[ADwD Spoilers] Dany Criticism Before and After ADWD

[Alexius]

I'm not asking if people like her or not. I gather even more people dislike her now than did before, and she always had a lot of detractors. But is she still a Mary Sue?

I find her chapters in ASoS abhorrent with all that "evil slavers are evil" stuff. But in ADwD her plot became far more realistic and vivid. And so I actually started to enjoy her chapters. But it looks like I'm one of a few readers who liked Dany's plotline in ADwD -_-

As I see it she had made all her major mistakes in ASoS (abolishing slavery, triumvirate in Astapor, leaving Yunkai unbroken) and in ADwD she's just trying to cope with the consequences. All this talk about "Dany losing her wits" seems strange to me.

[tangerine]

I think the term "Mary Sue" is extremely sexist. I'm sick of reading about kickass female protagonists being accused of being Mary Sues. I'd rather read about a "perfect" female protagonist who has the spotlight than none at all. I'll decide if a character is a cliche, male or female, and choose to read or not accordingly.

Dany has been in a hard situation ever since the series began. Sold by her brother and humiliated constantly by her last living kin until his death. Forced to roll with the Drogo situation and make the most of it; did she love him? It might as well have been Stockholm Syndrome since she had been more or less his captive since the beginning. She suffers betrayal, starvation and the lack of a home. Her travels were not easy. She only relatively had the last few victories aided by her dragons' birth.

As for her wanting Daario, this is pretty much the first crush she develops in the books out of her own free will. Drogo she was forced with. Hidazhr (sp?) she chose out of political reasons. And then people are AMAZED that she develops a crush on a sexy sellsword?! I'm amazed it didn't happen earlier, to be honest. I think people are uncomfortable with her sexuality and her actually wanting sex with him and initiating it herself. Readers could stomach it (or not) when it was done against her will but her actually WANTING sex? How dare she! You didn't hear much complaints when it was with Irri. -_-

I am one of the few people who enjoyed the Dany chapters in ADWD over her chapters in earlier books believe it or not. Then again, I enjoyed AFFC as a book overall so I guess my opinion(s) are in the minority.

[Jon AS]

This is, I presume, after she decided to massacre a city (unless they are under twelve, kill the parents but spare the children :rolleyes: because being orphaned and left to starve is so merciful) so that she could steal an army of slaves, after negotiating in bad faith?

She decided to kill the slavers (only a small fraction of the population) in Astapor because she realised that, holy crap these people are fucking evil. Badly thought out? Definitely. On the other hand, she certainly does try to sort the mess out once she realises this. It's for that reason I don't consider her en par with guys like Tywin Lannister or Petyr Baelish, who are resposible for bloodshed on a similar (probably greater) scale, but do it purely for their personal gain.

ORLY? Cause I thought it was very logical to anticipate this happening. She is leading an army across the continent sacking cities. What else are they supposed to do, sit back and wait for her to arrive at their gates to sack their cities and massacre their inhabitants as well?

Only she wasn't leading an army anywhere. She was staying right there in Meereen. She had spared Yunkai on the way there. The Yunkaii weren't coming after her because they thought she would come and kill them, they waged war because they wanted to keep selling people as a property.

Putting it as simply as you did, yeah, it was the right thing to do. But the WAY she did it — utterly oblivious to culture and opposition, without a single plan to shore up the economy that abolition destroyed, leaving power vacuums behind (Astapor is probably worse off now than it was before she arrived), lacking any sort of diplomatic tact — boggles the mind.

Her approach is simplistic. I don't think we're supposed to take away from the story that the world would be better off if we were to put its fate in the hands of a sixteen year old girl. But, as I said above, she makes her mistakes because she is compassionate.

[Kadence]

I think Dany absolutely did the right thing in wanting to rule, rather than conquer. She's just an incompetent ruler, who ignores good advice and listens to horrible advice.

On the Daario thing - I think people make too much of it...although it certainly speaks ill of her that she knows he's a ruthless murderous monster, and still has a relationship with him. How many girls in real life do you know that willingly have relationships with men they know are this monstrous? But as long as they are loyal and hot it doesn't matter?

I think if she wanted a cute hot guy as a sex toy, that's fine. There must have been plenty in Meereen like that. To pick a murderous bastard...that's pretty bad. But, not really one of the things I have most issue with. I have more issue with her ruling, and the insane decision to marry some unimpressive slaver loser. When all her smart advisors even told her what a horrid idea this was. And then not learning anything from her mistakes.

As to the economics, it's important to remember that that was a subject not very well understood (if we can even claim that we understand it today...) even by highly educated and eminently competent people (like Roman Emperors) for most of our history. Complaining that Dany didn't have the foresight to anticipate all of Essos declaring war on her seems a bit harsh.

This doesn't make sense. It was fairly obvious that all of Slaver's Bay would unite against her. Volantis, that was harder to predict. But Slaver's Bay? Inevitable.

She arranged for a political marriage that stopped the murders

If the guy was worthy of being King, he would have stopped the murders without the bribe of Kingship. Also she could have tried to bribe him with something much less, like opening the gladiator arena again. He probably would have bit. Marrying him was very dumb especially if she still planned on going to Westeros, which would never accept this foreign chump as king, dragons or no dragons.

She's made mistakes, as all the characters in the series tend to, but I think hers attract a level of vitriol that's way over the top.

My problem is that she doesn't learn from her mistakes, nor suffer for them. Meanwhile people who make much fewer mistakes get their heads chopped off, mutilated, or stabbed repeatedly. This is a series where people get their cocks flayed and forced to fuck dogs. Dany somehow avoids any real political consequences - her citizens suffer, not her.

Putting it as simply as you did, yeah, it was the right thing to do. But the WAY she did it — utterly oblivious to culture and opposition, without a single plan to shore up the economy that abolition destroyed, leaving power vacuums behind (Astapor is probably worse off now than it was before she arrived), lacking any sort of diplomatic tact — boggles the mind.

Agreed.

[Alexia]

I don't consider her en par with guys like Tywin Lannister or Petyr Baelish, who are resposible for bloodshed on a similar (probably greater) scale, but do it purely for their personal gain.

I don't consider her en par with these guys either, but I do think that she is an absolutely terrible ruler. And I return to the point of, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I feel sorry for the people of Mereen who received the privilege of being her trial run at leadership.

Plus, she sits there in that final chapter thinking about how much she hates them and the fact that they eat dog is on her list of sins that they commit. :laugh:

Dany somehow avoids any real political consequences - her citizens suffer, not her.

This is my biggest complaint. Cersei, another political incompetent, just got paraded naked through the city as a result of her political incompetence. Daenerys just flies off on a dragon and gets herself a khalasar, and btw, if she brings that khalasar to Westeros I dearly hope her dragons eat her AND the khalasar.

I do think she takes too much heat for sleeping with Daario. I don't see the sexual attraction of a guy with a blue beard, but big deal. Letting him kiss her in public, that was poorly thought out. Otherwise, who cares?

[Brienne the Beauty]

I think the term "Mary Sue" is extremely sexist. I'm sick of reading about kickass female protagonists being accused of being Mary Sues. I'd rather read about a "perfect" female protagonist who has the spotlight than none at all. I'll decide if a character is a cliche, male or female, and choose to read or not accordingly.

I agree completely. "Mary Sue" used to mean author self-insertion character, but it's been distorted in an extremely sexist way to mean "female character who is powerful and competent"

If Dany's a Mary Sue, so is Jon Snow. Both of them are young, pretty, have special magical animal companions, and power and achievements beyond their years.

[Sun]

ADWD took my ambivalence towards her and created a solid loathing and desperate hope that she never gets anywhere near Westeros. I am certain to be disappointed.

Oh if only!! Martin killing off Dany in the next book would make me cry for joy. Sigh... but you're right, the odds are better on me winning the lottery than Dany dying anytime soon, and I don't even play the lotto.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Longtime Daenerys hater here. Did anybody else get really and irrationally angry at her "Stark was a traitor who died a traitor's death" comments to Selmy? I get that Ned rebelled against her father and played a huge part in overthrowing her family's dynasty -- but, listen, lady, your dad kind of fried Ned's dad, strangled his brother, and your brother by popular account (which we the reader know to be wrong but Dany doesn't) kidnapped Ned's sister. Also, he tried to save your life when Robert wanted to kill you. It made me want to talk to some sense into the woman.

She does need someone to actually tell her this. She doesn't know about the things her dad did to Ned's family. She doesn't know he tried to save her life. No-one has ever dared to tell her any of this, and someone needs to. But it's not a personal flaw of hers that she doesn't know this - she's not psychic. Selmy for a start should give her the big picture. He really chickens out of this.

[guad]

I agree completely. "Mary Sue" used to mean author self-insertion character, but it's been distorted in an extremely sexist way to mean "female character who is powerful and competent"

If Dany's a Mary Sue, so is Jon Snow. Both of them are young, pretty, have special magical animal companions, and power and achievements beyond their years.

Agreed.

One of the reasons I liked Dany pre ADWD was that she chose to stay and learn to rule - it showed that she was aware of her limitations, experience and ruling wise.

I find it extremely interesting that she is not really learning, or rather trying to learn and making lots of mistakes. In ADWD she proves that she's a bad diplomat and rather bad at reading people (See Brown Ben Plumm). BUT she can learn still, and I'm sure she will eventually realise it.

I also like that her "heroic actions", freeing the slaves, turn out to have disastrous consequences for most of the eastern continent. While I fully support the Breaker of Shackles, the way to achieve it should maybe be approached differently. Though Volantis seems to be waiting for her anyway.

And yes, she has dragons. But she first locks them up, then ignores them and in the end turns out that she's having a hard time controlling one.

Overall I like the direction Dany is taking. Makes it more interesting :)

[Alexia]

Overall I like the direction Dany is taking. Makes it more interesting :)

Agreed; she has taken Joffrey and Theon's place as the character that I love to hate. :laugh: Villains are always more interesting when they've been fleshed out nicely as characters.

[Jon AS]

I think Dany absolutely did the right thing in wanting to rule, rather than conquer. She's just an incompetent ruler, who ignores good advice and listens to horrible advice.

What good advice did she ignore? The Shavepate's, who wanted to go and torture everyone suspected of working against her? The advice to just go and kill all the inhabitants of one or two of the great pyramids?

This doesn't make sense. It was fairly obvious that all of Slaver's Bay would unite against her. Volantis, that was harder to predict. But Slaver's Bay? Inevitable.

"All of Slaver's Bay" amounts to Yunkai at this point. She could have dealt with Yunkai (in fact she already did in ASOS). It's the snowball effect that leads to people in Volantis and Qarth doing their damndest to bring her down that gets her into real trouble.

My problem is that she doesn't learn from her mistakes, nor suffer for them. Meanwhile people who make much fewer mistakes get their heads chopped off, mutilated, or stabbed repeatedly. This is a series where people get their cocks flayed and forced to fuck dogs. Dany somehow avoids any real political consequences - her citizens suffer, not her.

It's odd how two people can read the same book and come away with such different impressions. To me, learning from her mistakes was a major theme for her in ADWD.

And what's this about suffering the consequences? Do you want her to be tortured and sexually abused for the sin of making bad decisions out of compassion? That seems rather excessive (and besides I thought she suffered more than enough of that in the first book).

Ned is a good comparison, though. Compassion is his great "sin" as well, and his compassion also caused massive death and destruction. Dany just has enough loyal supporters (and those handy dragons) to keep her alive where he died.

I feel sorry for the people of Mereen who received the privilege of being her trial run at leadership.

Of course she didn't think of it as a trial run. She thought she could find a home in Meereen. And given the massive adoration she inspires in the freed slaves (and the fact that the slaves of Volantis seem to eagerly anticipate her freeing them, too) it seems that quite a lot of her subjects think that she wasn't completely terrible.

[HighwayStar]

This is my biggest complaint. Cersei, another political incompetent, just got paraded naked through the city as a result of her political incompetence. Daenerys just flies off on a dragon and gets herself a khalasar, and btw, if she brings that khalasar to Westeros I dearly hope her dragons eat her AND the khalasar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that Cersei had three children with her brother (which was treason as well as incest), conspired to get her husband killed, had some of her husband's bastards offed, tried to frame her daughter-in-law by extorting false confessions with torture, and provided Qyburn with people on which to conduct his experiments... It seems a bit more than just political incompetence to me. Dany is certainly not blameless of the mess she ends up with in ADwD, but I still think there is no comparison whatsoever. Then again, if you hate her character so much, nothing will convince you otherwise.

[darrylzero]

Context matters. She very suddenly found herself in a situation of being responsible for thousands of people in ASOS and tried to make the best of the situation. Would leaving them to their fate and sailing away on Illyrio's ships have been the better option?

As to the economics, it's important to remember that that was a subject not very well understood (if we can even claim that we understand it today...) even by highly educated and eminently competent people (like Roman Emperors) for most of our history. Complaining that Dany didn't have the foresight to anticipate all of Essos declaring war on her seems a bit harsh.

One should also consider that she did learn to listen to her advisors and did learn to compromise. She arranged for a political marriage that stopped the murders without resorting to burning down half the city with dragonfire and even managed to forge a (very disadvantageous) peace accord with the armies threatening Meereen.

She's made mistakes, as all the characters in the series tend to, but I think hers attract a level of vitriol that's way over the top.

Co-sign. She's doing pretty well for a 16 year old. I'm not even particularly convinced there was better way to end slavery in Meereen. It was bound to be bloody and difficult.

[TrueMetis]

Context matters. She very suddenly found herself in a situation of being responsible for thousands of people in ASOS and tried to make the best of the situation. Would leaving them to their fate and sailing away on Illyrio's ships have been the better option?

Considering all the people dying of the bloody flux and the wars she caused, fuck yea. I'd rather take my chances as a slave than deal with diseases like that.

[Joy Lannister]

I think that whether or not a character is a Mary Sue does not depend on how many good qualities they have or how strong they seem. It depends on how strong the opposing force is. You can have a character who is a demi-god and he/she still won't be a Mary Sue if the hardship they face and the enemies they have or simply want to defeat are yet stronger.

At the end of aSoS, Dany's "enemy" was anyone who could stand on her way to the Iron Throne. Considering that Westeros was (and still is) torn by war, she seemed maybe far stronger than her challenge with her three dragons, army of Unsullied, hordes of worshippers, sellsword companies, powerful people from all over the world heading in her direction. Even if her real enemies were the Others and the wights, her armies of non-Westerosi (maybe) still wouldn't have felt right as a solution to a primary Westerosi conflicts.

After aDwD, Dany is one of my least favorite characters, but no one, by any definition, can call her a Mary Sue. She has plenty of flaws, and her enemy is her own nature - an enemy she seems incapable (for now) of defeating.

[guad]

Considering all the people dying of the bloody flux and the wars she caused, fuck yea. I'd rather take my chances as a slave than deal with diseases like that.

She can hardly be held responsible for the flux. By that rule, we have to blame Robb for the famine in the Riverlands. Dany chose to free the slaves, which is a good thing. The consequences are terrible but even with this she tries to deal. :/

[TrueMetis]

She can hardly be held responsible for the flux. By that rule, we have to blame Robb for the famine in the Riverlands. Dany chose to free the slaves, which is a good thing. The consequences are terrible but even with this she tries to deal. :/

She certainly can, she's not the only responsible party but she is one of them.

[TheDanish]

I don't find her a Mary Sue, for reasons already mentioned. She's immature, inexperienced, makes blunders left and right while trying to rule, and is more self-righteous than she realizes. I thought DWD kicked up her development a notch and her last bit with Drogon on the Dothraki Sea was sort of her kick-in-the-ass. She'll realize she's been doing things wrong and will work to change them.

[Han Solo]

I agree completely. "Mary Sue" used to mean author self-insertion character, but it's been distorted in an extremely sexist way to mean "female character who is powerful and competent"

If Dany's a Mary Sue, so is Jon Snow. Both of them are young, pretty, have special magical animal companions, and power and achievements beyond their years.

I'm not sure if I'd call Dany a Mary Sue as it were, but she is the only character who simply doesn't to pay for her mistakes, at least since AGoT. And yes, it was the same for Jon until this very book, where his mistakes got him assassinated. (Yeah I know he probably isn't dead, but the fallout is still there and he's a large reason for it.)

[Awesome Starks]

I liked Dany well enough but her wanting to rule the seven kingdoms like it was hers and hers along bugs me, actually anybody wanting to rule the seven kingdoms and sit on that ugly throne. She just bugs ugh I would not be sad if she died like five books ago