Why does everyone hate Catelyn Stark?

[Alexia]

Even Robb realized he needed to get her out of his sight so he could be allowed to make rational decisions.

Like sending Theon back to Balon, naturally. Or breaking an alliance with one of his biggest supporters to marry the first hot girl he runs across, of course.

:lmao:

[HouseLark]

I quite like Cat. She's similar to Cersei in that she's one of the stronger female characters from the older generation and like Cersei she is probably a bit frustrated with how little she can achieve because she isn't male. Cat accepted her position though whereas Cersei raged against hers.

Still, I can see why some don't like her. She kind of ballsed up with Jaime and was way too rash with Tyrion. I don't blame her for the way she is with Jon. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out if Jon and Stoneheart ever cross paths.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I like Catelyn. I find her to be a tragic and sympathetic figure. I don't require my favorite characters to be perfect and make perfect decisions all the time. Her dislike of Jon and her outburst to him was understandable in the circumstances considering her fragile emotional state and the risk Jon could pose to her children's inheritance (as well as a hurtful reminder that her husband was unfaithful).

Taking Tyrion was a mistake, but Tyrion put her in a tight spot, and she made a quick decision based on the information she had at the time that Tyrion tried to murder Bran. I do wonder if her sister was sane, how it might have turned out differently? Tyrion was starting to convince Catelyn that he wasn't involved, but Lysa went into hysterics, accused him of murdering her husband, and threw him in the dungeon. This gave little recourse to Tyrion but to call for a trial by combat. Somehow, I doubt the situation would have played out that way if Catelyn had been in charge of the procedures in the Eyrie as she objected to what Lysa did.

Like sending Theon back to Balon, naturally. Or breaking an alliance with one of his biggest supporters to marry the first hot girl he runs across, of course.

:lmao:

Not to mention putting Bolton in charge of so many troops, something which I recall Catelyn objected to as well.

[Joanna vander Poele]

I always feel people miss or ignore the crucial part that happens after Catelyn's infamous line to Jon:

"It should have been you," she said. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

Yeah, what a horrible bitch <_< How dare she not be a perfect saint while beside herself with grief over her crippled, possibly dying son. Not that I'm all gungho "Yeah, you go girl! You tell him he's a bastard!" all over it, but she was completely wrecked, and Jon was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I can get that.

Anyway, I love Cat. Yeah, she's imperfect as hell, but I don't feel the need for my favourite characters to be morally impeccable or make perfect decisions all the time (which would be ... boring? Why do people want this?). And attributing Ned's death to Catelyn telling him to go to King's Landing has got to be one of the most absurd leaps of logic out there <_< There's plenty of legitimate things to rag on Catelyn about without making stuff up.

And I gotta say, I LOVE Michelle Fairley's depiction of her. She's more Catelyn than Catelyn, seriously :wub:

ETA: What the frak Mellisandra, how did you say the exact thing I just did word-for-word...? Scary!!

[Asha—Not Yara!]

ETA: What the frak Mellisandra, how did you say the exact thing I just did word-for-word...? Scary!!

Great minds think alike. ;)

I wonder if people's perception of Catelyn's infamous "It should have been you" line would have different had it been a Catelyn PoV chapter instead of Jon? I'm still amazed people hold it against Catelyn, but a good number of people obviously do. I was rather relieved it was removed from the TV show. I also love Michelle Fairley's performance.

[wolverine]

Like sending Theon back to Balon, naturally. Or breaking an alliance with one of his biggest supporters to marry the first hot girl he runs across, of course.

:lmao:

He should have others around him who can advise him about such things. I guess I meant like arresting the queen's brother on word from a well known liar and releasing the most notorious oathbreakers on an oath to return her daughters.

Ultimately, why was sending Theon back such a poor decision? Theon planned to remain loyal to Robb from what I remember. It is his father who wanted to carve out his own kingdom again. Theon was not even a valuable hostage anymore as Balon seemed not to care one wit whether Theon lived or died (of course Robb could not know that at the time).

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Catelyn's instincts were dead on about Theon. She knew he wasn't to be trusted, and she was proven correct. Had Robb paid attention to her misgivings, then Winterfell most likely would have remained safe.

[Alexia]

Ned: Catelyn, from this day forth I want a close watch kept on Theon Greyjoy.

Robb: Mom, I'm sending Theon back to Balon as my envoy.

Robb had no way to know that Balon didn't care if Theon lived or died. Also, the attack on Winterfell (which cost Robb everything) would never have happened without releasing Theon.

[wolverine]

Ned: Catelyn, from this day forth I want a close watch kept on Theon Greyjoy.

Robb: Mom, I'm sending Theon back to Balon as my envoy.

Robb had no way to know that Balon didn't care if Theon lived or died. Also, the attack on Winterfell (which cost Robb everything) would never have happened without releasing Theon.

Didn't Theon race there to capture Winterfell ahead of his sister? Or would there never have been a plan to attack Winterfell without Theon? The Red Wedding cost Robb everything. Killing a few people and burning a castle a thousand leagues from the fighting did not.

[Stinky Steward]

First off, as I wrote above, I like Catelyn's character a lot, for all her imperfections. Re: her treatment of Jon,

Yeah, what a horrible bitch <_< How dare she not be a perfect saint while beside herself with grief over her crippled, possibly dying son. Not that I'm all gungho "Yeah, you go girl! You tell him he's a bastard!" all over it, but she was completely wrecked, and Jon was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I can get that.

I can "get" it, too, and also doing otherwise would be out of character. The reason I find her action mean and selfish, however, is that even in the moment of shared grief she doesn't recognize that Jon & she both love Bran, and that acknowledging this may be a consolation to both. You're right in claiming that possibly it was just the wrong moment for that. Still, she puts her own personal dislike of Jon above their shared love of Bran, and comes off as selfish & possessive rather than mature & inclusive in the situation where both kinds of reactions are understandable. Which is why the scene is so powerfully contentious.

And I gotta say, I LOVE Michelle Fairley's depiction of her. She's more Catelyn than Catelyn, seriously :wub:

Yup. I like Jennifer Ehle and I was a little sorry when I heard she dropped out, but Fairley does the job beautifully and I cannot imagine any other Catelyn anymore :)

[David Selig]

The arrest of Tyrion was completely stupid since she was basing it on the fact that LF said the dagger was Tyrion's won from a bet with LF. How dumb would Tyrion need to be to arm some retarded killer with his own easily identifiable dragon hilt dagger?

Just look in the crime news, there are countless cases in which reasonably smart people have been caught due to committing dumber mistakes than sending someone with an identifiable knife to do the deed..The notion that smart people don't make dumb mistakes when committing crimes is completely bogus.

And it's not just LF's testimony which convinced Catelyn about the dagger - Varys, the most knowledgeable guy in Westeros, heard the story and didn't object. What was more likely from Catelyn's PoV - that both LF and Varys had reasons to create a conflict between the Starks and Lannisters and tricked her, or that Tyrion is arrogant enough he sent someone with an identifiable knife to do the deed, confident he can get away with it?

Didn't Theon race there to capture Winterfell ahead of his sister? Or would there never have been a plan to attack Winterfell without Theon?

No, the other Ironborn commanders knew they'd never be able to hold Winterfell so they targeted smaller castles closer to the sea. The Winterfell capture was Theon's idea only.

[East of the Wood]

Yeh, you're right. Most people don't like her because of her treatment of Jon. I first started to hate her at the "it should have been you" statement. Jon came to say goodbye to his brother whom he loved and Catelyn just had to have a snipe. I understand she was in mourning but so were Jon and the other Starks to a lesser degree.

The second was when she agreed on a deal with Lord Frey before telling Robb of those terms. It wasn't her place to do that, she was only meant to be the messenger.

Releasing Jaime was amazingly shortsighted, as was jumping on Tyrion without any proof. I could go on and on but I'll only end up in a horrible mood!

with the exception of Jon but she would be right to treat him alot worse than she did, in my mind).

Why? It's hardly Jon's fault that his father went off and screwed some other woman. Now I wouldn't expect her to love him and treat him like one of her own but there's no need to be bitter after, what, 14 years. Can she not see how much her sons and daughters love Jon? Time to get over it now Catelyn and just deal with it.

[Alexia]

Didn't Theon race there to capture Winterfell ahead of his sister? Or would there never have been a plan to attack Winterfell without Theon? The Red Wedding cost Robb everything. Killing a few people and burning a castle a thousand leagues from the fighting did not.

There never would have been a plan to attack Winterfell without Theon. Asha was going after a different castle.

And yes, taking Robb's castle and killing his brothers cost him his kingdom. Robb Stark, the King without a kingdom. This was being commented on even in ASOS.

[Birdsong65]

Cat is a great character, and my personal theory is that most of the Cat hate comes from hardcore Jon fans.

This.

And I would add that it was Jon Aryn's death that started the snowball at the point where the House of Stark became involved, which had very little to do with Cat. Prior to that, it would seem the Starks were content to remain apart, doing whatever they do in the North awaiting winter. It wasn't until King's Landing invaded, so to speak, Winterfell that the shit started to roll.

As for the ever quoted "It should have been you" statement...Jon, really? That was moment you decided to nut up?

IMHO, this moment, short as it is, sums up the festering entitlement issues inherent in Jon (wanting WF, yadda), and is an example of his selfishness, inasmuch as it shows Catelyn's suppossed hatred of him. And the additional information regarding her body wracked with sobbing, and his never having seen her cry, suggests both her frailty and his bullying her in the face of it, as he chooses not to leave, but remains true to his original intent of seeing Bran, despite to obvious inappropriate nature of the act. It also suggests that he stayed with Bran despite her, and not entirely because of his deep love for the boy.

For all the wondering about why so many hate Cat, I wonder why so many love Jon? YMMV

And, Michelle Fairley is AWESOME!! Even when I read, it is MF's face that comes for her POV chapters. Ah, the power of television. I like her now....it will be shame later, though.

[Rikard]

Catelyn as catalyst :laugh:. Considering all the plot twists for which people hold her responsible the story would be quite tame without her. Two I haven’t seen yet are poorly supervising Bran’s playtime and reading crazy sister Lysa’s crowmail before burning it.

[Auska]

I for one like her because she's a symphatic character even if no superwoman by any chance. She's got alot of flaws but I also see that she's got alot of virtues like dutiful, loyal, hardworkinig, loving (with the exception of Jon but she would be right to treat him alot worse than she did, in my mind).

Seriously? For the horrible crime of being born? :(

…

I like Catelyn, the character. I don't like Catelyn, the “person”.

[The hairy bear]

No but she could have been kinder and more empathetic to someone she had considered a "friend". She doesn't care about anyone elses feelings except her own while simultaeneously pretending to be the "good guy".

Yes, she should care for the feelings of others. For instance, she should care for the ones of his husband to be, who might have something to object with her paying a lovely visit to a rival suitor that has just challenged him.

Seriously, it escapes to me how it can be tried to put the blame of Littlefingers foolish, disrepectful and borderline psycothic actions to Cat.

I do not like her because of Bran and Rickon. i mean what kind of mother will leave her nearly 8 year old and his very young brother to go to KL to find some stupid proof.

Surprisingly, this is not a criticism that's never laid at Ned's door, who also left home to go to KL. It seems to me that it stems from the belief that a woman's place is not a war council.

Anyway, Catelyn's couldn't be with Robb and Bran/Rickon at the same time. Are you arguing that Cat should abandon the sixteen year old son leading armies in wartime and go back at home to spend some quality time with the young boys that already have a septon, a maester and the whole Staff caring for them?

I guess I meant like arresting the queen's brother on word from a well known liar and releasing the most notorious oathbreakers on an oath to return her daughters.

Well-known liar? Exactly "who" knew Littlefinger was a liar? King Robert, Eddard Stark, Jon Arryn, Lysa,... All those trusted Littlefinger, and it's OK. But suddenly Cat does and she's dumb.

And with Jaime: we've been in his head an he intended to honor the promise. So it seems Catelyn was right here.

It's very easy to judge things with the benefit of multiple povs and forsight.

Ultimately, why was sending Theon back such a poor decision? Theon planned to remain loyal to Robb from what I remember. It is his father who wanted to carve out his own kingdom again. Theon was not even a valuable hostage anymore as Balon seemed not to care one wit whether Theon lived or died (of course Robb could not know that at the time).

We can't know whether Balon would have attacked the North if Theon had still been with Robb or not. But at least Catelyn proved a better judge of characters than Robb. You can try to dismiss her value, but the point remains that all the council she gave Robb was good. And we could even say that if Robb had brought her mother with him to the West, the Jeyne affair would have been prevented.

[the Italian]

I personally don't appreciate Cat, but simply because she gives me the idea of ​​being a person of little interest.

I mean if I met someone like her in my life, she would leave me completely indifferent.

[Chirios]

Catelyns problem isn't that she isn't clever. It's that she finds it extremely difficult to make rational decisions when her family is in clear danger, usually at exactly the point where she needs to be making rational decisions.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Catelyn's release of Jaime and Robb's marrying Jeyne were both triggered by their grief over the supposed deaths of Bran and Rickon. Catelyn and Robb both make really stupid decisions because of this, but it seems to me that Catelyn gets way more heat for basically doing something very similar to what Robb did.