[ADwD Spoilers] Dany Criticism Before and After ADWD

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I find her chapters in ASoS abhorrent with all that "evil slavers are evil" stuff. But in ADwD her plot became far more realistic and vivid. And so I actually started to enjoy her chapters. But it looks like I'm one of a few readers who liked Dany's plotline in ADwD -_-

As I see it she had made all her major mistakes in ASoS (abolishing slavery, triumvirate in Astapor, leaving Yunkai unbroken) and in ADwD she's just trying to cope with the consequences. All this talk about "Dany losing her wits" seems strange to me.

I don't really have anything to add, but I just wanted to say it's nice to read that I'm not the only one who liked Dany's story in ADwD. We may be the only two people though. ;) I do wish Martin would have had Tyrion meet up with her. I think he would have been an invaluable help.

[memmorio]

Doesn't she keep telling Selmy she wants to know everything about her family (which would include the truth about Ned), then ignoring him? Either way, I'm sure that'll come out eventually. If it doesn't, too many people will be rooting for her death when she gets to Westeros & wants to do away with the remaining Starks.

That isn't terribly surprising though. Plenty of people want truth that is convenient. She was raised on the idea that Ned is bad for various reasons. She is not ready to accept the gritty reality of the situation. One of those realities that exists is that there are no absolutes in Westeros or elsewhere.

[theladyinspring]

It's odd how two people can read the same book and come away with such different impressions. To me, learning from her mistakes was a major theme for her in ADWD.

And what's this about suffering the consequences? Do you want her to be tortured and sexually abused for the sin of making bad decisions out of compassion? That seems rather excessive (and besides I thought she suffered more than enough of that in the first book).

I agree. Of the major story arcs in ADWD, Dany is the ONLY one to significantly acknowledge and learn from mistakes. I guess if someone hates Dany they might have been skimming and skipping her chapters, but it's hard to miss all of the regrets and recriminations in the final Dany chapter.

And yeah, I think people want her to suffer violence when they say suffer the consequences. I think it's a failure of imagination. Dany has already experienced plenty of violence and blood in her life. More of that would not be a good consequence. Being raped again, enslaved again, what would this teach her?

She suffered consequences. Her great vision of being the benevolent queen bringing peace and prosperity was utterly dashed. She doesn't even know how bad yet, since at the end she isn't aware that the "peace" is already over and war has begun. She accomplished none of the things she set out to do and is now completely alone. In fact, back at square one.

[HighwayStar]

I don't really have anything to add, but I just wanted to say it's nice to read that I'm not the only one who liked Dany's story in ADwD. We may be the only two people though. ;) I do wish Martin would have had Tyrion meet up with her. I think he would have been an invaluable help.

No, there's three of us! Unfortunately, the haters seem to see only what they want to see, and trying to state something different leads to being ignored (which, I suppose, is better than being flamed :D).

[kalex716]

Putting it as simply as you did, yeah, it was the right thing to do. But the WAY she did it — utterly oblivious to culture and opposition, without a single plan to shore up the economy that abolition destroyed, leaving power vacuums behind (Astapor is probably worse off now than it was before she arrived), lacking any sort of diplomatic tact — boggles the mind.

It doesn't boggle the mind. She's a 16 year old kid. It's exactly what a kid would do, they would have an idea of what they think right or wrong is, but lack the ability to see the fruits of their convictions all the way through. Remember, we saw the same kinda thing from Joff when he thought beheading Ned Stark would be a good way to express strength to his people. Both were good ideas, but the kids went about it the wrong way.

A teenager isn't going to get passed the simplicity of the idea of "slave free" as a rule, and that is the exact impression i got from D in this book. Here's to hoping she grows up.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It doesn't boggle the mind. She's a 16 year old kid. It's exactly what a kid would do, they would have an idea of what they think right or wrong is, but lack the ability to see the fruits of their convictions all the way through. Remember, we saw the same kinda thing from Joff when he thought beheading Ned Stark would be a good way to express strength to his people. Both were good ideas, but the kids went about it the wrong way.

A teenager isn't going to get passed the simplicity of the idea of "slave free" as a rule, and that is the exact impression i got from D in this book. Here's to hoping she grows up.

I get that she has to have some level of growth before she can be a good ruler. But I just see her making the same stupid mistakes over and over. Has she learned anything?

[Lord Godric]

Can you be a Mary Sue still if you don't do anything at all for an entire book?

[BarristanTheBold]

I never had a problem with her flawlessness. Some of the characters who have 'flaws' are superficially flawed. For instance, Arya is supposed to be ugly. But really, she's a child, how does anyone know what Arya will look like when she grows up? Ned compared her with Lyanna, so who knows. Uglyness isn't really much of a flaw anyway, especially considering her brain makes her a bit of a wunderkind.

Jon is a 'bastard' but again, that's not really a character flaw. Tyrion is a dwarf who is ugly, which is much more of an impairing flaw. But he's also a genius with a bleeding heart and rapier wit, and he's got the Lannister name to protect him for most of the series.

A lot of the flaws aren't really character flaws that impair the character. Not like Cersi or Eddard, who have seriously impaired judgments about the world.

[L13]

Her pedigree comes from an evil empire who sent slaves to mine inside active volcanoes. She has no right to think herself better than the Ghiskari on account of blood and birth. Even a lot of her more immediate forefathers and relatives were hardly paragons of admiring virtues. Her husband, who was always dear to her heart, is a killer and pillager who himself supported slavery and was going to fund her return to Westeros with gold made in slave trade. The fact that the Ghiskari treated slaves inexcusably cruelly doesn't give her the right to be the judge, jury and executioner of the Slaver Bay.

Wait. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your line of thinking seems to go like this:

She wants to abolish slavery, how presumptuous of her! She has no right, and her disgust at the gross injustice of slavery is in fact megalomania. Also, she is no better than the slavers she despises because her ancestors used to own slaves too.

...Um, where do I start? This is crazy logic from start to finish.

Yes, Daenerys makes little effort to get to know and understand her subjects. Framing her prejudice in terms we can understand and relate to--paternalistic neocolonialism, civilising mission, cultural imperialism, etc.--is temptingly easy, but the truth is, she is not enforcing a coherent set of cultural values in Meereen. She is not a coloniser because (one) she doesn't have the support of a vast and technologically advanced empire, nor (two) does she represent the political interests of anyone but herself, Daenerys Targaryen the individual, and (three) she herself is the product of a number of clashing cultures, and is therefore quite different from the proponents of Eurocentrism who, in the 19th century, saw remaking whole peoples in their likeness as the only solution to the problem of cultural diversity. (We, their enlightened progeny, know the solution is a principle called 'cultural pluralism' and try to act in accordance with it as rarely as possible--but I digress.) Also, while she's not trying to understand the local culture, she's not trying to destroy it either; she's focusing her efforts on a single, if significant, change that she feels strongly about. She doesn't have much of an agenda beyond that.

I'm not saying the parallels aren't there in the text, because they are, and I'm not saying the choice between two things which the reader knows to be wrong--condoning slavery and telling people their cultural identity is wrong--isn't a difficult and thought-provoking one, because it is. But I think a lot of people here, in their haste to condemn Daenerys as short-sighted and arrogant, are kind of glossing over the intrinsic evil of slavery (or at least over the fact that Dany's reason for outlawing slavery is that she sees it as morally wrong--and that we, the readers, in the real world, agree with her).

Let me remind you that Braavos was founded by runaway slaves. And that Vogarro's whore has one message for Dany: "Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon." And that when the fighting pits are reopened, Barsena Blackhair has to fight a boar because no woman will agree to face her for money--which implies there was no shortage of female opponents for her before slaves were given the right to refuse to be sent to their deaths.

You may want to believe that by abolishing slavery Dany is trampling on something sacred and pure, and that she stubbornly refuses to accept the fact that her people are different from her, and that she needs to adapt to their culture instead of adapting their culture to herself, but it sounds to me like there are plenty of slaves in Essos who do not want to be slaves! Does this sound like a universally observed if quirky cultural practice to you? Because I'd sooner describe it as a tear in the social fabric of the Free Cities.

As for Dany not having the moral high ground because of who her ancestors were--what does that say about the opinions white Americans are allowed to hold on slavery in your bizarre world, I wonder? Dany may come from a line of evil, crazy people, but she has first-hand experience with slavery. And that is where her moral belief comes from. (Not that you need first-hand experience with slavery to know it is wrong.)

I suppose my opinion on the subject has become clear by now: I readily concede that in ADWD Dany makes many mistakes, acts immaturely and displays a staggering lack of political acumen, and I am not blind to the way she fits the white-saviour trope, nor am I trying to shut down the discussion of the moral implications of her unilateral and socially divisive crusade for justice. But I can't fault her for sticking to her guns because she believes her cause is just--and I happen to agree with her.

[Rinso]

snip

You don't get it. It's not about wether slavery is bad - that's irrelevant. It's about the right she has to act and think like a savior while actually making everything worse than it had been. She liberated the Slaver Bay and brought death, blood, torment and disease on a scale that made the training of the Unsullied to look like not such a big deal. It's about offering no real political and economical substitute and letting anarchy and bloodlust to rule. It's about the fact that she not only didn't stop the injustice and the suffering, but her actions intensified it. Sure, slavery is bad, but her good intentions (behind which hide megalomania and vanity) actually led her to a place where it would have been better for everybody - the liberated slaves included - to just leave it alone back in ASOS.

She's not helping, she makes everything worse, but she refuses to see it and correct her ways. The scene where she went into the camp of the sick Astapori and pretended to be compassionate and caring only to return into her luxury palace a bit later and have a nice hot bath while people shat their lives out under her walls disgusts me with its hypocricy. Her whining how she's bored by the actual ruling and how annoyed she is by having to wear the traditional clothes of the Ghiskari irritate me with their arrogance. Her statements how she wants to learn about the infamous past of her wretched family only to shun Barristan's words and stubbornly cling to her false and self-righteous notions how the Usurper's Dogs are vile traitors is just appaling.

For Westeros's sake, after I saw what sort of a queen she is in Meereen, I hope she never gets the Iron Throne.

[Riverrun]

You don't get it. It's not about wether slavery is bad - that's irrelevant. It's about the right she has to act and think like a savior while actually making everything worse than it had been. She liberated the Slaver Bay and brought death, blood, torment and disease on a scale that made the training of the Unsullied to look like not such a big deal. It's about offering no real political and economical substitute and letting anarchy and bloodlust to rule. It's about the fact that she not only didn't stop the injustice and the suffering, but her actions intensified it. Sure, slavery is bad, but her good intentions (behind which hide megalomania and vanity) actually led her to a place where it would have been better for everybody - the liberated slaves included - to just leave it alone back in ASOS.

She's not helping, she makes everything worse, but she refuses to see it and correct her ways. The scene where she went into the camp of the sick Astapori and pretended to be compassionate and caring only to return into her luxury palace a bit later and have a nice hot bath while people shat their lives out under her walls disgusts me with its hypocricy. Her whining how she's bored by the actual ruling and how annoyed she is by having to wear the traditional clothes of the Ghiskari irritate me with their arrogance. Her statements how she wants to learn about the infamous past of her wretched family only to shun Barristan's words and stubbornly cling to her false and self-righteous notions how the Usurper's Dogs are vile traitors is just appaling.

For Westeros's sake, after I saw what sort of a queen she is in Meereen, I hope she never gets the Iron Throne.

That's the best wording I have seen that argument put in, and I agree with you entirely! Especially getting her soldiers to feed the sick, now her entire army is exposed to the pale mare. She is such an inconsiderate ruler. She ignores all counsel and does what she wants to do anyway, with disastrous consequences she never accepts as her fault, while mocking the culture of her people, dooming her 'children' to slow and painful deaths, and causing renegade dragons to do whatever they want because she ignored them

[L13]

You don't get it. It's not about wether slavery is bad - that's irrelevant. It's about the right she has to act and think like a savior while actually making everything worse than it had been. She liberated the Slaver Bay and brought death, blood, torment and disease on a scale that made the training of the Unsullied to look like not such a big deal. It's about offering no real political and economical substitute and letting anarchy and bloodlust to rule. It's about the fact that she not only didn't stop the injustice and the suffering, but her actions intensified it. Sure, slavery is bad, but her good intentions (behind which hide megalomania and vanity) actually led her to a place where it would have been better for everybody - the liberated slaves included - to just leave it alone back in ASOS.

She's not helping, she makes everything worse, but she refuses to see it and correct her ways. The scene where she went into the camp of the sick Astapori and pretended to be compassionate and caring only to return into her luxury palace a bit later and have a nice hot bath while people shat their lives out under her walls disgusts me with its hypocricy. Her whining how she's bored by the actual ruling and how annoyed she is by having to wear the traditional clothes of the Ghiskari irritate me with their arrogance. Her statements how she wants to learn about the infamous past of her wretched family only to shun Barristan's words and stubbornly cling to her false and self-righteous notions how the Usurper's Dogs are vile traitors is just appaling.

For Westeros's sake, after I saw what sort of a queen she is in Meereen, I hope she never gets the Iron Throne.

Oh, I get it.

That you think she "pretended to be compassionate" in the scene in the Astapori camp despite the fact that we were inside her head and could see she wasn't pretending at all speaks for itself. You would never let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

By the way, I did agree with most of what you said in my last paragraph...? Daenerys made many mistakes in ADWD. I'm not disputing that.

[Rinso]

That you think she "pretended to be compassionate" in the scene in the Astapori camp despite the fact that we were inside her head and could see she wasn't pretending at all speaks for itself. You would never let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

How else would you describe the situation? These people suffer horrible deaths because of her decisions, and all she does is to prance around them, gracing them with her divine presence while they die in awful pain and then go back to the luxury palace where her every tiny caprice is satisfied. It's hypocritical and arrogant, and awfully presumptuous of her higher stand.

Anyway, I've always said that a big part of the enjoyment of these books is in how everybody interprets the actions of the characters differently, according to their own personal views. You are clearly sympathetic and forgiving towards Dany, and that's fine, but I'm not. Perhaps it's because I judge her by the results of her actions, not by her intentions. Or perhaps it's that I find all this stuff in the Slaver's Bay to be an example how she thinks of herself as a high authority that is better than everyone else, while in fact, she's not (neither in abilities nor in ancestry).

[jellydonut]

She's not much of a Mary Sue in this one, no. She is, however, a naive, self-righteous, annoying, stubborn idiot. I hated her chapters. :tantrum:

It's gotten to the point where I *hope* she is killed in the next book. Hopefully by one of 'her' dragons. You know, the dragons she chained up. :bang:

[Angelika von Zitzewitz]

How else would you describe the situation? These people suffer horrible deaths because of her decisions, and all she does is to prance around them, gracing them with her divine presence while they die in awful pain and then go back to the luxury palace where her every tiny caprice is satisfied. It's hypocritical and arrogant, and awfully presumptuous of her higher stand.

Anyway, I've always said that a big part of the enjoyment of these books is in how everybody interprets the actions of the characters differently, according to their own personal views. You are clearly sympathetic and forgiving towards Dany, and that's fine, but I'm not. Perhaps it's because I judge her by the results of her actions, not by her intentions. Or perhaps it's that I find all this stuff in the Slaver's Bay to be an example how she thinks of herself as a high authority that is better than everyone else, while in fact, she's not (neither in abilities nor in ancestry).

[Angelika von Zitzewitz]

First let us remember in Westros or in the medieval age that is being shown Daenerys is a woman grown and she is behaving on what she was told by her brother and those that formed her, as for her meeren experience yes she made mistakes however in true medieval sense of entitlement and imperialism she acted as any prince or princess of royal blood would behave what she believes is the only correct thing ( just review King Henry the VIII who formed a new church just to get what he wanted) my only objection besides her lingering too long in Meerem was her uncharacteristic girl crush on Daario ,however she is still young and sometimes lust takes over in all aspects true to the time she acted as a Royal with the sense of entitlement just her inexperience and lack of grooming ( teaching of maestros etc) made her irrational. now I love Danearys however she irritated the crap out of me with her indecisiveness in this book!

[Ygritte's fur]

Her pedigree comes from an evil empire who sent slaves to mine inside active volcanoes. She has no right to think herself better than the Ghiskari on account of blood and birth. Even a lot of her more immediate forefathers and relatives were hardly paragons of admiring virtues. Her husband, who was always dear to her heart, is a killer and pillager who himself supported slavery and was going to fund her return to Westeros with gold made in slave trade. The fact that the Ghiskari treated slaves inexcusably cruelly doesn't give her the right to be the judge, jury and executioner of the Slaver Bay.

Which doesn't stop her in thinking of herself as the rightful ruler both of the Slaver Bay and Westeros. The only right she will ever have will be the right of a conquering warlord, that's all she's good for.

By this logic the Ghiskari treated their slaves justly - this is their way of life for thousands of years and this is how they do things. If Dany has the moral right to come and ruin the Slaver's Bay, then so did they when they attacked Missandei's island and enslaved her or when they crucified the slaves in Dany's path etc. Bottom line is that Dany is a foreigner who knows nothing of them other than "They're teh evilz!11!1" and who presumed to judge them from atop her high horse and proclaim herself their ruler without knowing anything about ruling and showed no serious desire to actually learn ("Pfff, I hate the floppy ears.", "Pfff, another ugly Meereeneese comes to complain, can't they see how bored I am?", "Pfff, I wonder what Daario's asshole tastes like..." etc. - this was the way she ruled).

And I'm not sure that I'll take kindly to having to read another two books worth of her whining. So, go Jhogo, rid me of this bitch! Not going to happen, I know, but a man has to keep his hopes up, no? Gooo Jhogo!!!

I lost patience with her in ADWD.

Ditto. Except I lost patience with her, like, two books ago.

[Ygritte's fur]

And, also, megalomania and arrogance (and I'll add racism and ignorance) can TOTALLY hide behind compassion. What about all these hundreds of thousands of missionaries who, for centuries, have been trying to "save" the "heathen" of this world with Christianity? Often bringing disease and pestilence with them? Or people who try to "save" gays from their homosexuality?

I'm sure if we saw a POV from that psycho in Norway, we'd see *him* thinking he was acting compassionately as well. NOT that I'm equating Dany with that guy. Just making the point that a lot of bad actions can be done by a doer with compassion on the brain.

And of course slavery is bad and she's a 15yr old girl (which we are reminded of frequently: "I'm just a little girl"). But damn! This learning process is tedious, and leaves behind a huge swath of death and blood.

Insofar as her being flawless: her flaws have always been her youth and her ignorance--in the begining she could only see her family's past and place in he world through her brother's eyes. She has seemed indestructible--but never flawless.

[The Khal]

You don't get it. It's not about wether slavery is bad - that's irrelevant. It's about the right she has to act and think like a savior while actually making everything worse than it had been. She liberated the Slaver Bay and brought death, blood, torment and disease on a scale that made the training of the Unsullied to look like not such a big deal. It's about offering no real political and economical substitute and letting anarchy and bloodlust to rule. It's about the fact that she not only didn't stop the injustice and the suffering, but her actions intensified it. Sure, slavery is bad, but her good intentions (behind which hide megalomania and vanity) actually led her to a place where it would have been better for everybody - the liberated slaves included - to just leave it alone back in ASOS.

She's not helping, she makes everything worse, but she refuses to see it and correct her ways. The scene where she went into the camp of the sick Astapori and pretended to be compassionate and caring only to return into her luxury palace a bit later and have a nice hot bath while people shat their lives out under her walls disgusts me with its hypocricy. Her whining how she's bored by the actual ruling and how annoyed she is by having to wear the traditional clothes of the Ghiskari irritate me with their arrogance. Her statements how she wants to learn about the infamous past of her wretched family only to shun Barristan's words and stubbornly cling to her false and self-righteous notions how the Usurper's Dogs are vile traitors is just appaling.

For Westeros's sake, after I saw what sort of a queen she is in Meereen, I hope she never gets the Iron Throne.

It is for these reasons that I sincerely hope that by the time Dany decides to make her way to Westeros, Aegon has already conquered it.

[Silverin]

You don't get it. It's not about wether slavery is bad - that's irrelevant. It's about the right she has to act and think like a savior while actually making everything worse than it had been. She liberated the Slaver Bay and brought death, blood, torment and disease on a scale that made the training of the Unsullied to look like not such a big deal. It's about offering no real political and economical substitute and letting anarchy and bloodlust to rule. It's about the fact that she not only didn't stop the injustice and the suffering, but her actions intensified it. Sure, slavery is bad, but her good intentions (behind which hide megalomania and vanity) actually led her to a place where it would have been better for everybody - the liberated slaves included - to just leave it alone back in ASOS.

She's not helping, she makes everything worse, but she refuses to see it and correct her ways. The scene where she went into the camp of the sick Astapori and pretended to be compassionate and caring only to return into her luxury palace a bit later and have a nice hot bath while people shat their lives out under her walls disgusts me with its hypocricy. Her whining how she's bored by the actual ruling and how annoyed she is by having to wear the traditional clothes of the Ghiskari irritate me with their arrogance. Her statements how she wants to learn about the infamous past of her wretched family only to shun Barristan's words and stubbornly cling to her false and self-righteous notions how the Usurper's Dogs are vile traitors is just appaling.

For Westeros's sake, after I saw what sort of a queen she is in Meereen, I hope she never gets the Iron Throne.

:agree:

About her going ou and helping. She went out to help because she believed she couldnt get inflected (Targaryen don't get sick!!). But she dragged her most important advisers with her to help, and even she knew they are not Targaryen (even though we know the Targ dont get sick is not true either), it was such a moronic deed, and it had no other reason just to parade that "Look at me everyone I am such a good hearted queen", but it could have costed way much more, the life of Barristan or Grey Worm or the rest. Wonder wether if she hadnt believed that she cant get sick, she would have gone out to help.

Anyway I actually liked the Dany chapters in ADwD I liked when The Qarth guy (Xaro?) told her about his friend who is basically forced to work on the fields despite the fact that he was a relly good merchant, so he is basically a slave, it is just he is Dany's.

And I liked it when they were at the Pit and Dany was all omg it is so horrible what a horrible culture how can they like it yadda yadda, and just behind her her closest men Strong Belvast and the Dothraki maids were apriciating it just the same way as the Meerrenesse. I liked that while she was constantly on the what a horrible culture this Meerren was, it was finally pointed out that some of the people she has around her is just as "barbaric".

I liked it that her shallowness was pointed out as well, she was all over Daario, while not even trying to appriciat Quentyn because he doesn't look dashing, and her thought that she wish the Dornish prince would be the hot one, Gerrin.

Neverthless I dont want to see her close to the Iron Throne either.Mistakes here or there she did way too much, and at the end she didnt learned much from them either.

Her biggest mistake was that she didnt do anything to try to restore the economy. The Slaver's Bay is an area where the economy is based on slaves, pit fights. The very reason for it is becuase on that land they cant grow crops, and ironically it is all because the dragon's (such as Dany's). if the people of Meerren don't want to die from hunger, they need the slavery back. Dany didnt even try to find something else that could replace it and could mean enough income to buy food. She was just all, no slavery, no pit fighting. She could for example reopen the pits but forbid the fights that go till death. But she didnt try to compromise at all. At the beginning she didnt do any compromission (If it is not the way I want it won't happen), and at the end she compeletly gave in to Hizdar and she didnt even try to at least accomplish some of her points until the very end where she again just flat out denied everything that has something to do with the Meerrenese culture (tokar, the food(though she can thank her life for that), pit fights, slavery.) And I think neither is good, both of them are extremes. There is a saying in my language that (I tried to translate it, it is a saying about instruments but it is used to differnet ways as well): If you overstrain the chord it will snap, if you let it loose it won't give a sound. Well what Dany was doing exatly this two. Overstrain and let it too loose.