-everyone, and the HoundMK.3

[rulandor]

After reading the lively discussion in this thread, I decided to go back to what GRRM actually wrote. On re-reading p. 646 in the Bantam Hardcover, I didn't find any hint to most theories bandied about here.

The "day's ride" could mean anything. It could mean that Brienne got hints to the place where Arya left Sandor. It could mean that the village of Pennytree is a day's ride from the Quiet Isle, where Friar Sandor is peacefully digging graves. Something more fantastic: the bounty hunter Ser Shadwick could have kidnapped Sansa from the Moon Gate and brought her to a place a "day's ride" from Pennytree (remember, he took up service with LF there, probably having had discovered who Alayne Stone actually is).

Brienne to kill Jaime or take him to Lady Stoneheart - where on earth is any hint to that? Neither the prior history of Brienne and Jaime nor the text at exact this place in the book supports that.

The impression of p. 646 for me is very much: Brienne and Jaime are going to be off in search for "the girl". Whether she is Sansa or Arya or whether they mistake the trail of one for the trail of the other, that remains to be seen.

[Fearsome Fred]

There's zero indication that there's anythign wrong with her other than the injuries we know about already.

What other injuries would you expect there to be?

You claimed it "rules out" her being a red zombie. How?

As someone else said, she was bitten by a human not a zombie, there's no greyscale etc there's no 'OMG, she looks like a zombie' which we had when both Dondarrion and UnCat were revealed.

UnCat was not bitten by a zombie, and did not have greyscale, either.

UnCat was dead for 3 days. Dondarion had, like Brienne, only the injuries that were inflicted on him.

Brienne obviously does not look good. Her aged and crappy appearance does not necessarily PROVE she is a zombie, but it is hardly be said to be inconsistent with the notion, either.

Based on what we've seen (from her own POV and from this chapter), for me there is zero real evidence that there is an 'unBrienne'.

By "zero real evidence" you mean, of course, that this is a reader theory, and GRRM has not completely given away the show yet. But you claimed to have "ruled out" (which to me means disproven) this theory.

Now, sure it's possible she may end up as such, but - at this point at least - I'm firmly in the "She's alive, Brienne's ALIVE!" camp! :)

Too bad the next book will never be released and we will never find out which one of us is right.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I see people considering the every outcome under the sun except the only one that actually seems probable in light of the evidence: Brienne has already killed Jaime, and has done it offscreen, which is why he is now missing for so long.

Mr. Fred, you might want to consider that your theory is pretty fringe and you're basically the only one who believes it in all its detail. You're certainly the only one who seems to have gleaned this theory from the books directly (a few people have congratulated you on your creativity and think it's an interesting possibility, myself included). But it's okay to be fringe! And it's certainly no reason to go about acting as if we are stupid for not believing it, and systematically ignoring all the arguments made against it. But feel free to rub it in all our faces in 5 years once we find out what happened!

Could Brienne be undead? Possibly. But there's no direct evidence for this.

Could Jaime be killed offscreen? It would be a first as this has not yet happened to a PoV character in aSoIaF.

Would Brienne kill Jaime unless she absolutely had to? This seems out of character and would require some explanation, hence why another Jaime or Brienne PoV seems likely.

Could Bran's prophecy of the golden man and the giant refer to unBrienne and unJaime? Of course it could, but the giant is much better fit for Gregor/Robert Strong, and there's nothing to say that the golden man (if Jaime at all) must be a R'hllor zombie.

It did not seem to work with you. You don't think she has or will kill him.

As I said, I think Brienne killing Jaime is one of many possible outcomes. The many possibilities that GRRM is trying to keep us guessing between by not giving us a Brienne PoV. Hence, there is a good reason for why there is no Brienne or Jaime PoV other than that they are both undead.

I don't happen to think it's the most likely one. But unlike you, I'm willing to believe that there are other possible outcomes besides the one I happen to believe is most likely.

[Winterfelon]

What other injuries would you expect there to be?

You claimed it "rules out" her being a red zombie. How?

UnCat was not bitten by a zombie, and did not have greyscale, either.

UnCat was dead for 3 days. Dondarion had, like Brienne, only the injuries that were inflicted on him.

By "zero real evidence" you mean, of course, that this is a reader theory, and GRRM has not completely given away the show yet. But you claimed to have "ruled out" (which to me means disproven) this theory.

I said it rules it out for me - just my opinion - I claim nothing. :)

If you look at the text there's nothing substantial - yet - that supports unBrienne. If you look at what we actually see, what is described, there's no real basis for it in my view.

Is it possible?

Sure.

Do I see it as likey based on what we (think we) know?

Not right now! :)

I will happily doff my cap to thee, ser if it turns out you're right though. :thumbsup:

[Gemini]

Secondly, why would Uncat kill herself in order to pass her unlife on to Brienne? We've been led to believe that Beric had to die in order to pass the unlife onto Cat. We knew why Beric would do such a thing, he was bored of it all. But we know Uncat is still set on vengeance for all the Freys and pretty much anyone involved with the RW. Why would she kill herself before she accomplished this?

Agreed. And for that matter, why would she even think about resurrecting Jaime, as some people believe will happen? The only possible reason I can think of is that, assuming it wouldn't kill her to pass on the life to Jaime (which I think it would), she might bring him back just so she could kill him again. :stunned:

I guess maybe Brienne could bring him back? If you believe she's actually UnBrienne, which I don't.

I do however think it's quite possible that normal Brienne killed normal Jaime and now there's no more Kingslayer. I'm not fond of the idea--Jaime is my favorite character by far. Still, there's undeniably a sort of gruesome irony to it. This is Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer, son of Lord Tywin of Casterly Rock, twin brother to the queen of the Seven Kingdoms, somewhat secret father to two kings and a princess, Lord Commander of the Kingsguards... and he died off-screen. :leaving:

The argument against this is that it is too obviously what happened. Hopefully the truth is unveiled quickly in tWoW, which hopefully comes out soon... :bang:

[merchantkingpriest]

Also, I don't see Lady Stoneheart letting Jaime go.

She thinks Jaime is in some way responsible for the Red Wedding. This is another case of Cat going off half cocked. Only now, she's lost any sense of compassion.

lol good call. Cat was one of the most destructive good guys in the books just on the virtue of bad advice and that was before she died and went crazy.

[Fearsome Fred]

Errr, what? How do you know it was sword? It could, quite literally, have been anything.... anything.

Sure. She could have shouted "Rumplestiltskin" or "whore", but those don't seem to be very good theories.

The choice she were offered had code words assigned to it: "sword" or "noose". And why would she yell "noose"?

And how did you somehow jump to the conclusion that she will become the Shadow?

(1) It is reasonable to suppose that SOMEONE will become the Shadow with the face of the Hound.

(2) The assumption that that SOMEONE would be Sandor is no longer valid. Sandor has left the face of the Hound behind.

(3) Brienne is the best candidate for a Sandor impersonator. (If you disagree, name a better choice).

GRRM misleading us? Pretty clear? What?

That Brienne is out to kill, and indeed HAS killed, Jaime, is the obvious conclusion from the available evidence. Some here, who disagree with it, even argue that it is TOO obvious.

What we know is:

1. UnCat offers Brienne a choice: "sword" or "noose"; accept a mission to slay Jaime ("sword"), or be hanged ("noose").

2. She shouts "a word"; presumably not "noose".

3. She later is seen approaching Jaime, and lures him away from camp by telling him things we know are not true; that Sandor has Sansa & they can be found within a day's ride.

4. Jaime leaves with her, and does not return to camp. He has disappeared.

[Fearsome Fred]

But it's okay to be fringe! And it's certainly no reason to go about acting as if we are stupid for not believing it, and systematically ignoring all the arguments made against it.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I disagree with the implication that I have called my opponents "stupid"; and I disagree with the implication that I have ignored my opponent's arguments.

Could Jaime be killed offscreen? It would be a first as this has not yet happened to a PoV character in aSoIaF.

This is not much of an argument. Only 4 POVs are confirmed dead. One DID technically die offscreen. Two died on-screen but off-POV, and one died on-POV. (And, since the fake off-screen POV deaths were meant to keep us guessing, the author does not mean us to understand that any such rule exists).

Would Brienne kill Jaime unless she absolutely had to? This seems out of character and would require some explanation, hence why another Jaime or Brienne PoV seems likely.

And yet, the evidence suggests that she has already killed him. This may be out of character for Brienne; but you can hardly make that argument for UnBrienne. If anything, this sounds like an argument FOR my position.

I don't happen to think it's the most likely one. But unlike you, I'm willing to believe that there are other possible outcomes besides the one I happen to believe is most likely.

Seems to me I have accurately summarized our respective positions. I believe that Brienne has killed Jaime. You (like most people) don't think this has happened or will happen.

I never claimed any kind of absolute certainty for myself nor for anyone else.

[LadyKate63]

It seems to me that if Jaime was actually dead at Brienne's hand by order of Lady Stoneheart, UnCat would have wanted the whole world to know about it -- to know that he wasn't just missing but had been slain in vengeance for his offenses against her family.

So that seems a very improbable scenario to me.

[Doughbelly]

It seems to me that if Jaime was actually dead at Brienne's hand by order of Lady Stoneheart, UnCat would have wanted the whole world to know about it -- to know that he wasn't just missing but had been slain in vengeance for his offenses against her family.

So that seems a very improbable scenario to me.

Good point.