[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[King Ned Stark]

As the story goes on, I'm beginning to wonder more and more of Rhaegar Targaryen, and what we actually know about him.

I'll start with GRRM's misdirection (IMHO). We have three vague rememberances of Rhaegar. Jorah, Barristan, and the Ned himself. All of which I am beginning to suspect might be misdirection on Martin's part. In not necessarily chronological order; Jorah is regaling Dany with Rhaegar fighting on the trident "Rhaegar fought honorably, nobly, and valiantly, and Rhaegar died". I, personally, don't think there is much if anything that comes out of Jorah's mputh that doesn't suit his own need at the moment. He fought against Rhaegar at the trident, and his words were merely Mormont trying to endear himself to Dany and sway her decision at the time. Next is Barristan, a tougher nut to crack. I don't think that Selmy ever told Dany that if Joffrey had not dismissed him then he would have served Joff for life, and indeed fought against her if/when she landed. Selmy said, to the best of my recollection, that he would have hated watching Ned die while wearing the white cloak, not the he would have tried to stop it, and indeed he stood aside while Ned was betrayed and Ned's men were butchered, and only showed contempt for the boy king when he was dismissed from the KG, despite the fact he knew Robert's last will and decree. This doesn't speak highly of Barristan, and indeed Ned contemplates going to Barristan over is knowledge of betrayal and treason, but he thinks Selmy was rigid in his honor and would tell Ned to "do his duty", when in fact Ned was doing his duty. Lastly we have Ned, which I think may be the cinching factor in Martin's misdirection. Ned's sole thought of Rhaegar is that he "wondered if Rhaegar frequented brothels, somehow he thought not", which is quite ingenious. Ned's "thought" actually tells us nothing, but it insinuates that Rhaegar was a better man and more worthy of Lya's love because he did not go to brothrels. All Ned's thought tells us is what we all know, most men don't frequent brothels. Which, within the vague context, could be taken to mean that Rhaegar was not a man who paid for what he wanted, he took what he wanted.

He rides past Elia to crown Lyanna, a woman betrothed and he married with kids, the queen of beauty. All the smiles died indeed. Little known men like Robert, Brandon, and Ned would not let a prince spit upon them with impunity. If Rhaegar had known anyting, he should have known that.

Next we have Griff's thoughts of Rhaegar, which to me seem like Griff was in love with Rhaegar, the prince gave him an obligatory "your father's lands are beautiful", e.g. Rhaegar could care less about Connington, which actually makes sense why Connington still fights for Rhaegar's cause. Rhaegar was such a good man that he said naught a word while his father beat his mother, his father exiled his "good" friend, and while his father burned innocent men alive. This is unforgivable to me. And after his return from his hiatus from supposedly abducting a daughter of one of the most powerful Houses in the realm what does he do? He tells Jaime that when he returns (when I smash the rebels) there will be changes (I'll be king as I should be). Is there no remorse for the Stark's, whom he drug into conflict? No. He is the heir apparent, and apparently entitled to whateveer he wants. His only recourse at that point is to offer Ned his neck on a chopping block. I don't care if he's playing at prophecy or not. Trying to force prophecy is like hammering a square peg through a round hole. Prophecy is a vision of future events, it doesn't need to be "activated", if Rhaegar didn't know then he was foolish. We have no noble thing that he has done, except being screamed for by peasants, which it said those peasants screamed half as loud for Tywin, so we know what thats "worth".

I'm wondering what Rhaegar's good qualities were.

[Spring Bass]

Rhaegar came across in a less positive light in this book. I think he turned a blind eye towards Aerys's creeping madness and excesses, even when Aerys began to suspect Rhaegar himself of plotting to overthrow him. He finally had realized that changes needed to be made by the time when he was leaving for the Trident, but by then it was much too late.

[villager]

I'd say it was more of a case of "god damn it my dad is an idiot, I'll kill him for making me leave my love nest" than any sort of distaste for the madness. If he never noticed his dad was off the rocks crazy before, then he must be even dumber than Cersei.

But then again, he is portrayed as possibly the biggest idiot in the entire series.

[corbon]

I'll start with GRRM's misdirection (IMHO). We have three vague rememberances of Rhaegar. Jorah, Barristan, and the Ned himself.

Actually the first we hear of Rhaegar is that he raped Neds sister, over and over and over. From Robert.

And kidnapped Lyanna, from Bran.

So one way or another, misdirection is certain.

Other things we know, which you don't mention:

Rhaegar was a bookish academic until he read something, then decided immediately he needed to be a great knight.

Rhaegar was a very good knight, maybe great. He won the Tourney at Harrenhal (though I think the KG could not joust against him, so he might have an easier time to win than others would).

Rhaegar was a musician, and quite good.

Lyanna cried at his sad song - and was teased by her younger brother - probably an indication that she crushed on him romantically, even though she was something of a tomboy (Arya comparisons, KotLT, fighting with Benjen in Bran's weirwood visions)

Rhaegar was instructed by Aerys to find the KotLT so he could be punished and Rhaegar failed. Or claimed to.

Rhaegar believed he needed 3 heads of the Dragon but his wife Elia was diagnosed unable to safely bring any more children to term.

Targaryens had a history of polygamy and bookish Rhaegar would have known it.

Selmy ... despite the fact he knew Robert's last will and decree. This doesn't speak highly of Barristan, and indeed Ned contemplates going to Barristan over is knowledge of betrayal and treason, but he thinks Selmy was rigid in his honor and would tell Ned to "do his duty", when in fact Ned was doing his duty.

Selmy knew that as read, Robert charged Ned to be Guardian/Lord Protector of the realm for his Heir. Which as far as Selmy knows is Joffrey.

So when Ned claims Joffrey is not the Heir, Ned isn't following the will, he's subverting it. So there is no reason for Selmy to support him.

As Ned knows, Selmy will do his duty, and support Robert's heir, Joffrey. With Ned to rule until he comes of age, as Robert specifies, but that part is secondary. If Ned is not supporting Joffrey, he is not following the will, to Selmy.

Ned did not do his duty. He should have told Robert the truth, but spared a dying friend painful knowledge and paid the cost of his 'modified duty' instead.

Lastly we have Ned, which I think may be the cinching factor in Martin's misdirection. Ned's sole thought of Rhaegar is that he "wondered if Rhaegar frequented brothels, somehow he thought not", which is quite ingenious. Ned's "thought" actually tells us nothing, but it insinuates that Rhaegar was a better man and more worthy of Lya's love because he did not go to brothrels. All Ned's thought tells us is what we all know, most men don't frequent brothels. Which, within the vague context, could be taken to mean that Rhaegar was not a man who paid for what he wanted, he took what he wanted.

This is weak sophistry.

Ned's thought specifically tells us that he did not think Rhaegar was the type of man to frequent brothels. It tells us nothing at all about most men. It does not tell us Rhaegar was a man who took what he wanted without paying - such a man could still frequent brothels, like Robert.

What it implies to us is that Ned believed that Rhaegar had a sort of honour - Ned does not frequent brothels, because it is not honourable to do so as we saw from his reaction when Littlefinger hid Catelyn in one, and his reluctance to visit them in pursuit of the truth about Jon Arryn's murder.

He rides past Elia to crown Lyanna, a woman betrothed and he married with kids, the queen of beauty. All the smiles died indeed. Little known men like Robert, Brandon, and Ned would not let a prince spit upon them with impunity. If Rhaegar had known anyting, he should have known that.

Indeed he did. The KotLT story explains this perfectly - Lyanna had earned the crown, even though most people present misunderstood.

Next we have Griff's thoughts of Rhaegar, which to me seem like Griff was in love with Rhaegar, the prince gave him an obligatory "your father's lands are beautiful", e.g. Rhaegar could care less about Connington, which actually makes sense why Connington still fights for Rhaegar's cause.

I see nowhere the slightest implication that Rhaegar cared less about Connington.

And I don't see anything that connects this story to Rhaegar being a terrible person.

Rhaegar was such a good man that he said naught a word while his father beat his mother,

We don't know he was aware of it. We also don't know he said nothing. Lastly, his father was King.

his father exiled his "good" friend, and while his father burned innocent men alive. This is unforgivable to me.

:rolleyes: He wasn't even around at this time. He was hiding at ToJ (or on the way), which is half a continent away. No one at KL supposedly knew where he was. In all probability by the time he heard of these events it was too late to do anything about them.

Incidentally, there is a decent theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the ToJ hiding from both their families and letting things calm down.

Aerys was already suspicious and paranoid, so may well have caused them as much trouble as the Starks.

And while them are 'gone' there are fewer options for escalation. No dangerous 'rescues'. No military adventures. Not even any personal 'challenges' where Rhaegar (or a KG member) must duel Brandon or co to the death. Instead, most of the options left are Aerys and Rickard getting together to sort it out safely.

But they just couldn't remove the possibility of Brandon being insanely irresponsible or Aerys displaying upping his paranoia several levels past genuine insanity.

And after his return from his hiatus from supposedly abducting a daughter of one of the most powerful Houses in the realm what does he do? He tells Jaime that when he returns (when I smash the rebels) there will be changes (I'll be king as I should be).

:rolleyes: Oops, there is a rebellion in full swing, and we've just lost a significant battle. I'll just have a wee coup before I go tidy up the rebellion.

No, you don't upset the power structure and create potential disruption amongst the loyalists by opening a second front of rebellion before finishing off the first one.

And yes, there'll be changes. The King is clearly certifiable, which wasn't quite so clear before. And Rhaegar might become King, but more likely will be Regent or similar until the King dies, with political power removed from the King due to his mental instability.

Is there no remorse for the Stark's, whom he drug into conflict? No. He is the heir apparent, and apparently entitled to whateveer he wants. His only recourse at that point is to offer Ned his neck on a chopping block.

He makes no offer to Ned at all. Your chopping block is both literally and figuratively entirely made up and unfounded.

Step 1. Stop the Rebellion.

Step 2. Remove the Mad King.

Step 3. Sort out what's left.

Step 1 and 2 could be reversed, but there is danger in that too. Aerys shouldn't be able to do too much damage with nearly all the troops with Rhaegar. No one thought he was dangerous enough to destroy all of KL.

Step 1 does not necessarily require the death of Ned Stark. If the Rebels submitted after losing, Rhaegar could keep them alive long enough to depose the King and then work something out. We don't know, because Rhaegar lost. But there is nothing to suggest Rhaegar had any particualry animosity for the Starks, only that Robert had particular animosity for Rhaegar.

I don't care if he's playing at prophecy or not. Trying to force prophecy is like hammering a square peg through a round hole. Prophecy is a vision of future events, it doesn't need to be "activated", if Rhaegar didn't know then he was foolish.

:rolleyes: Well I guess you know a lot more about how prophecy works in this world than Rhaegar, and what the details of the prophecy were too.

We have no noble thing that he has done, except being screamed for by peasants, which it said those peasants screamed half as loud for Tywin, so we know what thats "worth".

Quite a bit, since Tywin at that time was the popular Hand who had gievn the realm 20 years of peace and prosperity under Aerys.

Yet the people loved Rhaegar more, a lot more.

Its pretty damn simple.

Everybody (bar one), including the 'general populace', speak/think well of Rhaegar, even those who should not, or those who speak poorly of Aerys.

One person speaks badly of him. That person is in love with a girl who chose Rhaegar despite being betrothed to him, totally irrational on the subject, a drunken lecher and stupid enough to not be able to tell that his own wife has not let him finish inside her for years and all of his kids are his brother-in-laws.

Rhaegar might have been an ass at times, and certainly made some mistakes. But to argue that Robert is right and everybody else is wrong is ... a bold move?

[corbon]

I'd say it was more of a case of "god damn it my dad is an idiot, I'll kill him for making me leave my love nest" than any sort of distaste for the madness. If he never noticed his dad was off the rocks crazy before, then he must be even dumber than Cersei.

But then again, he is portrayed as possibly the biggest idiot in the entire series.

Exactly what off the rocks crazy behaviour had Aerys exhibited before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together?

A little paranoia, slowly escalating since Duskendale, and culminating (!) with wishing to punish the KotLT for insolence or something similar?

If you think Rhaegar has been portrayed as an idiot then you match well with Robert - who really was portrayed as the biggest idiot in the series!

[Griff]

I wouldn't say he's portrayed as an idiot (as a matter of fact he seems both gifted in many areas and a smart individual himself), but as noble as he might have been he's arguably the biggest loser in the history of Westeros.

Born the day of Summerhall's epic fail, he caused the war that ended up kicking his family off the throne, whatever prophecy he was trying to counter he didn't live long enough to do much against (this side of impregnating a woman he may have kindnapped for all we know), he vanished when the Targs had a shot at ending the rebellion, then he failed as a general as the Targ army was defeated at the Trident, and at swordplay as he got killed by Robert. Woot.

I'm not hating on Rhaegar, just pointing out that in GRRM's world, being noble and act accordingly doesn't help much to get s**t done, IMHO. We could figure it out before ADWD, hence the book didn't change the way I pictured Rhaegar in the slightest way.

[TamTam Rapley]

Rhaegar was a douchebag. I don't care if he loved Lyanna or if he kidnapped her, or whatever the hell happened, because we don't know. He still started a war. It was his actions that led to Brandon and Rickard dying and the subsequent rebellion. He should know better than to ignore the repruccusions of convincing/kidnapping a betrothed woman to run away with him. Either way it was stupid. And doing it because of a prophecy is not a valid excuse. The future is constantly in motion.

[villager]

Exactly what off the rocks crazy behaviour had Aerys exhibited before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together?

A little paranoia, slowly escalating since Duskendale, and culminating (!) with wishing to punish the KotLT for insolence or something similar?

Yeah, because it would make total sense for Aerys to go from perfectly normal one day to roasting high lords the next, and getting aroused from it. And I'm sure killing off every single Darklyn and Hollard, and ripping out Serala's womanly parts constitutes a perfectly rational human being. Oh, and apparently this is only the beginning stages of the madness. But I'm sure a son who has known his father all his life will never notice such fine, minute details.

If you think Rhaegar has been portrayed as an idiot then you match well with Robert - who really was portrayed as the biggest idiot in the series!

And what does it say about Rhaegar that he actually managed to lose against this idiot called Robert? Especially since he had the bigger army at the trident. But hey, let's list all the great examples of logic by Rhaegar:

1. I read prophecy. OMG IT'S ON A PIECE OF PARCHMENT! IT MUST BE TRUE!

2. I fall in love with a 15 year old who is betrothed to somebody else. I MUST DECLARE IT IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE REALM! And especially in front of my wife and kids!

3. I must have this chick! Create an excuse for divorce and then convince a man known to have southron ambitions to make his daughter queen? Hell nahhh dog! My only option is eloping! Nevermind Aegon the Unworthy deflowered a bajillion highborn girls without anybody ever raising a peep!

4. Oh wait, I'm the crown prince, would it not be totally contrary to my sense of honor and duty to totally abandon my family and post? Nahhh man, my dad totally got it. I'm sure he won't roast anybody when I'm gone.

5. Hmm, where should I go when I elope? Wait, I know, to the lands of my wife's family, who I just abandoned! Brilliant!

6. Let me see, is anybody gonna get mad that I kidnapped Lyanna? Nah man, everything is going to be chill. In fact, i'm so confident about it I will not listen to any outside news for a year.

OR ALTERNATIVELY:

6. Tscchh, my dad can totally kill these stupid rebels. He's a total genius!

7. Man I gotta go kill the biggest threat to the Targaeryns since the Blackfyres. Do I take the three greatest swordsmen in the realm with me? Psschhh, that's for sissies. Instead I'm going to leave them in the middle of nowhere where they can't do anything. Muhahahaha I'm such a genius.

Anything else that I missed? Frankly, I can't recall any actions of Rhaegar that doesn't amount to total idiocy. At least Robert stopping giving a crap, which is why he became "stupid". What's Rhaegar's excuse? Drank too much wildfire? I mean come on, how much of an idiot does Rhaegar have to be in order to think that eloping is the only possible option for the motherfreakin' CROWN PRINCE. Or it was actually a kidnapping, in which case he would be an even more massive idiot.

[Cydal]

1. He didnt just read the prophecy, it came in a dream by a Targ & since its common knowledge their dreams come true

2. He didnt declare it infront of the bloody realm, its believed he gave her the crown because he felt she deserved it for being the KOTLT

3. Being a Targ, he didnt need a divorce. They are allowed to have more than one wife without affecting the status of the other, besides its believed that she knew & probably approved since he told her(according to the vision) that he needed one more after Aegon's birth.

4. If he didnt actually kidnap Lyanna, then he had no reason to think everything that happened would happen. & NO, he didnt abandon his post(since he's not the king yet) & AGAIN he didnt abandon his family

5. AGAIN he didnt abandon her, Land of her family??? He's the bloody prince and heir apparent. He can go anywhere he bloody wishes

6. Maybe he didnt kidnap Lyanna, And u say it like they used radios that he decided to turn off

7. Three swordsmen will make no difference in a war, and what if they are protecting 2 ppl thought to be of the royal family (Lyanna & her baby) What difference does it make if he took them or not. At this point i think u're just picking at straws

You say he was riding out to kill Eddard, the moment Aerys killed Rickard & Brandon as well as all the other Lords & their sons, negotiating a peace was off the table. He had to win the war first. You think they'll turn back of he said "Don't worry people, i'll just depose my dad & its all ok"

Also you said he had more people at the battle of the trident, No he didnt. A lot of what you say is based on things that could as well be false like Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna

[Griff]

Also you said he had more people at the battle of the trident, No he didnt.

He did. Jorah Mormont tells Dany about the battle in AGOT. 40000 men in Rhaegar's army, 35000 in Robert's.

[wombat1138]

He rides past Elia to crown Lyanna, a woman betrothed and he married with kids, the queen of beauty. All the smiles died indeed. Little known men like Robert, Brandon, and Ned would not let a prince spit upon them with impunity. If Rhaegar had known anyting, he should have known that.

Oberyn Martell may've been there too, if he was the "red snake" who danced with Ashara Dayne in Meera's story. I'd think the Red Viper might've had some reaction of his own to Elia's humiliation, considering his vendetta with the Mountain for Elia's death.

[L13]

I won't address the whole post, which I mostly disagree with, because I think it is already being picked apart with sufficient vigour, but this struck me as an especially egregious case of misinterpretation:

Next we have Griff's thoughts of Rhaegar, which to me seem like Griff was in love with Rhaegar, the prince gave him an obligatory "your father's lands are beautiful", e.g. Rhaegar could care less about Connington, which actually makes sense why Connington still fights for Rhaegar's cause.

Actually, this is Connington's recollection of their exchange:

But when Jon Connington stepped out onto the high battlements, the view was just as intoxicating as he remembered: the crag with its wind-carved rocks and jagged spires, the sea below growling and worrying at the foot of the castle like some restless beast, endless leagues of sky and cloud, the wood with its autumnal colors. "Your father's lands are beautiful," Prince Rhaegar had said, standing right where Jon was standing now. And the boy he'd been had replied, "One day they will all be mine." As if that could impress a prince who was heir to the entire realm, from the Arbor to the Wall.

p. 804, UK edition

It seems to me that what we're supposed to take away from this passage is that Rhaegar was a. appreciative of beauty, and b. gracious to his friends. Connington is right; while land is a precious commodity to everyone else, a status symbol and a source of wealth, Rhaegar is wealthier and more powerful than Connington could possibly imagine. Land doesn't impress him because he is likely not even used to thinking of it in practical terms, as something you can have different amounts of--after all, he is set to inherit all the land in the Seven Kingdoms one day.

He is, however, impressed by the beauty of Connington's lands: something few people would even take note of or think to mention, judging by young Connington's reaction.

By finding something truly unique about Griffin's Roost and complimenting Connington on it, Rhaegar shows himself to be thoughtful and kind. Contrast this with Aegon's cocky "I like your castle." Now that is the obligatory remark of an immature princeling.

[DurararaFTW]

Indeed he did. The KotLT story explains this perfectly - Lyanna had earned the crown, even though most people present misunderstood.

You wanna explain that one?

[Saracen]

Actually in affc Rhaeger realizes that his father is mad and promises Jaime that after the trident he will call a high council so that change could happen. He also states that he should have done it earlier. You also see that Ned only speaks highly of Rhaeger which leads me to believe he didn't kidnap Lyanna. Don't blame Rhaeger for his father men like Arthur Dayne stood and watched. They had honor in their line of duty. They swore a vow and you can't ask them to forsake it.

Cydal you are wrong Rhaeger read it in a book. He read the prophecy and assumed it was him. He later realized that it wasn't and then guessed it was his son. Aemon says he was wrong on both accounts as he is dying

[Maia]

Yeah, because it would make total sense for Aerys to go from perfectly normal one day to roasting high lords the next, and getting aroused from it. And I'm sure killing off every single Darklyn and Hollard, and ripping out Serala's womanly parts constitutes a perfectly rational human being.

Well, Aerys was imprisoned, tormented and threatened by them for half a year, IIRC. And it doesn't seem all that different from what Tywin or Randyll Tarly might have done in retaliation for something like that. Heck, the traditional Westerosi "crow cages" are a very cruel punishment indeed.

Basically, in the eyes of most Darklyns and Hollards deserved it, even if it was a little excessive.

[The Dark Griffin]

By finding something truly unique about Griffin's Roost and complimenting Connington on it, Rhaegar shows himself to be uncommonly thoughtful and kind. Contrast this with Aegon's cocky, "I like your castle." Now that is the obligatory remark of an immature princeling.

This is a thoughtful point. Everyone seems to have loved Rhaegar, and for good reason. Also, I get the strong impression that Connington's feelings for the prince were unrequited, which makes the whole thing even more poignant.

[corbon]

Yeah, because it would make total sense for Aerys to go from perfectly normal one day to roasting high lords the next, and getting aroused from it.

Even if I assume this is sarcasm it makes no sense at all, since I just suggested that Aerys had exhibited increasing paranoia since Duskendale, not going from perfectly normal to roasting high lords over one day.

And I'm sure killing off every single Darklyn and Hollard, and ripping out Serala's womanly parts constitutes a perfectly rational human being. Oh, and apparently this is only the beginning stages of the madness. But I'm sure a son who has known his father all his life will never notice such fine, minute details.

Well, lets see. The Darklyns and Hollards didn't just directly defy Aerys, they imprisoned him.

Which is quite a lot more than the Reynes and Tarbecks did to Tywin Lannister.

So apparently Kevan Lannister is an idiot for not getting rid of 'Mad Tywin' during their youth. :fencing:

And yes, having Serala the Lace Serpent's womanly parts torn out was pretty over the top. But it is a brutal world and similar behaviour is not unknown elsewhere either. She was a treacherous snake believed to be the moving force behind the Defiance of Duskendale.

1. I read prophecy. OMG IT'S ON A PIECE OF PARCHMENT! IT MUST BE TRUE!

2. I fall in love with a 15 year old who is betrothed to somebody else. I MUST DECLARE IT IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE REALM! And especially in front of my wife and kids!

3. I must have this chick! Create an excuse for divorce and then convince a man known to have southron ambitions to make his daughter queen? Hell nahhh dog! My only option is eloping! Nevermind Aegon the Unworthy deflowered a bajillion highborn girls without anybody ever raising a peep!

4. Oh wait, I'm the crown prince, would it not be totally contrary to my sense of honor and duty to totally abandon my family and post? Nahhh man, my dad totally got it. I'm sure he won't roast anybody when I'm gone.

5. Hmm, where should I go when I elope? Wait, I know, to the lands of my wife's family, who I just abandoned! Brilliant!

6. Let me see, is anybody gonna get mad that I kidnapped Lyanna? Nah man, everything is going to be chill. In fact, i'm so confident about it I will not listen to any outside news for a year.

OR ALTERNATIVELY:

6. Tscchh, my dad can totally kill these stupid rebels. He's a total genius!

7. Man I gotta go kill the biggest threat to the Targaeryns since the Blackfyres. Do I take the three greatest swordsmen in the realm with me? Psschhh, that's for sissies. Instead I'm going to leave them in the middle of nowhere where they can't do anything. Muhahahaha I'm such a genius.

If any of these points resembled a fact, they might be worth answering.

Try redoing them with a little less ridiculous hyperbole and a little more thought. :thumbsdown:

[Cilldara]

The one fair point IMO is the crowning of Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal. That was completely and utterly idiotic and smacks of a complete naivety in terms of politics. There was no way that could have gone down well and there are just so many things wrong with it. I can accept that it may have been done with honourable and decent intentions but no one else knew of these with the possible exception of his wife. He may not have actually humiliated her, given Dany's vision she seems to have been in on the prophecy, but he appeared to have done so. Perception is important. What he did is unforgivable even if all of Westeros bar Robert actually forgave him for it.

[Dragonfish]

Jorah is regaling Dany with Rhaegar fighting on the trident "Rhaegar fought honorably, nobly, and valiantly, and Rhaegar died". I, personally, don't think there is much if anything that comes out of Jorah's mputh that doesn't suit his own need at the moment. He fought against Rhaegar at the trident, and his words were merely Mormont trying to endear himself to Dany and sway her decision at the time.

You left out the part where Jorah says Daenerys is just like Rhaegar, right as she's saving women from being raped. Seems like an odd thing to say if Rhaegar actually raped Lyanna.

Now, I suppose you could try to dismiss this by saying that Jorah is merely ingratiating himself with Dany. But the thing is, Jorah's assessment of Rhaegar is substantiated by many other characters in the book, which lends his statement a bit more credence.

Next is Barristan, a tougher nut to crack. I don't think that Selmy ever told Dany that if Joffrey had not dismissed him then he would have served Joff for life, and indeed fought against her if/when she landed. Selmy said, to the best of my recollection, that he would have hated watching Ned die while wearing the white cloak, not the he would have tried to stop it, and indeed he stood aside while Ned was betrayed and Ned's men were butchered, and only showed contempt for the boy king when he was dismissed from the KG, despite the fact he knew Robert's last will and decree. This doesn't speak highly of Barristan, and indeed Ned contemplates going to Barristan over is knowledge of betrayal and treason, but he thinks Selmy was rigid in his honor and would tell Ned to "do his duty", when in fact Ned was doing his duty.

I'm not sure what the point of all of this is. You seem to be saying that Barristan's statements can't be trusted because he has some sort of character flaw, which amounts to an ad hominem. And you haven't even mentioned what Barristan specifically says about Rhaegar: that he was the finest Targaryen of them all. Now, I know you'd try to dismiss this as well for the same reason you'd dismiss Ser Jorah's statement, but that argument isn't really going to fly. Barristan promised Dany he'd give her honest council and info, and he demonstrates this by telling Dany her father truly was crazy. So if Barristan believed that Rhaegar was showing the same crazy traits as his father, he would have said so in order to be honest. Instead, though, Barristan lauds Rhaegar, and says nothing negative about him. Given that he was someone who actually knew Rhaegar (unlike Ser Jorah or Ned), I'm inclined to give his statements much credence.

[Han Solo]

I know there is alot to the story that we don't know, but Rhaegar comes off as a terrible husband to Elia.