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Stubby

R + L = J Part XXIV

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Continuing due to previous thread getting to 400.

Please note - posting spoilers from ADwD in this thread is not allowed. There are threads in the ADwD section that continue the speculation on this topic with spoilers permitted, so head over there please.

Thanks in advance.

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Link to the previous thread is here.

I brought this over from the previous thread:

The person who gave the orders is dead. Lyanna is in this theory the queen, do you think she gave any orders that Ned should be killed if he showed up? Do you think the Kingsguard went to her and asked "hey what should we do, ned is at the front gate" and her answer was "kill them!"? And if she had survived the birth do you think the Kingsguard would expect her to look kindly on killing her brother?

Now, it makes sense to keep ned away from a bastard child, but none from the legitimate heir, if you are assuming that the Kingsguard is operating in the best interests of the presumptive heir. If they are operating on last orders, it seems to me that if Rhaegar specifically instructed to kill anyone who came for Lyanna, this likely was not what Lyanna would want. She shows no signs of hating her brother and wanting him dead.

If Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife, she would be the mother of his heir but not Queen. The only Queen at that point was Rhaella, off in Dragonstone. We don't know exactly who ordered the KG and what those specific orders were. My guess is Aerys ordered them to guard a hostage, but Rhaegar gave them his own orders to the same KG to protect her and his unborn child, but we can only speculate. Anyway, if the King and the crown Prince, each for his own reasons, had ordered the KG to keep Lyanna and her child in the tower, then the KG had very few choices.

Assuming they knew that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, they could still follow those orders (which they did); they could abandon the tower and leave Lyanna behind to die in order to go protect the Queen and Prince Viserys at Dragonstone; they could abandon the tower and attempt to move a heavily pregnant and/or grievously ill Lyanna and newborn (risking death to one or both) but they probably figured they wouldn't get to safe haven with a war going on in the Stormlands, or they could surrender. Lyanna was apparently feverish and dying when the battle was raging around her, but we don't know how much she knew about the events following Rhaegar going off to war.

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Stubby, please correct the thread numbering - the previous thread should have been XIII (thirteen), not XXIII (Twenty-three), and this thread should be XIV (fourteen), not XXIV (twentyfour) :)

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A couple of thoughts on this theory:

If Ned took a newborn Jon from a dying Lyanna who served at the wet nurse for him until he got back to Winterfell? I'm confused here. Did Willa/Ashara/whoever accompany them back to Winterfell or was Jon already weaned by the time they came back to Winterfell?

If R + L does in fact = J then perhaps Lynna extracted a promise from Ned to back the child as the rightful heir to the throne. but instead, he hid Jon as a bastard and sent him to the wall to keep him safe, keep peace, and stay loyal to Robert. That could explain Ned's ongoing guilt...

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A couple of thoughts on this theory:

If Ned took a newborn Jon from a dying Lyanna who served at the wet nurse for him until he got back to Winterfell? I'm confused here. Did Willa/Ashara/whoever accompany them back to Winterfell or was Jon already weaned by the time they came back to Winterfell?

If R + L does in fact = J then perhaps Lynna extracted a promise from Ned to back the child as the rightful heir to the throne. but instead, he hid Jon as a bastard and sent him to the wall to keep him safe, keep peace, and stay loyal to Robert. That could explain Ned's ongoing guilt...

Most noble houses could recruit wet nurses from the servant or village population. That's what Old Nan used to be. That's how Jon got a wet nurse for the wildling baby. Nothing odd about that at all. And by the time Ned would have brought him back — remember they came from Starfall all the way back up to Winterfall — he probably would have been old enough to be on goat's milk or even some solid foods.

I think it's more a case of, Lyanna made Ned promise to keep Jon's identity a secret because she feared for his safety.

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Isn't it Syrio Forel. I think its pretty obvious.

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I'm pretty new here, and i'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm currently re-reading AGoT, and a couple of lines jumped out at me, when Ned visited the 'whore' (I hate that word) who had a baby to Robert, he thought Rhaegar for the first time in many years (to paraphrase).

Why would Rhaegar suddenly pop into his head at this point? I personally desperately want Ned to be Jon's father, however I am finding some of the R+L=J arguements rather convincing, and just felt this should join them. Apologies if i'm just going old ground.

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I'm pretty new here, and i'm sure this has been mentioned before, but i'm currently re-reading AGoT, and a couple of lines jumped out at me, when Ned visited the 'whore' (I hate that word) who had a baby to Robert, he thought Rhaegar for the first time in many years (to paraphrase).

Why would Rhaegar suddenly pop into his head at this point? I personally desperately want Ned to be Jon's father, however I am finding some of the R+L=J arguements rather convincing, and just felt this should join them. Apologies if i'm just going old ground.

Whorehouse => mens lusts => bastards => Jon => Rhaegar (Jon's father), IIRC the context. Those seem to be the logical associations.

If you are relatively new to the series (in depth at least) and just starting to get your head around a lot of the little mysteries, you might find some time spent at the citadel worth your while.

You can start here on a variety of things, and here in particular for R+L=J (or rather, 'Who are Jon's parents?')

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Assuming they knew that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, they could still follow those orders (which they did); they could abandon the tower and leave Lyanna behind to die in order to go protect the Queen and Prince Viserys at Dragonstone; they could abandon the tower and attempt to move a heavily pregnant and/or grievously ill Lyanna and newborn (risking death to one or both) but they probably figured they wouldn't get to safe haven with a war going on in the Stormlands, or they could surrender. Lyanna was apparently feverish and dying when the battle was raging around her, but we don't know how much she knew about the events following Rhaegar going off to war.

Once Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, it would seem likely that their orders pale into insignificance by comparison with the KG primary order of 'protect the King'. It beggars belief that they did not detach at least one of the three to go to little King Viserys, who had no KG.

Unless Viserys is not the King.

Lyanna is of no importance at all, without Aerys (maybe) or Rhaegar (in particular). It is Rhaegar's child they are protecting. And if Rhagear and Lyanna got married (Targaryens have precedent of polygamy, so no change in Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon's status) then with Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, a legitimate baby boy would be legally King. Protecting him would trump any and all other orders for the KG. Lyanna counts only in that she is his mother, and he has a better chance of surviving infancy if she survives than not.

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Once Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, it would seem likely that their orders pale into insignificance by comparison with the KG primary order of 'protect the King'. It beggars belief that they did not detach at least one of the three to go to little King Viserys, who had no KG.

Unless Viserys is not the King.

Lyanna is of no importance at all, without Aerys (maybe) or Rhaegar (in particular). It is Rhaegar's child they are protecting. And if Rhagear and Lyanna got married (Targaryens have precedent of polygamy, so no change in Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon's status) then with Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, a legitimate baby boy would be legally King. Protecting him would trump any and all other orders for the KG. Lyanna counts only in that she is his mother, and he has a better chance of surviving infancy if she survives than not.

I think you're on to something about Viserys (i.e., they thought he wasn't the rightful King if Rhaegar had another son) but I disagree about Lyanna not being important. She was important to Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne was a close friend of Rhaegar and might have protected her out of love for him if no other reason. Besides that, the KG had a good enough reason to protect the mother of Rhaegar's son after what happened to Elia.

Or, if Arthur was persuaded by Rhaegar that his third child was important to fulfilling a prophesy, then out of friendship if nothing else, he would honor Rhaegar's request to protect the woman he loved and his unborn child. I don't think it mattered to the prophesy if the three heads of the dragon were trueborn or not, or at least it didn't say so that I recall.

I'm one of the R+L=J believers who does not necessarily think Rhaegar and Lyanna were "lawfully" married - and I'll be happy if I'm wrong about this - because it would have meant setting Elia aside for no good reason that anyone (other than Rhaegar and maybe his close friends) would accept, and we don't have any back story that Rhaegar had done that, although keeping a lover certainly didn't endear him to the Martell faction - that much we do know. I know that Targaryens practiced polygamy, but it was always within the family and that seemed to be the only loophole that the Faith allowed, but maybe they took secret vows to each other... such as in front of a heart tree, so that Lyanna would be his wife by choice if not by law.

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I know that Targaryens practiced polygamy, but it was always within the family and that seemed to be the only loophole that the Faith allowed...

Actually, this isn't true:

"Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent."

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Besides that, the KG had a good enough reason to protect the mother of Rhaegar's son after what happened to Elia.

She'd need protecting from Ned?

Nah, its the kid that matters. And Viserys is only not-king if the kid is legitimate.

Dragonfish has already covered the polygamy error. Elia does not need to be set aside for legitimacy.

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Just a thought: Lyanna and Rhaegar didn´t have any children together, but they were married. Maybe Lyanna simply got a fever since she was a northerner, hiding in Dorne, which has a diffrent kind of weather. So, if they were married, it would explain the Kingsguard there and the promise Ned made to Lyanna is that he won`t tell anyone that she married Rhaegar. Imagine this; Ned tells Robert that Lyanna married Rhaegar, Robert`s arch enemy. Not good.

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Just a thought: Lyanna and Rhaegar didn´t have any children together, but they were married. Maybe Lyanna simply got a fever since she was a northerner, hiding in Dorne, which has a diffrent kind of weather. So, if they were married, it would explain the Kingsguard there and the promise Ned made to Lyanna is that he won`t tell anyone that she married Rhaegar. Imagine this; Ned tells Robert that Lyanna married Rhaegar, Robert`s arch enemy. Not good.

Mind telling us what kind of fever coincides with a bloody bed? "The bloody bed" is mentioned elsewhere in GoT, by Mirri, as being synonymous with child-birthing. One of the other books, can't recall which one (AFFC?), calls childbirth the woman's battle.

Ned recalls his promise to Lyanna in very specific instances, namely when Sansa is pleading for the life of her wolf. It's not that much of a stretch to relate Sansa begging for the life of an innocent companion to Lyanna begging for the safety of her child.

And really, if Lyanna's dead anyway, why would she care if Robert knew she'd married Rhaegar?

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There are several hints, throughout the story.

But without taking all the other things into account, the thing that troubles me the most, are the Kingsguard. And not one, two but three of them. And with them Arthur Dayne the ''greatest'' of them all.

They were not with Rhaegar at the Trident. Not with the remaining Targaryens at Kings Landing. So why were the three KG alone in the desert waiting for something to happen?

If you don't believe in R+L=J, and Lyanna is just a valuable prisoner. Why wasn't she used that way before?

If R+L=J is true, then there are a lot of reasons.

Even if Rhaegar ordered them to stay and guard the tower, why should they stay there AFTER Rhaegar was killed. Sense of honor? If there were still Targaryens alive out there? Maybe I would buy it were it only his best friend staying. But not three of them.

I just can't believe they would be staying at a place with no strategic value, if they still should know that Targaryens are alive out there.

Yes, there could be some way around that fact with a little sideinfo to make that more believable, but IMO not at the moment (pre ADWD info).

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Thinking back to that scene, I am now of the opinion that the fight between the KG and Ned's seven had nothing to do with Lyanna and everything to do with the Kingsguard.

The entire conversation is about the things the Kingsguard does not do (flee, kneel), but their side lost and the only thing left is to join their King and Prince in death. There is such as sense of sadness to that scene, because everybody knows they are about to fight to the death for honours sake. The KG were going to all die, the 7-3 odds ensured that, but it was a fair fight as these three were the best.

I do not think they were blocking the entrance to the tower in a 'you shall not pass sense' but as 'you must go through us first.' Lyanna needed some protection, so they waited at the tower rather than riding out to seek battle, but with Ned's arrival that duty was done. And if they had killed Ned in the fight, then his surviving friends would have protected her in his place.

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Thinking back to that scene, I am now of the opinion that the fight between the KG and Ned's seven had nothing to do with Lyanna and everything to do with the Kingsguard.

The entire conversation is about the things the Kingsguard does not do (flee, kneel), but their side lost and the only thing left is to join their King and Prince in death. There is such as sense of sadness to that scene, because everybody knows they are about to fight to the death for honours sake. The KG were going to all die, the 7-3 odds ensured that, but it was a fair fight as these three were the best.

I do not think they were blocking the entrance to the tower in a 'you shall not pass sense' but as 'you must go through us first.' Lyanna needed some protection, so they waited at the tower rather than riding out to seek battle, but with Ned's arrival that duty was done. And if they had killed Ned in the fight, then his surviving friends would have protected her in his place.

I agree it was nothing to do with Lyanna.

But they did have something critically important to do, their primary oath, somewhere else. Viserys, their rightful King, was totally unprotected. So 'death for honour' is not a good argument. They have something bigger than their honour awaiting them.

So why did they ignore that?

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Thinking back to that scene, I am now of the opinion that the fight between the KG and Ned's seven had nothing to do with Lyanna and everything to do with the Kingsguard.

The entire conversation is about the things the Kingsguard does not do (flee, kneel), but their side lost and the only thing left is to join their King and Prince in death. There is such as sense of sadness to that scene, because everybody knows they are about to fight to the death for honours sake. The KG were going to all die, the 7-3 odds ensured that, but it was a fair fight as these three were the best.

I do not think they were blocking the entrance to the tower in a 'you shall not pass sense' but as 'you must go through us first.' Lyanna needed some protection, so they waited at the tower rather than riding out to seek battle, but with Ned's arrival that duty was done. And if they had killed Ned in the fight, then his surviving friends would have protected her in his place.

I'm not entirely sure this makes sense. If one king or heir dies, the Kingsguard's loyalty, in theory, automatically transfers to the next legal heir. With Rhaegar and Aerys dead, the Kingsguard should have immediately all gone to Dragonstone to protect, in their mind, the legal heir — Viserys. But they didn't. I think it had more to do with the fact that Viserys wasn't the actual legal heir, rather than the idea that the Kingsguard just gave up. I don't think it was (just) Lyanna that they were protecting.

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Besides, King Aerys's forces lost the war, but Barristan Selmy didn't die; he survived the war and was pardoned. If anyone were going to fight to the death, wouldn't it be him? I personally think the KG at the ToJ dying were protecting something and died protecting it, vice the whole "not fleeing" argument. It simply makes more sense.

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Besides, King Aerys's forces lost the war, but Barristan Selmy didn't die; he survived the war and was pardoned. If anyone were going to fight to the death, wouldn't it be him? I personally think the KG at the ToJ dying were protecting something and died protecting it, vice the whole "not fleeing" argument. It simply makes more sense.

Barristan Selmy was incapacitated at the Trident. He fought to the point of 'physically unable to fight any more' and only was pardoned and accepted Robert as King after he had recovered and the war was done with and Robert acknowledged King in KL.

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