US Politics - Super-Congress Edition

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I fear that both sides may actually be dumb enough to let it happen. Seriously.

[Shryke]

Remember, what's important is whose fault it is, not what can and should be done to fix it.

Who's fault is is is actually fairly important.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Who's fault is is is actually fairly important.

It's the government's fault.

There. Simple.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Who's fault is is is actually fairly important.

And I'm happy to discuss it, just as soon as those buffoons come to a deal. Then we'll have the added bonus of criticizing the deal and assigning blame for the shitty parts of it.

[Shryke]

It's the government's fault.

There. Simple.

Uh, no. It's specific parts of the government's fault.

And once you figure out which, you can tailor your votes accordingly.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Uh, no. It's specific parts of the government's fault.

And once you figure out which, you can tailor your votes accordingly.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2006-54

44 out of 45 Democrats voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006.

Perhaps it was the People's Front of Judea, perhaps it was the Judean People's Front. That's what it looks like to those of us who don't play the game. I'm sure the Afghans can tell the difference.

[awesome possum]

It really is sad that Democrats and Republicans have put more energy and creativity into trying to blame the other side for this than in actually trying to do their jobs.

No matter how it turns out, the rabid right will still let themselves be teabagged by whichever nutjob promises to have the nicest pair of testicles while the left will likely only bother to get involved when they actually see their rights taken away. Independents will continue to decide who runs the country by either getting involved and voting (which means they're informed and thus will vote Democrat) or not (which means the teabags will rule the day).

Either way, we all lose. The only apparent difference these days is that the Democratic party wants to make it a long, drawn out death while the GOP wants to just put a bullet in the country's brain as soon as possible.

[The Progressive]

This is what happens when you negotiate with GOP terrorists.

Whatever the outcome is, you've already lost.

[Shryke]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2006-54

44 out of 45 Democrats voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006.

Perhaps it was the People's Front of Judea, perhaps it was the Judean People's Front. That's what it looks like to those of us who don't play the game. I'm sure the Afghans can tell the difference.

Well yeah, that's what happens when you are the minority party or when you know there's already enough votes to pass it. You get to make meaningless protest votes. (Just look at the Democrats who voted against the various health care reform things)

So yes, if you don't know anything about what happened, you don't know what's going on, but that's a tautology so I don't see your point.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

So yes, if you don't know anything about what happened, you don't know what's going on, but that's a tautology so I don't see your point.

Yes, yes, I know that the hoi polloi don't know anything about the distinct and important differences between you and the People's Front of Judea. You fight for important causes while they are in bed with the Romans and are horrifying traitors. I'm sure that their plan leads to certain destruction and their decisions are treasonous and evil, while you shall lead us into the glorious light and only hold positions of good faith.

Yawn.

[Shryke]

Yes, yes, I know that the hoi polloi don't know anything about the distinct and important differences between you and the People's Front of Judea. You fight for important causes while they are in bed with the Romans and are horrifying traitors. I'm sure that their plan leads to certain destruction and their decisions are treasonous and evil, while you shall lead us into the glorious light and only hold positions of good faith.

Yawn.

The Tormund Party: Go Ignorance!

I mean, actually finding out what's going on? How passe. I'd much rather use an analogy from Life of Brian to sound witty and clever.

[awesome possum]

Perhaps it was the People's Front of Judea, perhaps it was the Judean People's Front. That's what it looks like to those of us who don't play the game. I'm sure the Afghans can tell the difference.

The only thing worse than the PFJ and the JPF are the guys sitting on the side of the road muttering to themselves that they have all the answers if only someone, anyone would listen to them...

[Ormond]

Well yeah, that's what happens when you are the minority party or when you know there's already enough votes to pass it. You get to make meaningless protest votes. (Just look at the Democrats who voted against

So yes, if you don't know anything about what happened, you don't know what's going on, but that's a tautology so I don't see your point.

Perhaps KM thinks that "meaningless protest votes" because you are in the minority is precisely part of what's wrong with the present political system, and helped to get us into this mess.

On the other hand, for him it's probably just an easy potshot at the idea of government in general, reflecting his status as a super-libertarian near-anarchist.

However, it does seem to me personally that "protest votes" against something you really think is in the best interest of the country are an example of political game-playing, which is a big part of why so many people are disgusted with politicians in the first place. Such votes wouldn't seem to foster the spirit of co-operation and compromise that most of those "independents" would like to see in Congress.

[Shryke]

Perhaps KM thinks that "meaningless protest votes" because you are in the minority is precisely part of what's wrong with the present political system, and helped to get us into this mess.

On the other hand, for him it's probably just an easy potshot at the idea of government in general, reflecting his status as a super-libertarian near-anarchist.

However, it does seem to me personally that "protest votes" against something you really think is in the best interest of the country are an example of political game-playing, which is a big part of why so many people are disgusted with politicians in the first place. Such votes wouldn't seem to foster the spirit of co-operation and compromise that most of those "independents" would like to see in Congress.

Well, it depends on the protest vote really. But it's perfectly reasonable to be disgusted with the idea in general.

But the central issue is that what's going on is not a protest vote. A protest vote is when you vote against something that is going to pass anyway because you don't like every part of it for some reason but that if it wasn't going to pass without your vote, you would vote for it.. (ie - I want health care reform, but the current bill isn't liberal enough for me, so I'm voting against it because I can afford to. But if they really needed my vote to pass it, I would vote for it)

The issue right now is that the debt ceiling raise isn't going to pass anyway. If the GOP had enough votes to pass this thing and then some of their more extreme members were voting against it out of protest, there wouldn't be a problem. It would, in fact, be business as usual, just like every other debt ceiling raise and no one would notice or care.

These 2 situations are not the same.

If we are talking about assigning blame here, then there's only one reasonably party to assign it to: the one that decided that something that everyone (including them) admits needs to pass and has always passed, shouldn't this time.

Basically, if the GOP wasn't trying so desperately to not pass the debt ceiling raise, it would have already passed and we wouldn't have heard a thing about it. But they've decided to flirt with destroying the US economy and thus, we are here.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Perhaps KM thinks that "meaningless protest votes" because you are in the minority is precisely part of what's wrong with the present political system, and helped to get us into this mess.

If the protest vote is truly meaningless, what's the harm?

I think what got us into this mess is pretty simple. The electorate has refused to make the difficult choice between lower taxes and higher spending. So, it "compromised" by having both and living off the government credit card. At some point, a reckoning comes, and the country has to address the tension. We're approaching that point point now, and it's obviously going to cause a lot of heartache all around. After all, we've done everything we could to avoid making this decision, so it's obviously not one we relish.

[awesome possum]

At some point, a reckoning comes, and the country has to address the tension. We're approaching that point point now, and it's obviously going to cause a lot of heartache all around.

Approaching does not mean we're there. Trying to take the world economy hostage because we're "approaching" a point is madness. That's like driving a car and you see a sign that reads "Road Closed 10 Miles Ahead" so you decide to just drive it off the cliff now because hey, you're approaching that marker and simply looking for a Detour is too difficult (read: sane).

[Shryke]

If the protest vote is truly meaningless, what's the harm?

I think what got us into this mess is pretty simple. The electorate has refused to make the difficult choice between lower taxes and higher spending. So, it "compromised" by having both and living off the government credit card. At some point, a reckoning comes, and the country has to address the tension. We're approaching that point now, and it's obviously going to cause a lot of heartache all around. After all, we've done everything we could to avoid making this decision, so it's obviously not one we relish.

No, you aren't. The only reason it's an issue now if because the GOP decided it had to be an issue right now and have taken hostages to make sure it is an issue right now.

Even though right now is probably the worst time to make it an issue.

[The Progressive]

You would think that waiting for a few more months to argue the 2012 deficit/budget issue would be prudent and timely statesmanship.

Lol, well you would think that if your job isn't to destroy the economy.

[Galactus]

If the protest vote is truly meaningless, what's the harm?

I think what got us into this mess is pretty simple. The electorate has refused to make the difficult choice between lower taxes and higher spending. So, it "compromised" by having both and living off the government credit card. At some point, a reckoning comes, and the country has to address the tension. We're approaching that point point now, and it's obviously going to cause a lot of heartache all around. After all, we've done everything we could to avoid making this decision, so it's obviously not one we relish.

Again, this is the point where in a parlamentary system you could say "Okay, we're stuck. What should we do?" and throw the thing back to the voters and see if they have made up their minds.

But you can't do that in the US.

[The Progressive]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/07/how-obamas-slow-repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell-defused-the-controversy/242481/

So Obama repealed "don't ask don't tell" after the service chiefs certified that it won't affect military readiness or some other bullshits the rightwingers around here love to trot out, lol.