[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[The Lost Lord]

I’m *really* curious about what will happen when Tyrion and Cersei see each other again. I actually think their relationship is one of the most interesting of the series, because they both seem to hate each other so much, which is especially interesting considering how much they love Jaime. I have no doubt that if it came down to it, they would both delight in tearing the other limb from limb and then probably fuck Jaime forever after. So bizarre, and so interesting, in my opinion.

Really? I always thought it was the least interesting -- they just really hate each other. There are none of the subtleties of the Tyrion/Tywin or Jaime/Cersei relationships. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion never ended up seeing Cersei again -- it's the Jaime/Cersei relationship that needs closure.

[Kingslayer]

That sick joke of a marriage needs to end, any way it can. Let's face it, he's a dwarf with a gag-inducing face (can you imagine what will happen if HBO is actually faithful to his nose injury? hard to look at, indeed...); but he could look like, well, Joffrey, and never have a happy marriage with Sansa. His family killed everyone she loved. The north remembers.

[rue721]

I always thought it was the least interesting -- they just really hate each other. There are none of the subtleties of the Tyrion/Tywin or Jaime/Cersei relationships. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion never ended up seeing Cersei again -- it's the Jaime/Cersei relationship that needs closure.

Well, I'll also confess that I really enjoy Cersei -- knowing that, maybe it isn't such a shock that I'm interested in her relationship with Tyrion?

I actually think both their relationships with Jaime are the least interesting. Of course, Jaime is who they both wish they were -- powerful, strong, beloved, etc. Something that I think is interesting when it comes to Cersei/Tyrion is how Cersei will always make a point that Tyrion is hideous and undesirable, and Tyrion will always make a point that she's stupid, and they both call each other arrogant. Considering Cersei's greatest "strength" is her beauty and Tyrion's is his cleverness, and each of them have the great virtue of being surprisingly indomitable, I think that's ironic. And it makes me think of Cersei's beauty and Tyrion's cleverness in comparison with each other, which I also think is an interesting idea. I think of Cersei's beauty as being as much of a curse as a blessing, because without it she wouldn't be such an easily visible, hate-able target. I wonder if Tyrion's cleverness is just as dangerous? In ADwD, he's constantly getting smacked and whipped and beaten for backtalk, and meanwhile, Cersei is paraded naked through the streets. To me, Cersei and Tyrion are opposite sides of the same coin, and they're most interesting/the most is revealed about each of them when they're contrasted with each other. I think how they feel about each other reveals a lot about how they feel about themselves -- and I think they're much more similar than they wished they were.

[Été]

To me, Cersei and Tyrion are opposite sides of the same coin, and they're most interesting/the most is revealed about each of them when they're contrasted with each other. I think how they feel about each other reveals a lot about how they feel about themselves -- and I think they're much more similar than they wished they were.

Mate, that's pretty deep right there. I like how you think, ser.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I've finally figured out a Tyrion + Sansa ending I could stomach. Here it is:

After the dust (snow?) has settled on the epic War Between Good and Evil:

(1) Littlefinger is dead. He died before his Sansa + Harry plans reach fruition.

(2) Tyrion has Casterly Rock and is recognized as Tywin's heir.

(3) Robb's will is recognized and upheld, which means Sansa is disinherited. She feels cast out and haz a sad.

(4) Tyrion offers to take her back, and Sansa, always looking for a home and in need of a helping hand, agrees.

(5) Sansa is indeed dutiful. She lies down, spreads her legs, and thinks about Winterfell. The marriage is consummated, although Tyrion is left with the impression that something is amiss.

(6) Sansa falls pregnant, and in time delivers a healthy male child. She insists he be named Eddard.

(7) Tyrion dies.

(8) Sansa, as the Lady of Casterly Rock, will rule in her son's stead until he reaches his majority.

The best part?

(9) Eddard is not Tyrion's son.

People become suspicious when the child measures 6'5" at age 12, but since no one knows Tyrion's bastards, there's no comparison.

Do unto the Lannisters as they have done to you, and the rest of Westeros.

B)

[Raksha the Demon]

I'd forgotten about Robb's will, which supposedly disinherits Sansa from the Winterfell succession because she was married to Tyrion. Does anyone know if this will was actually set down, or just something Robb was thinking about doing? It would surprise me that the will was duly written and witnessed, since Tywin seemed to have had no knowledge of it - he ordered the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to give Tyrion, and thus the Lannisters, control of Winterfell via a son of Sansa; and that will would negate his plan. Not to mention Littlefinger doesn't seem to know of it either. Rickon too is left out of the will, since Robb believed him dead at the time he would have written the will...

And if the will was written and kept safe, could Sansa still keep her place in the Winterfell line of succession if her Lannister marriage is annulled? I would think that Robb would have added a clause allowing for that...

[Rarm]

I'd forgotten about Robb's will, which supposedly disinherits Sansa from the Winterfell succession because she was married to Tyrion. Does anyone know if this will was actually set down, or just something Robb was thinking about doing? It would surprise me that the will was duly written and witnessed, since Tywin seemed to have had no knowledge of it - he ordered the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to give Tyrion, and thus the Lannisters, control of Winterfell via a son of Sansa; and that will would negate his plan. Not to mention Littlefinger doesn't seem to know of it either. Rickon too is left out of the will, since Robb believed him dead at the time he would have written the will...

And if the will was written and kept safe, could Sansa still keep her place in the Winterfell line of succession if her Lannister marriage is annulled? I would think that Robb would have added a clause allowing for that...

This is interesting I'm guessing if Robbs will ever comes into play it will stir up a lot of stuff. He has Jon named as his heir which is a huge factor I wont get deeply into. Rickon being alive changes things (bran too but we dont know if he will ever leave the far north) if rickon is produced the north will rally to him. Im 50/50 about Sansas marriage to Tyrion being declared invalid so hypothetically if it was I wuld say that her being disinherited would be null and void since the reason for her disinheritance was her marriage. Seeing how loyal to the Starks the northmen are I think they would agree that she should be restored to the line of succession. If she remains Lady Lannister, then no.

[Raksha the Demon]

Of course, much depends on the surviving Stark children's affiliations. If Rickon shows up with Shaggydog in Manderly's custody, that could be a signal to many Stark bannermen disillusioned with the Bolton regime in the North to rally. If Sansa shows up as the wife of Harry-the-Heir, with the men of the Vale behind her, she would, I think, be added to the succession and might have a good chance at getting custody of her little brother. If dead-for ten-seconds and recovered-from-wounds Jon leaves the NW and makes a claim for Winterfell, he could have the support of the NW, the Wildlings, and Stannis (presuming Stannis is still alive) and maybe he'll marry either Val or Asha.

Two possible monkey wrenches in the already complex issue of Stark succession: What if Jeyne Westerling really did carry Robb's child (the Jeyne that Jaime met could have been a fake) and she delivered a son? And what if poor Jeyne Poole, a.k.a. Arya Stark, carries Ramsey Bolton's child)?

I do think there's a chance that Sansa and Tyrion might stay married; but I doubt they'd ever claim and hold Winterfell. There might be a poetic justice in Sansa's being the Lady of Casterly Rock; but I think she'd prefer being the Lady of the Eyrie through a marriage to Harry-the-Heir, Queen of Westeros through a marriage to Young Griff, or Mrs. Sandor Clegane....

[Kalasin]

Robb legitimized Jon (we think), so theoretically that would negate both Bran and Rickon's claim to the seat, not to mention Sansa's (since Jon would be the oldest surviving heir). But that depends on Greatjon EVER getting away from his captors and people actually recognizing the decree as legit (especially since it was passed based on the false premise that Bran and Rickon were dead) and Jon accepting it. Stannis seems to think people would rally to Jon just the same as they would rally to the trueborn kids, so it's an option.

Re Sansa and Tyrion, I always had high hopes for them, and saw that story going differently than it did. They made such a deal out of him being kind to her and her realizing that. I thought she was eventually going to find her peace and be happy with him, and it would be the growth/journey of her character, because it would be the opposite of everything that she had dreamed of, as far as handsome knights, etc. It could still happen of course, but maybe it's not in the cards for them, personality-wise.

[voodooqueen126]

To be honest, by the time that could potentially happen, the North will have been so decimated...I'm not sure there'll be an army left.

And right now, WF belongs to Roose Bolton. Who's the biggest turncoat the North has ever seen. And whilst Stannis is attacking, I don't see the Northmen rising up in rebellion against him.

I'm' just not sure that the North are as organised as you think, tbh.

(And who would have a better claim? The Starks don't seem to have many cousins - the Karstarks? It's still pretty far removed)

But I suspect the point is moot anyhow - I really think that if anyone survives the series, it'll be Rickon, so there wouldn't be any protest there. And another point - he's only what? 5? 6? He'll need a "Regent" or "Castellan" or whatever the hell the word is. Someone to run the castle till he comes of age. Who better than his older sister?

BTW, did we ever find out if Edmure's wife had a boy or a girl?

You know that Edmure's wife hasn't given birth yet makes me wonder if it has been less than 9 months since the Red Wedding.

[Silverin]

I've finally figured out a Tyrion + Sansa ending I could stomach. Here it is:

After the dust (snow?) has settled on the epic War Between Good and Evil:

(1) Littlefinger is dead. He died before his Sansa + Harry plans reach fruition.

(2) Tyrion has Casterly Rock and is recognized as Tywin's heir.

(3) Robb's will is recognized and upheld, which means Sansa is disinherited. She feels cast out and haz a sad.

(4) Tyrion offers to take her back, and Sansa, always looking for a home and in need of a helping hand, agrees.

(5) Sansa is indeed dutiful. She lies down, spreads her legs, and thinks about Winterfell. The marriage is consummated, although Tyrion is left with the impression that something is amiss.

(6) Sansa falls pregnant, and in time delivers a healthy male child. She insists he be named Eddard.

(7) Tyrion dies.

(8) Sansa, as the Lady of Casterly Rock, will rule in her son's stead until he reaches his majority.

The best part?

(9) Eddard is not Tyrion's son.

People become suspicious when the child measures 6'5" at age 12, but since no one knows Tyrion's bastards, there's no comparison.

Do unto the Lannisters as they have done to you, and the rest of Westeros.

B)

I would totally like one like that, exept since we know that Tyrion has a very big fondness to drinks, we could say that the one time Sansa did "spread her legs and thought of Winterfell" was a moment when Tyrion was totally drunk. Or at least that is what she tells him.

[littlebird_]

On the other hand, when he was signing those papers, he was laughing like it was all a big farce. I don’t know how to read it. I guess he was laughing at himself? And then he wrote out the Lord title in his own blood, b/c he got it through blood?

Exactly, Tyrion is clever enough to see the irony there and self-deprecating enough to make a joke out of it, look at me getting Casterly Rock through blood HAHA

Personally, I would mention it ASAP. Tyrion's value to Dany will start out fairly high (when he still has lots of new info to share), then dip (once she feels she knows enough), then hopefully rise again (as he proves he's useful as an adviser/employee generally). I think Tyrion would be best off giving Dany the worst information about himself while his value is highest -- which is basically when he first arrives and hasn't told her much else. If he waits until she's not sure how useful he is otherwise (when he's told her as much as she feels she needs to know but hasn't yet proven himself as an employee) she could just use that information as an excuse to kill him. If she finds out from someone else, she might also wonder if he's trying to betray her and kept everything secret for a reason. I think the risks are too high for keeping that information secret long. Though, I mean, if he goes to see her and she's meanwhile having a rant about tearing every Stark limb from limb and throwing in their wives and husbands for good measure, or something, yeah, he should probably wait. :P.

When you show up looking like a demon and on account of a horrifying murder rap, maybe you should lay off on stories that basically boil down to: that 12-year-old is a BITCH!

In this case some bad things do work in his favor, he killed Tywin Lannister, Dany is not going to actually fault him for that one, he killed Joffrey, he is not going to be faulted for that one either, Dany knows about crazy relatives who really shouldn't be in power so maybe they'll bond over that. He just has to tell them about Sansa also, perhaps say it was an arranged marriage and that the girl ran away. But with Tyrion you never really know if he will add a sarcastic and misogynistic comment in the end. The real problem starts when they start making value judgements on the others like Jaime and the Stark family in general. Tyrion might be angry at Jaime but will he be YES OFF WITH HIS HEAD MY QUEEN, will he have the same approach with the Starks?

Despite everything Tyrion has always been a good little lion, he might have hated his family's methods but he did help them always, can he be that loyal to a Targaryen queen?

The things that drive me away from the character are when GRRM gives him too many strokes of luck, or makes him totally passive in his storylines, or makes him into some buffoon telling too many OTT one-liners and somersaulting around. If he becomes a truly bad person, I won’t care about him any less, I’ll just think it’s a tragedy – maybe the biggest in the series. Lots of characters are killed, but if he really does end up losing his soul, we’ll have seen a fundamentally good person dismantled bit by bit and made into a monster – how horrifying is that? I don’t know when I’ll decide that he’s lost his soul. I guess by saying that I mean I don’t think he’s there yet.

I do think that is the crux of his story, he starts out as the likable Lannister with a good heart but his journey has taken him to dark places and we have to wait and see if he does go back to kill them all or he goes back to resolve his issues.

re. Robb's will, I don't know what to make of it but it will come out soon, just like the poison in Sansa's hairnet it does have a role to play but we can not be sure of the role exactly. If the North declares Rickon and then the will comes out with Jon legitimized does the North accept Jon or is there a division and internal fighting between the North which Jon would not allow. I am not sure how important it is that Robb disinherited Sansa, with or without the will with her brothers alive her line in the succession is not all that high up, and I can not see her contesting it once Rickon or Jon is declared Lord of Winterfell, she would just want to go home. but then why leave the reveal to a certain time if it is not going to cause some drama, so its going to create problems but I can not see how yet.

[Silverin]

re. Robb's will, I don't know what to make of it but it will come out soon, just like the poison in Sansa's hairnet it does have a role to play but we can not be sure of the role exactly. If the North declares Rickon and then the will comes out with Jon legitimized does the North accept Jon or is there a division and internal fighting between the North which Jon would not allow. I am not sure how important it is that Robb disinherited Sansa, with or without the will with her brothers alive her line in the succession is not all that high up, and I can not see her contesting it once Rickon or Jon is declared Lord of Winterfell, she would just want to go home. but then why leave the reveal to a certain time if it is not going to cause some drama, so its going to create problems but I can not see how yet.

Since Robb talked toCat mainly about Jon and Sansa, but there was still a chance that Jeyne might be pregnant, I think the will was something like this.

He legitimised Jon as a Stark. He didnt name him his heir, since if his wife bears a child, it will be the heir. But if she does not (and since Rickon and Bran said to be dead), his heir would be Jon automatically.

But I think in case, he disinhertited Sansa, both he and Cat agreed that they cant allow the Lannisters to get Winterfell. And that is the only way he could make that sure. Jon might dont want to break his vows, his wife might wont be pregnant or maybe especially if the Lannisters have a claim for Winterfell they might try to assassinate Jon and his possible child, in order to accomplish their own claims. But with disinheriting Sansa after them comes the Royce in the Vale. Even though he does not know them they are still better than a Lannister.

Since Rickon and Bran is alive it changes things. If Jeyne was pregant it is her child that is the heir, wether it is a boy or a girl.

If she is not and Jon is named as a Stark that is a bit blurry to me, but I doubt Jon would go ever against Rickon. He would be more like his adviser, or regent. Rickon is still a child so he obviously wont actually rule the North.

How would it change LFs plans? That is a good question. But even if Sansa is disinherited, which means she and her children has no right for Winterfell, she still could be used to build alliance with the North and the Riverlands, especially if her husband is not a Lannister.

EDIT: And even if she is disinherited, I think if she gets out of this marriage with Tyrion the North would accept her. And it sounds strange but she might be even a little bit happy for it, since she wont be used to get Winterfell ever again.

[littlebird_]

Since Rickon and Bran is alive it changes things. If Jeyne was pregant it is her child that is the heir, wether it is a boy or a girl.

If she is not and Jon is named as a Stark that is a bit blurry to me, but I doubt Jon would go ever against Rickon. He would be more like his adviser, or regent. Rickon is still a child so he obviously wont actually rule the North.

This is where I have a problem with it, if there is a hidden will somewhere in the story that can change the line of succession its reveal has to have a consequence that is more than 'dude he's my brother of course he can be Lord and I'll be his regent'. Otherwise it is the most useless plot device ever, what does it achieve? Rickon still ends up Lord of Winterfell and there is no conflict.

How would it change LFs plans? That is a good question. But even if Sansa is disinherited, which means she and her children has no right for Winterfell, she still could be used to build alliance with the North and the Riverlands, especially if her husband is not a Lannister.

I don't think LF ever intended for the North, he could not hope to get the North and have influence there with all the friends her father had being around, the best place to control Sansa is the Vale.

EDIT: And even if she is disinherited, I think if she gets out of this marriage with Tyrion the North would accept her. And it sounds strange but she might be even a little bit happy for it, since she wont be used to get Winterfell ever again.

I think she would be extremely happy, she gets out of this situation of everyone running after her and using her for her claim, she has a brother as Lord of Winterfell meaning she can actually go home and once she is there she can request an annulment and the North would accept her, it is like the ideal ending for Sansa. since Rickon is young, she can be a mother figure like she is with Robert and just live out her days in peace.

[Silverin]

This is where I have a problem with it, if there is a hidden will somewhere in the story that can change the line of succession its reveal has to have a consequence that is more than 'dude he's my brother of course he can be Lord and I'll be his regent'. Otherwise it is the most useless plot device ever, what does it achieve? Rickon still ends up Lord of Winterfell and there is no conflict.

I think the main conflict will be more about Sansa and not about Jon. But even so there will be quite some time, till Rickon shows up so till then it might be that Jon will be the one whom will be supported as Lord of Winterfell and KIng in the North, due to the will, and even if Jeyne is pregnant I doubt she would come out too soon, since it would be way too dangerous right now.

Not to mention naming him a Stark, I think to Jon it would be extremly meaningful. He always wanted to be Neds true son, Robbs, Brans, Rickons, Aryas, Sansas brother, and with the will he will be legally that, even though as far as he knows most of them are already dead.

But it could still lead to some conflict especially Stoneheart on the loose. If she can get Sansa, and make sure the marriage is annuled (and she does not have a clue about a possible Jeyne, or Rickon and Bran), she might very much try to work against Jon, to make sure her daughter is the one that gets Winterfell.

I think she would be extremely happy, she gets out of this situation of everyone running after her and using her for her claim, she has a brother as Lord of Winterfell meaning she can actually go home and once she is there she can request an annulment and the North would accept her, it is like the ideal ending for Sansa. since Rickon is young, she can be a mother figure like she is with Robert and just live out her days in peace.

Yes, not to mention as long as she does not choose someone with a very high social standing she would be sort of free to marry, whom she wants.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think the main conflict will be more about Sansa and not about Jon. But even so there will be quite some time, till Rickon shows up so till then it might be that Jon will be the one whom will be supported as Lord of Winterfell and KIng in the North, due to the will, and even if Jeyne is pregnant I doubt she would come out too soon, since it would be way too dangerous right now.

Not to mention naming him a Stark, I think to Jon it would be extremly meaningful. He always wanted to be Neds true son, Robbs, Brans, Rickons, Aryas, Sansas brother, and with the will he will be legally that, even though as far as he knows most of them are already dead.

But it could still lead to some conflict especially Stoneheart on the loose. If she can get Sansa, and make sure the marriage is annuled (and she does not have a clue about a possible Jeyne, or Rickon and Bran), she might very much try to work against Jon, to make sure her daughter is the one that gets Winterfell.

Yes, not to mention as long as she does not choose someone with a very high social standing she would be sort of free to marry, whom she wants.

I am not at all sure that Stoneheart is mentally capable of campaigning for Sansa's succession rights; she seems to be limited to basic emotions, such as rage and desire for vengeance; probably because she was dead for awhile before Beric revived her.

[littlebird_]

I think the main conflict will be more about Sansa and not about Jon. But even so there will be quite some time, till Rickon shows up so till then it might be that Jon will be the one whom will be supported as Lord of Winterfell and KIng in the North, due to the will, and even if Jeyne is pregnant I doubt she would come out too soon, since it would be way too dangerous right now.

The thing is I just can not see Sansa herself creating a problem, there is the possibility you mentioned of Lady Stoneheart but I am not sure how Sansa would react to her mother using her like that and other than that there is no reason for Sansa's claim to be a problem because she doesn't want it. It is different than Jon's case because he would let rickon have it but deep down he does also want to be Lord of Winterfell with Sansa she just doesn't want it, its the basis of all the hardships she has had to go through. A possible way for Sansa to be a problem is through Littlefinger but even then the minute she hears that Jon and/or Rickon can claim the North she will not go along with his plan.

By the time Rickon is found and declared or by the time Jon is reborn or whatever or by the time the will itself is known to everyone I think Sansa and Littlefinger's arc will be close to completion or maybe this news will be what moves Sansa forward to act against him. But in the end, she would not contest the will on her own and she would not let Littlefinger do it either. Perhaps Lady Stoneheart, that is one scenario I can not really determine.

[Silverin]

I am not at all sure that Stoneheart is mentally capable of campaigning for Sansa's succession rights; she seems to be limited to basic emotions, such as rage and desire for vengeance; probably because she was dead for awhile before Beric revived her.

Just because she is all about rage and vengeance does not mean she is stupid. If she gets Sansa dont you think she would try anything she can to make her marriage to the hated Lannisters nothing and get her to Winterfell?

In AFfC it was shown that one of the BwB members is stationared in Riverrun. During Cersei's shame of walk, you can hear HOT PIE, and since he is part of the BwB now sending him to KL might has some purpose. I think Stoneheart did not loose her brain the BwB is planning for something, and that makes her even more dangerous, and important, than if she was just sinply a brainless zombie.

Not to mention she and her men are quite succesful in hanging Freys and bloody mummers that they come across, I think they are quite cauitious, and succesful.

[rue721]

Dany knows about crazy relatives who really shouldn't be in power so maybe they'll bond over that.

LOL I don't really think she'd be that relaxed about it. His brother killed a king (her father) and he's killed a king's hand (his father), and here she is, a precarious queen...I wouldn't really want to hear about royal-and-royal-adjacent killing sprees if I were her! Honestly, I think handling the issue of him killing his father is going to be more complicated than the marriage to Sansa. Everybody gets married, and a Lannister marrying a Stark shouldn't be a shocker. But not everyone puts an arrow through their father's belly just after killing their mistress on the way from escaping a death sentence for killing their nephew, you know?

I don't know when he should bring that up or how he should paint it. Additionally:

But with Tyrion you never really know if he will add a sarcastic and misogynistic comment in the end.

I think trying to explain his father's murder is when he'd end up with his foot in his mouth. He always tries to make some creepy joke about it, and knowing him he'll toss in some reference to giving Cercei his head tongue first or some gross shit, and make it all sound a million times worse than it even was (which is pretty bad). Oh, and maybe also throw in a reference to killing his mother, too, for shits and giggles. Just in case you didn't already think he had done every bad thing it was possible to do.

Also, it's going to look terrible that he signed away all his father's belonging after killing his father. This is a girl whose father was brutally murdered (by Jaime, for god's sake!) and who has been taught her whole life to honor his legacy by regaining everything he had and avenging him. Tyrion just brutally murdered his own father and basically gave all his father's things away and is now making a mockery of it with his ridiculous jokes. I don't think that could possibly go over well! But with Dany, you never know.

Regardless, the being pushed into an unexpected marriage for familial gain thing, though, I think she'll get.

Despite everything Tyrion has always been a good little lion, he might have hated his family's methods but he did help them always, can he be that loyal to a Targaryen queen?

I would say no. And I think in the end, if it comes between the Lannisters and *anybody* Tyrion will ultimately choose the Lannisters. He hates Cercei (and actually, I want to start a thread sometime soon about the pair of them, because I've been reading her chapters in ADwD and see so many parallels) but I think being part of the family is the basis of his favorite parts of himself (he was always really proud of his career, for example -- kind of ridiculously so, since his father basically arranged it for him, but wtvr) and he won't ever want to let that go. I think also he proved he *can't* let it go, literally *can't*, when he bought back his freedom with the Casterly Rock gold and Lannister titles. So, in short, if I were Dany I would put him in an impenetrable cage until he'd given all his information, then I'd chop off his head and send it to Cercei as a gift. But knowing Dany, she'll do the exact opposite.

I do think that is the crux of his story, he starts out as the likable Lannister with a good heart but his journey has taken him to dark places and we have to wait and see if he does go back to kill them all or he goes back to resolve his issues.

I don't know...I've been re-reading A Clash of Kings, because frankly, I am just totally lost in ADwD and can't really remember enough backstory to make heads or tails of most of it. In ACoK, he already seems to me to be basically how he is now -- a good heart, but utterly ruthless once you cross him. I feel, though, that he always *wanted* to be a good person before, to do his job well, to be treated with respect -- just generally to be upstanding. Now, it doesn't really seem as though those things matter to him...or, they matter, but in this "I wish they didn't, because they're just a fantasy" kind of way. Like how he's kind to Penny despite himself -- he can't bring himself to crush her spirit, but at the same time, he's almost mad at himself for indulging in that kindness. The same weirdness goes on about the Lord title. On the one hand, obviously it matters to him, but on the other, he mocks himself the whole time he signs it. Same thing with being a sell-sword, I guess -- I don't know how he'll approach that, but it seems like at this point he's just trying to get through the day. And then he says something about how at least if you're a slave you're protected, and that he wants to shout at Penny that nobody will save anybody and it'll all get worse. I guess he's just thoroughly disillusioned now? I think maybe, since he envies Penny her delusions/innocence/trusting nature.

And then in ACoK, I also read the chapter where Sansa gets a note under her pillow saying someone has come to rescue her and to meet in the Weirwood, and she's nearly having a panic attack, and it turns out to be a drunkard, but she tries to force it into a kind of ballad romance anyway. It seems as though she is disillusioned, but it didn't break her trust the way it broke his? But then, does that count as disillusionment? It's sad to think that Sansa would ever look at Winterfell the way that Tyrion looks at Casterly Rock, but maybe that's already how she looks at it...?

[Wouter]

Wow this thread has exploded in the last 2 days ;)

I see LF's role in the coming Others conflict as similar to his role in the War of the Five Kings -- he'll keep his head down, feed the realm, make himself indispensable to the people in charge, continue to accrue more influence and power, and no one will appreciate what he's planning until the end. (Plus, I don't think GRRM would let whoever beats the Others sit down on the Iron Throne and end the series there, there has to be a political endgame.)

I wonder about this - will GRRM first resolve the major political problems in the south or will the Others be defeated first, say if Dany goes straight to the north? I would like it if the last moves in ASOIAF are indeed the final political struggles, though I doubt LF will last that long.

So what does this mean for Sansa and Tyrion? I agree with those who think that Tyrion's the fly in LF's ointment -- that they're natural rivals who have to have a final reckoning (another reason why LF has to stick around for a while). The idea of Sansa and Tyrion somehow reconciling and allying against LF seems implausible, though, so I'm still unconvinced that Sansa actually will break away from LF.

Sansa is already now somewhat creeped out by LF, and that isn't going to improve. Moreover, there is so much he had done to her family and friends and some of this will come to her attention sooner or later. And there is also Sweetrobyn, who might well be a bone of contention between them. That Sansa will break away from LF at some point seems almost a given, unless she is taken away from him by outside forces first.

Well, doesn't this apply to Sandor, too? He was a servant of the Lannisters and instrumental in Ned's arrest. He may not have hurt Sansa, but neither did he protect her. Etc. Frankly, I am not a fan of San/San and realistically speaking it should have had many of the the same problems as with Tyrion. But Sansa is clearly somewhat attracted to him...

Sandor is not a Lannister, only a servant of theirs. He took part in Ned's arrest, but he wasn't instrumental per se - Littlefinger and Slynt were, Sandor was just one of many Lannister men.

And Sandor actually did protect Sansa on a number of occasions, sometimes while neglecting his duty as Joff's sworn sword and protector:

-he stopped Sansa from committing suicide by pushing Joffrey off the battlements in late AGOT; but did not inform Joffrey nor Cersei about Sansa's attempted regicide, which is clearly a failure to do his duty as Sansa was a threat to Joffrey and the Lannisters didn't realise

-he lied to Joffrey about 'bad luck on your nameday' to stop her getting beaten over Dontos

-in the riot at KL, instead of trying to reach Joffrey as soon as possible to protect him as was his duty, he went to Sansa instead and acted as a sworn sword for her instead of him

-when he catched Sansa running loose in the Red Keep at night, he himself made up an excuse ("she couldn't sleep with all that noise") for her when his fellow white sword demanded to know what she was doing out at night

All in all, while Sandor was a man in Lannister service he clearly did what he realistically could do to protect her, even from the Lannisters. Tyrion protected her from beatings, but he was also guarding her tightly and he has much more power in the Lannister hierarchy.

I think the difference is this: while Tyrion was relatively kind to her, that was always in the context of serving the (war) goals of his family; Sansa was a valuable hostage who should have been cared for. But if Jaime would have been killed by Robb, he would have had Sansa beheaded, in all likelyhood.

Sandor on the other hand, was dependant on his Lannister employers for his station in life, but when Sansa's goals clashed with Lannister ones he tended to choose to help Sansa (covering up her sneaking around, her attempting to kill Joffrey, to save Dontos, protect her instead of Joffrey). Sure he didn't offer to help her escape until he was a drunken deserter himself, but he did go a lot further than Tyrion.