[ADwD Spoilers] Perfumed Seneschal

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My problem with the boat theory is, well how is the boat going to be dangerous to Dany? It seems unlikely that the danger is the passengers because she gets separate warnings about those. I don't see the plague victims line - Meereen already has a grey mare problem, if not from refugees then from plague victims being catapulted into the city.

And what about the boat? Severely storm damaged then boarded by slavers. Did they just abandon it, or did they tow it to shore? In either case how is it going to be a risk to Dany? (who in any case is currently sailing on the Dothraki sea).

Maybe there's more to the boat that hasn't been revealed yet. Maybe it was salvaged. Maybe something else was on it that is separately dangerous. The warning about the ship predates the plague actually hitting the city, right? It could be contaminated with greyscale, a different disease from the pale mare.

As to your question about how it's going to be a risk to Dany, remember the difference between a prophecy and a warning, like Black Crow has explained several times. Coming also doesn't necessarily have to equal arriving. It's possible that Quaithe saw a possible future where the ship posed a danger, and that future is now out of play (which, like I said, could result in Dany worrying about something that will never arrive, at the expense of practical worrying about actual danger). Or it's possible that we haven't seen the last of the ship. I think people are jumping the gun by assuming that all the answers/dangers would have already been revealed.

I just can't think of any other reason to name the ship that (if it's a joke/red herring, it's almost too subtle), and the idea that it actually is Reznak (who, to be honest, seems fairly harmless, if useless), the guy Dany herself suspects, makes me want to bash my head against a wall. The other symbols are evident enough as it is. I'd like at least one of the "candidates" to not be bash-you-over-the-head obvious.

[Ser Pink of Floyd]

If it is indeed a ship, could it not be possible that this ship is trying to thwart Dany by trying to sink her when she finally has enough ships of her own to sail onto Westeros. Perhaps its Captain is one we have met before?

[House Martell]

I just can't think of any other reason to name the ship that (if it's a joke/red herring, it's almost too subtle)

while I accept your overall argument (although I don't think it the boat), how is stinky steward too subtle? Perfumed Seneschal = Stinky Steward (not subtle)...

[FanTasy]

I think it is the ship, why else the emphasis on translating its name? The emphasis is either meant to fill in the warning, or it is meant as a redherring :bang:

But I think the warning was about the coming to Meereen of who was on the Stinky Steward.

[Lummel]

...

As to your question about how it's going to be a risk to Dany, remember the difference between a prophecy and a warning, like Black Crow has explained several times. Coming also doesn't necessarily have to equal arriving. It's possible that Quaithe saw a possible future where the ship posed a danger, and that future is now out of play (which, like I said, could result in Dany worrying about something that will never arrive, at the expense of practical worrying about actual danger). Or it's possible that we haven't seen the last of the ship. I think people are jumping the gun by assuming that all the answers/dangers would have already been revealed.

I like the subtly of Black Crow's approach, (and it might deal with the stallion who mounts the world type problems quite neatly) but it leaves us in the same boat of having to wait for futher volumes to be sure that this was a potential danger that has been avoided or not!

I agree regarding reznak and your last point. I'm still more inclined to think that it could be Varys which would link into the Varys supports the Blackfyres theory (and is therefore a threat to Dany if she wants to rule on her own terms), but it's a stretch at present to describe himas a seneschal or a steward.

I just can't think of any other reason to name the ship that (if it's a joke/red herring, it's almost too subtle), and the idea that it actually is Reznak (who, to be honest, seems fairly harmless, if useless), the guy Dany herself suspects, makes me want to bash my head against a wall. The other symbols are evident enough as it is. I'd like at least one of the "candidates" to not be bash-you-over-the-head obvious.

I think it is the ship, why else the emphasis on translating its name? The emphasis is either meant to fill in the warning, or it is meant as a redherring :bang:

But I think the warning was about the coming to Meereen of who was on the Stinky Steward.

Why not a red herring / deliberately obscure? After all how many characters are now candidates for AA reborn?

[FanTasy]

Why not a red herring / deliberately obscure? After all how many characters are now candidates for AA reborn?

Jon, Dany, Rhaego, Jaime, Stannis, Euron, Davos, Brienne. And probably Tommens kittens,all three of them. :cool4:

[Black Crow]

You missed Black Balerion, the warrior cat who rules the smoked and salted cellars in the Red Keep and scratches dragon bones to keep his claws sharp

[House Martell]

You missed Black Balerion, the warrior cat who rules the smoked and salted cellars in the Red Keep and scratches dragon bones to keep his claws sharp

no no, not a possible AA. A candidate for "the great Other" though...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

while I accept your overall argument (although I don't think it the boat), how is stinky steward too subtle? Perfumed Seneschal = Stinky Steward (not subtle)...

By "too subtle," I mean that it's not as bash-you-over-the-head obvious as Dany thinking to herself, "Hey I think Reznak is the perfumed seneschal." I'm more inclined to think that the no-shit statement (Reznak) is the red herring and the more subtle statement (the ship) is the real deal. I also think it's subtle because most people are probably expecting the perfumed seneschal to be a person and aren't paying attention to the ship or what its name means. Tyrion learns the loose translation from Valyrian, but the reader has to pull a thesaurus themselves and translate "stinky steward" to "perfumed seneschal." We've all done it because we've dissected the hell out of everything, but I bet that many, if not most, casual readers never thought twice about it. Sort of like how we've all convinced ourselves that R+L=J is bloody obvious when it isn't, really.

If it's the real deal, then it's a clever inclusion that requires some active thinking and analysis, and it won't be obvious to everyone, retaining some element of surprise. If it was meant to be a red herring, then it likely landed with a thud because it probably flew over most people's heads. It's possible to obscure a "real" item, but part of what makes a red herring a red herring is its obviousness — if it doesn't actually draw our attention away from the real deal, what good is it? Reznak works as a red herring because Martin is actively using him to draw our attention away from the actual PS entity. And I don't think the ship is that obvious. So that's what I meant when I said it was "too subtle" to be anything but legitimate.

ETA: My main motive for discounting Varys is that, depending on how you view the mummer's dragon, he'd sort of be counted twice — as the mummer and as the perfumed seneschal. I also think that Reznak and Varys are to the perfumed seneschal what Margaery and Dany are to the "younger queen." Reznak and Margaery are noted as suspects in-story, while readers are somehat led to think that it's Varys and Dany, respectively, and it'll actually end up being a double bluff.

[Black Crow]

no no, not a possible AA. A candidate for "the great Other" though...

Explains everything. Arya is AA, Needle is Lightbringer and next time she catches that darn cat...

[Bajaz]

Many of you are saying that Reznak mo Reznak is too much obvious

perfumed seneschall it cant be him.

I have to ask myself is not Aegon even more obvious because he is only dragon in plain sight.

[Ladywhiskers]

The sun is a major part of House Martell's sigil. But it is only half the sigil. GRRM has gone to great lengths to point out the fact that House Martell represents the unity of Nymeria (the sun) and Mors Martell (the spear), and he's associated the ruling Prince of Dorne, Quentyn's father, with the spear, not the sun. Lady Mellario has not been associated with a sun. She has separated herself from Dorne and the Martells, she does not sit on Nymeria's throne in Sunspear, and Norvos, we're told, is not known for its sun.

Victarion isn't called the kraken's son. Tyrion isn't the lion's son. Why would Quentyn be the sun's son? Dany assumes he fits the prophecy, but readers have more information than Dany about Dorne and House Martell's sigil. In any case, since when do characters in this series properly interpret prophecies?

By the time they arrive, Tyrion isn't the lion's son--he's the lion. Tywin is dead, and Jaime is disqualified, hence, Tyrion is in fact the head of House Lannister, even though no one acknowledges this. Balon is dead, and Theon gelded, therefore either Euron or Victarion is the kraken, (not the kraken's son.) But Quentyn isn't the king, in fact he's not even the direct heir--Arianne is. So "sun's son" fits him pretty well.

[idiotking]

Okay, I may be a noob on this forum, but I cannot *believe* no one else has realized that the "Perfumed Seneschal" is going to be:

Archmaester Theobald.

I know, I know -- there has been no mention of his odor yet. But there doesn't need to be at this point (why assume that every last detail of every last clue is already in front of us when 2 books remain?). The ship, and Reznak, are so obvious and bluntly put forward I can't imagine them being anything OTHER than red herrings. Here's why it's the Seneschal of the Citadel:

1. We know that the Maesters -- with a few exceptions like Marwyn and Aemon -- are trying to create a world WITHOUT magic. That includes Dragons. There's a reason why Samwell was whisked aside by Marwyn and told to keep quiet... and especially to the Seneschal, Theobald, who we can therefore assume is not only in charge of the Citadel, but also is part of the force of Maesters crafting their "new world order", as it were. Why would you "beware" anyone on the ship, OR the ship, OR Reznak, when far more dangerous foes merit only a "do not trust"? The order of maesters in Westeros is far more powerful, and potentially dangerous, than any of the other suspected PFs.

2. "Remember the Undying" and "Beware the PF" come at the very end of the prophecy, after all the others have come. Clearly, to meet the Seneschal Dany will first have to make it to Westeros with her Dragons. Believe me, that part of the Prophecy is near the endgame. There's (at least) two big books left, folks. Don't think 10 chapters ahead, think 100.

3. PERHAPS it could be Walgrave instead, for this reason: he WAS the one chosen by lot to be Seneschal... oh, and his assistant is now a Faceless Man. What's that line right before the "beware"? Oh yeah... "Remember the Undying". Now, we know the price of Faceless Men is astronomical. Who could afford one to kill a prominent and highly protected person? Why, perhaps the Warlocks, no?

4. Or maybe the Faceless Man in the Citadel will find a way to take the place of the Seneschal himself, and those two will be bound up. I don't want to think too much about a possible connection between the Faceless Man and "Remember the Undying", since that's pure and total speculation, and Pyat Pree could well pop up somewhere in TWoW or later... That's just a possible connection... but I think the reasoning behind the Seneschal of the prophecy being the Seneschal of the Citadel is sound as a bell.

Also, for what it's worth, I think it's pretty obvious the Mummer's Dragon is Varys. Varys was, and in many ways still is, a mummer. Aegon is Varys's Targaryen for sure... and he might not even be a real one (remember, the only one evidence we have that he was switched is Varys's own word...).

[austinthebookworm]

the ship Tryion, Jorah and Penny go on translates to Perfumed Seneschal, or "Stinky Steward" as Tyrion puts it

[Scaeva]

IAs I read the chapter the thought that he may have the Targ curse crept into my head. And I suspect he's the genuine article since he has the Blood of the Dragon (the hair and eyes) and secondly I don't think Old Griff would tolerate the subterfuge.

I agree that Jon Connington would never willingly go along with any plot that sought to plant a fake Aegon on the throne, and his point of view chapters also suggest that he truly believes that Young Griff is the real deal. But neither of those things necessarily rules out Young Griff as an imposter. If Young Griff is a fraud, as I suspect, it is far more likely that Connington has been decieved about Young Griff's identity by Varys. Rather than being one of Varys' co-conspirators, Connington is nothing more than a pawn in Varys' game of thrones. He knows only what Varys wants him to know, and nothing more.

Young Griff's purple eyes and silver hair also don't necessarily prove that he is a Targaryen. While the Targaryens are known for those traits, purple eyes and silver hair also occasionally pop up in other families that also have Valyrian ancestry. It was a common Valyrian trait, and not unique to the Targaryens. House Velaryon for example also traces its ancestry back to Old Valyria, and members of that house often have silver hair and purple eyes. It is just as likely that Young Griff is a fake with partial Valyrian ancestry .

I lean towards Illyrio Mopatis and his Lyseni wife Serra as being Young Griff's true parents, and Serra was described as having golden hair streaked with silver. The silver in her hair seems to suggest some partial Valyrian ancestry.

[Ser Lepus]

I still think Perfumed Seneschal may be the ship. In another thread somebody mentioned the pickled corpse transported on Selaesori Qhoran may be a victim of grey plague. Is so, the warning makes a lot of sense. Of course, the ship didn't get to Meereen, but we already know Quaithe's prophecies are fallible.

Why would anybody send the salted corpse of a greyscale victim to Qarth? Is the Selaesori Qhoran a kamikaze biowepon set against Qarth, or what?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why would anybody send the salted corpse of a greyscale victim to Qarth? Is the Selaesori Qhoran a kamikaze biowepon set against Qarth, or what?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's possible that someone, for whatever reason, wanted to infect Qarth with greyscale for ... some reason. I can think of better ways to wipe out a city, but there you go.

[LuisDantas]

Or maybe "pickled in brine" is an attempt at describing the greyscale itself, and the Widow is attempting to warn them against the disease?

[idiotking]

:rolleyes: "pickling in brine" is a way to preserve a corpse on a long voyage when you only have primitive technology... much as it's a good way to preserve cucumbers, beets, eggs, pig's feet... Pickling something preserves something because it basically kills organic matter -- bacteria and such that decompose and rot stuff, as well as cellular activity that breaks them down internally. So a pickled corpse is not exactly a good way to try and spread a disease, since the diseased cells and pathogen are going to be dead.

Sorry folks, next try.

Mark my words, it's a reference to the Maesters.

[Ser Lepus]

:rolleyes: "pickling in brine" is a way to preserve a corpse on a long voyage when you only have primitive technology... much as it's a good way to preserve cucumbers, beets, eggs, pig's feet... Pickling something preserves something because it basically kills organic matter -- bacteria and such that decompose and rot stuff, as well as cellular activity that breaks them down internally. So a pickled corpse is not exactly a good way to try and spread a disease, since the diseased cells and pathogen are going to be dead.

Sorry folks, next try.

Mark my words, it's a reference to the Maesters.

Maybe GRRM didn´t know that.

Anyways, "the-pickled-corpse-in-brine-is-a-greyscale-victim" is just a crackpot theory of Bastard-of-Godsgrace, there is nothing in the book pointing to that. The dangers in the Stinking Steward are most probably the living people in them, that is, Moqorro, Ser Jorah, Tyrion and who knows, maybe even Penny (she is neither very smart nor very brave, and could be tricked or blackmailed by Dany´s foes to do something stupid like spying for them or helping them poison Dany).

It may also be that Qaithei is not worried about Dany´s security and interests, but her own; she may fear that those people could advise Dany in a manner against her own plans.