[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[cern]

I feel Maugham is referring to skipping as scanning, rather than wilfully missing entire chapters. I've never found GRRM's prose to be particularly beautiful to read, but I love his plots; this at time inevitably leads to scanning until I get to the nitty-gritty plot progression that I crave :D

[Draakon]

It annoys me that so many people don't get the Quentyn chapters.

They are there to remind us of the "best laid plans fo mice and men..." nature of this series. The traditional arc would have Quentyn tame a Dragon and win Dany's heart. That isn't what GRRM's world is all about.

I actually approved his death and failure. Errr.. I mean storywise - nothing against his character. But most his chapters were just pretty boring to me. Maybe I appreciate them more on re-read tho'.

[ZombieWife]

After reading some replies, a few things stand out:

1. I did not, by any stretch, hate this book. I do have quibbles with it, but overall, it was lovely.

2. I would have actually preferred for AFFC and ADWD to be combined and split somehow differently. But, that's my aesthetic and nothing more.

3. Much talk of Martin and his short-story writing ability. Many of this chapters felt like miniature short stories. There was a LOT of retelling of facts in the chapters, reminding us who is who, etc. If you read many chapters on their own, they could stand alone as short stories by structure alone (especially with the descriptions and imagery). I find that VERY interesting.

4. I went through spurts of being unable to put it down and reading at a languid pace.

5. I think Quenten's role will be boosted in importance in the next book. How will Dorne react to all of this? Will they be so open to aiding the Targaryens now? Who knows. His presence may have more ripples than we expect.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Well, for me I read it at a break neck speed and the chapters people complain about, mainly Tyrion, Jon, and Quentyn I enjoyed and wouldn't have dreamed of skipping. I do agree it's not as tightly paced as the earlier books were, but that didn't interfere with my enjoyment. If GRRM wants to finish the series in two books though, he's definitely going to have to return to the more tightly paced pattern of the first books.

[Suldog]

It's not exactly reassuring that he finds ASoIaF such a chore to write. What with him getting older, his schedule being so full and money no longer being an issue, there's going to be less and less reason for him to carry on writing.

:crying:

I would bet money on this. Which sucks. At the rate the story is going, with other projects, HBO, traveling, and just enjoying his success, GRRM will need to be writing into his 80's. I just don't see it. He loves the story, the characters, the world of ASOIAF - which is why he does side projects like comic books, is so exited about HBO, etc. I don't think he's tired of Westeros and its people at all, he loves it.

But actually sitting down and pounding out books for another 10-12-15 more years? When the last 2 books were such a struggle to write for him? I don't see it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I just see him working on it a little less and less over time, and ultimately never finishing it.

Which he has every right to do - but I'm going to hate not knowing how the story ends.

[Raventhal]

GRRM kind of got into the Robert Jordan realm in this book. Too much description, too many characters plots running in place. Tyrion's chapters were a travel guide of Essos. Frustrating slow pace events that could have happened off screen. Some things off screen that should have been shown.

Meereen was a painful read. Dany is in quagmire and Essos is going to invade. Dany gets married to stop quagmire and invasion. Dany has sex with and moons over sellsword. Dany is on the verge of being betrayed anyways. Dany has a suitor from Dorne. Dany leaves with Drogon. Barristan arrest the king. Dragons unleashed by dorne suitor and burn Meereen. Tyrion is slave on outskirts and joins sellswords. Did we need 2000 pages to tell that story?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Meereen was a painful read. Dany is in quagmire and Essos is going to invade. Dany gets married to stop quagmire and invasion. Dany has sex with and moons over sellsword. Dany is on the verge of being betrayed anyways. Dany has a suitor from Dorne. Dany leaves with Drogon. Barristan arrest the king. Dragons unleashed by dorne suitor and burn Meereen. Tyrion is slave on outskirts and joins sellswords. Did we need 2000 pages to tell that story?

Seems to me that GRRM decided to try to untie the infamous Meerneese Knot rather than just slicing the fucker in half.

[iamthedave]

Seems to me that GRRM decided to try to untie the infamous Meerneese Knot rather than just slicing the fucker in half.

I personally agree with the theory that the Meereenese knot was actually maneouvring all the key players into position at the same time without any of them arriving too early. ADWD is basically an over-arching tale of finding a million ways to delay people from getting somewhere.

At times, reading it, I could practically see Martin sitting at his desk and thinking 'now what could slow them down THIS time?'

[Draakon]

But actually sitting down and pounding out books for another 10-12-15 more years? When the last 2 books were such a struggle to write for him? I don't see it. I really hope I'm wrong, but I just see him working on it a little less and less over time, and ultimately never finishing it.

I think, in the end, HBO may well be the reason why he has to finish the series. I'm pretty sure that he does not have 6 years until HBO reaches The Winds of Winter (however they split the books and deal with aFfC+aDwD) - unless they cancel the series. While they of course can't force him to write faster, he probably has his own financial etc. interests in TV-series.

[vilator]

ADWD is basically an over-arching tale of finding a million ways to delay people from getting somewhere.

this should be the books tagline.

[coldfeet]

"He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey. Tyrion shooed them off with the back of his hand and drank deep. The taste was so cloying that it was all he could do to keep it down. The second cup went down easier, however. Even so, he had no appetite, and when Illyrio offered him a bowl of blackberries in cream he waved it off."

Hey it's blackberry season! Don't you subscribe to Better Homes and Hodors?

[Suldog]

I think, in the end, HBO may well be the reason why he has to finish the series. I'm pretty sure that he does not have 6 years until HBO reaches The Winds of Winter (however they split the books and deal with aFfC+aDwD) - unless they cancel the series. While they of course can't force him to write faster, he probably has his own financial etc. interests in TV-series.

If it does get finished, I actually see him finishing it through HBO, not books. If the series continues on HBO for long enough, and keeps getting picked up, I can totally see GRRM deciding to just finish it through HBO. After all, he's a screenwriter too. He would probably write more episodes and act as a adviser to make sure the story ends the way he wants it to and that the HBO writers have the answers they need to get there. It would be a lot less work and he would enjoy it a lot more.

Just a theory, but I can see that happening.

[Other May I?]

A bitch to read? Hardly.

It was a very easy read, and (in my opinion) a highly enjoyable one.

[Axon]

I thought it was a great book. The bottom line is that there are too many cliffhangers at the end, so there's a feeling of dissatisfaction. There are plenty of descriptions of food in GOT (Ned's boring ass depiction of sweetened ice milk springs to mind), it's just that something crazy happens at the end, so it seems like a satisfactory novel. There is a logical point of ending.

In ADWD, the ending is just not satisfying. Our favorite characters are stumbling around aimlessly or dead/dying, while other characters (whom we have little investment in) are doing most of the heavy lifting.

As to ADWD's "readability," I found I couldn't pry myself away from the Northern chapters, the Bran chapters, or the Arya chapters. I also enjoyed the Selmy chapters, the inadvertent humor of Victarion, and about half of Tyrion. Dany only had one or two good chapters for me. Obviously, not everything can be the House of the Undying, but damnnnnn.

[Leuf]

My interests are in Westeros, not in Mereen.

Frankly, this is your decision, your problem, and your loss.

FWIW, I did a fair bit of skipping of paragraphs in the first books when there was a whole paragraph dedicated to what random knights and their sigils happened to be standing in the room or what food was being served. I skipped whole chapters in Feast. I didn't skip a word in Dance. Not because every word was important but because I went into it with a different attitude of letting the story go where it will rather than rushing to find out what happens.

[BRETTASOIAF]

If only GRRM had consulted you before writing the book, so that the characters you personally like were featured more prominently and those you didn't could have been skipped. A true shame.

I think you misunderstand me. I was really looking foward to those characters, and glad that they were written into the book, what I mean is after finishing the book I can say the stories told for those characters didn't live up to what I thought they would be. Wasn't saying that GRRM should only write about the characters that I like, what happened is he wrote about the characters I liked, and the story for them just didn't get to where I personally wanted/thought they would in this book.

[mouse]

I wonder how many people who disliked this book because of a perception that "nothing happens" are heavy readers of non-fantasy. From my perspective, tons of things happen in ADWD. But, then, I will spend my time reading, say, a novel in which a character muses on life, death, and whether to leave her husband for 400 pages, and truly nothing happens, and still enjoy that novel immensely.

Do I think the novel was perfect? No, I think it could have used some editing. But I truly mean some. I was bothered by repetitious use of phrases. (I know others keep citing "words are wind," but what bothered me was the sheer number of instances of the phrases "little and less" and "much and more.") I also just could not get into the prologue. But the editing I feel the book could have used might have cut it down by, say, three pages.

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

I read somewhere that (part of) the Meereenese knot was that Q had originally arrived much earlier, but this didn't play out right and had to be rewritten. That makes some sense to me with the where the balance of chapters ended up - we hear much more of his travels, and Dany is deprived of the much more substantial marriage dilemma. I think trying to decide between buying peace in Meereen with a trader, buying war in Westeros with Dorne, or buying her inexplicable crush's services in the sack would have made for a more substantial 'non-event'. That part of the story was rewritten, but the balance/focus of the chapters wasn't changed to account for it.

I've nothing against exploring the east. Having kicked off with Pentos and introduced us to the Dothraki, Dany took us across the red waste, found Quarth (where if anything there was call for more information on all these rival powers except in that it was quite nice have hints of a greater world which we only saw in how it related to their lust for dragons) and then we headed off, sacked Astapor, played with Yunkai and settled in Meereen. That was the first 3 books. And a lot happened along the way, large and small things, masses of character development - not just Dany but Jorah, Viserys, Barristan (evetually) and all the folk over there. For some reason or another I couldn't get involved in the new power struggle. The masters in their pyramids were only ever a list of names. Reznak, Hidzhar, Shakaz, for the most part could have been the same person - I certainly didn't identify with them as well as with the members of the small council. A lot of this is because we didn't have another point of view, and Dany was struggling with the compromises required for peace, and not doing so in a particularly interesting, progressive or original way. The fact that her dragons were more harm than good should have been a more than a vague rare notion. We get no information on how she thinks she might deal with the siege of the city, it's all subsumed into the 'intrigue' of the deaths inside the city. If Martin's intention is to show that she actually is a young girl who knows nothing and has less depth than the Dothraki sea then I don't need to read about it over and over again.

I enjoyed Tyrion until he got to sea and felt contracually obliged to join in Penny's farce and what's more to tell us about it. Victarion I didn't mind, though aside from reminding us he's there he was clearly part of building our awareness of the red priests. The odd touches to show that life still went on south of the trident? Fine. The only possible complaint stems from the decision to split the books, the chapters themselves were well written and interesting. Arya, as always, a delight, and at great way to view Braavos.

Which leaves the North. Jon started out well, had more interesting internal dialogue over how to handle his power and the situation, even if it was a repetitive "Should I let this group of wildings through?" It seemed to be building to something, and I didn't expect that that something had to be in this book. He suffered a bit as he himself noted for not having anyone interesting, sorry, I mean experienced, left at the wall to talk to. Aemon, Sam, Jeor, Donal and all his friends who died or ahve otherwise absented themselves from the narrative. And then, just after getting 4000 wildings through, and onside with his passionate speech, we get his inexplicable demise in the middle of the castle with everyone around as a lesson in the futility of trying to understand a giant. If speculation is correct that this is all part of some cunning rebirth then with this last chapter Martin managed very impressively to subjugate character, setting, story-telling and all reason and sense in order to advance the plot. Couldn't he at least ahve given some proper indication that there was tension building? Maybe of course it all suffered for following immediately on from the arrival of The Letter. As an event out of sight, it served. But this was an event we'd been building up to. The Freys and the Manderlys. Ramsey and Roose. Theon's excellent chapters finally leading to his meeting with this sister. Ok, Stannis marching 100 leagues, getting caught in the snow, still being caught in the snow, wait there's a warhorn he's crept up on us, oh no, he's still 3 days away in the snow, oh look here's this fascinating development with the Iron Bank. Then nothing for 300 pages. Then that letter. Davos of course got himself an interesting mission, best not hear about him for the rest of the book. And Bran finally completed his 2(3? 4?) book long journey and, well, sat on a tree and wasn't mentioned again.

So sure, it will probably work fine when the whole series is available. But as a book in its own right (or combined with AFFC), notwithstanding the phrasal and conceptual repetition both within and between characters, it seems indulgent, careless, unbalanced and really not near as enjoyable to read as it could or should have been.

[The King's Foot]

ADWD was great. I would rank it #1 or if not a close #2 to ASOS. Frankly, I believe we're seeing a reflection of today's instant-gratification culture in these comments. The joy is in the journey people! If GRRM had wrapped up everything in a neat bow and canceled books 6 and 7 would you really be happier? Honestly? I devour every single word and wish Dance was twice as long but ended in the exact same place. I wish it took me months to read instead of a week - a week when I forced myself to not real all night and had to work during the day.

I believe, and have stated in other threads, that George will easily get this story wrapped in two more books. However, I wish it were more!! More GRRM is not a bad thing.

Part of the problem here is this is a middle-of-the-series book that we all had to wait forever for. They hype and the buildup led many, I think, to believe all existing loose ends would be tied up, b/c they can't stand the thought of waiting another 6 years with the same unanswered questions. Too bad, though. This was always going to be a setup book. TWoW will be a rocket ride compared to this, and it should be - George will need to get a lot of unresolved questions resolved so everything can be focused on the climax in ADOS.

Specifically re:Meereen. Yes Dany has been there too long. No I don't think it's a damning sign of author incompetence. To me anyway, the whole sequence adds depth to Dany's character. She keeps wishing she can live this idealized life - everyone loves her and praises her for ending slavery and she gets to be with the hunky boy and all is well. Instead, she gets a heeping helping of sh*t and figures out that sometimes a dragon is better than a council.

Loved the book. All this complaining makes me sad and makes me feel disconnected from other readers b/c I simply can't identify with hating on this series.

[A Song Of Vice And Ire]

TWoW will be a rocket ride compared to this, and it should be - George will need to get a lot of unresolved questions resolved so everything can be focused on the climax in ADOS.

What happened to the joy being in the journey? No-one here hates the series, but if you can see that the balance of this book means that things will have to race along in the next two books then congratulations, you do understand the other readers. Some resolution before the end of the series is, probably, necessary. A bit more of it here would have left more space to make the action to come richer. As it is, it feels like we've just had the second part of a book that had to be split into 3, and as this thread identifies there are people who find the difficulties in writing are reflected in the reading.