Merentha Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Which is why I prefer weak governments. If given power it uses that power not to aid people but to keep power or gather more power. Before you say corporations do the same thing recognize that they exist only at the sufferance of government. Without Government "corporations" as legal entities would not exist.A weak government wouldn't have any significant regulatory mechanisms or the power to enforce those regulations, no? In my opinion, if something isn't expressly forbidden and that injunction opposed, people will do it anyhow. Besides, if corporations don't exist as legal entities, that means there also can't be legal checks on their powers, right? In a very, very broad sense.edit: FLOW weren't you howling that the ACA created so much uncertainty that it was bad for the economy. Here we have the debt ceiling fight creating massively more uncertainty (and is taking money out of the economy as companies increase liquidity out of fear of what the Republican Terrorists will do the global economy) than the ACA could ever dream of creating. The ACA is law, that's not uncertain, it's just results in new requirements to abide by the law. threatening to deliberately plunge the world into a second Great Depression does create a lot of uncertainty.I would be shocked if he wasn't one of the ones howling. Also, the stock market is kind of on a pretty bad downturn, if you hadn't noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 FLOW weren't you howling that the ACA created so much uncertainty that it was bad for the economy.Yes, actually. I do believe I was. And I believe the response was that businesses don't care at all about that type of uncertainty. All they care about is demand, and what the government does is irrelevant. At least, that's what you guys were saying then.Here we have the debt ceiling fight creating massively more uncertainty (and is taking money out of the economy as companies increase liquidity out of fear of what the Republican Terrorists will do the global economy) than the ACA could ever dream of creating.No. See, that's where I disagree. The debt ceiling is essentially a ministerial issue with no substantive implications for the economy unless we actually default. Sign on the dotted line, and the issue disappears. And given that everyone expects that to happen, and that business don't make major decisions based on very short term issues, I think the effect is minimal.The ACA is law, that's not uncertain, it's just results in new requirements to abide by the law.But nobody has a fucking clue as to how it is going to work in practice. And apart from the pure uncertainty, businesses know that it is not going to be good for them becaue of different requirements, new compliance costs, etc. It isn't good even if they did know exactly what was coming, but the uncertainty just makes it worse. They know they'll pay more, they don't know how their employees will react, or what will happen to their premiums, etc. It is a massive change in the current system, and massive substantive change inherently carries uncertainty.More importantly, that is a long-term change that is going to be kicking in a couple of year and last for a very long time. It is not a ministerial problem eliminated with the stroke of a pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Sprunk Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Yes, actually. I do believe I was. And I believe the response was that businesses don't care at all about that type of uncertainty. All they care about is demand, and what the government does is irrelevant. At least, that's what you guys were saying then.So you're saying the other side was right back then and you were wrong, but now you agree? Or you were right and the others were wrong, but now you are wrong, too?Sorry, all this waffling is getting confusing. Take a break, FLoW. Defending the GOP looks exhausting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 So you're saying the other side was right back then and you were wrong,No. They were wrong and I was right. I was saying that long-term uncertainies and cost considerations matter, whereas they were saying the only thing businesses care about is demand.but now you agree?Nope. I've always said that long-term uncertainties and costs matter tremendously, but I've never agreed that short-term, ministerial issues do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Merentha,Which is why I prefer weak governments. If given power it uses that power not to aid people but to keep power or gather more power. Before you say corporations do the same thing recognize that they exist only at the sufferance of government. Without Government "corporations" as legal entities would not exist.Do you suppose that if government abandoned some of its powers, that corporations would simply allow that vacuum to exist? They would fill the vacuum. Corporations would take over whatever functions the government abdicates, and charge us for them. And they'd be liable to their shareholders instead of voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 DG,The people that control those corporations may create new governments or control those new Governments, but, if the corporations are declared disolved they would cease to be as he corporations exist at the sufferance of government. Shareholders power over the mechanisms of corporate existence is enforceable only via government mechanisms. Without goverment sponsorship of the corporate form control of corporate assets would devolve to those in immediate possession of those assets. Most shareholders would be screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Stone Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I hate to jump into this thread because I haven't really been following it, but I do have a question about this whole "crisis". The Fed gov't owes dollars. The Fed. gov't makes dollars. What's the problem? Instead of borrowing can't they just print money to pay off debts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Ken,Actually, I think the Federal Reserve, not the Federal Government, does that printing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Actually, I think the Federal Reserve, not the Federal Government, does that printing.Yes. And even if the government did pass legislation that enabled it to create new money, that would just cause rampant inflation, making the USD worthless (see Weimar Germany). We're in a bad situation, but not that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Stone Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Yes. And even if the government did pass legislation that enabled it to create new money, that would just cause rampant inflation, making the USD worthless (see Weimar Germany). We're in a bad situation, but not that bad.It's better to default? I'm not so sure about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Ken,Both options are extremely unpleasant to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Progressive Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Well, Obama could just order the Treasury to continue borrowing any way ....... and wait for the Repubs try to impeach him later.It seems to be quite a viable alternative at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempra Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I am a fan of the mint producing 2 one trillion dollar platinum coins as the solution to our problem. What are the odds one goes missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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