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[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion


Septa Morgaine

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In regards to Tyrions fate I think when/if he meets up with Dany she will most likely hold him as a prisoner of sorts I don't see her just allowing him to just chill on her small council without proving himself loyal/not a danger then again this is Dany and she has made worse decisions.Sometimes I honestly doubt after ADWD that he and Sansa will ever meet again. They are a world away from eachother and if the pacing continues as it is .. It just seems like a stretch to me and if they do I highly doubt they would reconcile their marriage it just doesn't fit to me I dunno. I personally think Tyrion will die before the series is done and if he doesn't .... I just don't think he deserves to be with her.I'm not a tyrion hater at all(love his chapters but not him i guess xD) and I think he deserves to be loved but he's not just ugly on the outside right now. People talk about Sansa being shallow .... But she's a twelve year old girl who grew up believing in fairytales and true love. Her parents were in love why shouldn't she hope for a man to love her like that? Yes it's unrealistic in this world and she's knows that now, but that's a normal way to think when you're a little girl. You grow out of it not everybody is born an Arya Stark ;p

Now Tyrion has just as many shallow thoughts as her, and he is a grown man. He wants women to accept him the way he is, which I understand, but he can't look past ugliness himself and is always picking apart people's looks or shortcomings. He objectifies women (along with a lot of other men) but seems to consider it just so because he has been treated like shit for how he looks. Two negatives don't make a positive. As reading material its great but it is still a major character flaw IMO. A much bigger one than a twelve year old going through a disastrous naive phase.

Yeah, i can't stand the whole "Sansa should end up with Tyrion and the only reason she doesn't like him is because she is shallow"

Sansa's internal monologue makes it clear that it's about the fact that Tyrion is Tywin's son and Cersei's brother. Furthermore even though this is not a PC thing to say... would you like to be a married to a dwarf? to have a 50% of having children who are dwarves (which is a disadvantage today, even worse in a medieval society where fighting is so important)

I feel like they are sort of punishing her for being feminine (not a cool little tomboy like Arya) I mean why shouldn't Sansa get a man she is attracted to or in love with?* She's got a crush on Sandor for crying out loud, so she is hardly judging men on the way they look.

*aside from the fact that she is in a patriarchal medieval society and has no freedom to choose her husband.

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Re: LF, well he worked very hard to ensure that Tyrion would be blamed for Joff's murder and executed or forced to take the Black. The scheme with Sansa's hair-net was probably mainly aimed at implicating Tyrion and Sansa's escape made him look mighty suspicious too. Tyrion's escape was an unlikely and unexpected occurrence, his avoiding people looking to win a lordship on Essos even more so. It was a very solid plan on LF's part, he was just unlucky for a change.

LF didnt plan the Tyrion thing. When Sansa agreed to marry Willas, that is when he changed his plan. He informed Tywin about it and it was because of him that the whole marriage happened. The hairnet was handed to Sansa way before that.

He was awre that the Tyrells want to assassinate Joff, that is why Sansa got the hairnet from Ser Dontos who worked for LF. As for when did he decided that the one whom they frame it should be Tyrion, I guess it was after the TyrionxSansa marraige was decided by Tyrion.

But again he himself does not seem bothered that Tyrion is still living. One of the strongest points of LF that he is able to change his plans, and act immedietly according to them, not to mention he does not place anything on one card.

As for Sansa being framed, he could testify that as a childhood friend of Cat, he decided to save the poor maiden from the evil ugly imp, and that is why Sansa was visiting the godswood to meet his men, after all there is not many who worship the old gods in KL. But the sweet girl is still compeletly true to the Seven.

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It might be that Lf knew all along that Sansa was going to need to be acquitted of these charges and planned on her going to trial and figured if it came to a trial by combat they had excellent odds. Gregor is believed to be dead Loras is severely injured, Jaime Is missing a hand, etc the other members of the kings guard are considered mediocre iirc. Then again he most likely counted on Cersei continuiing to screw up and bring down the regime anyway. Also to the people above who stated that Arya might be present in the whole theory I posted before because of a FM mission kudos I never even thought of that I forgot Arya was even in the dream.

Very true, I always overlook that he must have suspected that Sansa was going to be blamed for the murder as well. It works for him initially because it ties Sansa to him and ensures that she doesn't dare run away or ask for anyone's help but once the plan for Harry enters the scenario it starts working against him. He probably has a way out of it or is planning something. I am not sure everything is going to work out like he expects though, Aegon coming is already going to mess up his plans if he had a deal with the HS or was hoping to make one. If Cersei's downfall does happen and Aegon is on the Iron Throne I think by giving the Vale's allegiance to him he can easily get Sansa out of the charges.

but this is Westeros and nothing happens easily so I expect that Cersei's downfall won't happen easily and Sansa might get a trial by combat. The problem I have is I can not see Sansa and LF travelling back to KL willingly and also I think they have an entire arc to resolve with respect to Vale politics before this can happen. Of course, I might be wrong in my assumptions.

As for Sansa being framed, he could testify that as a childhood friend of Cat, he decided to save the poor maiden from the evil ugly imp, and that is why Sansa was visiting the godswood to meet his men, after all there is not many who worship the old gods in KL. But the sweet girl is still compeletly true to the Seven.

I can totally see this working out, especially if he has Sansa cry a little.

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I wouldn't be so sure about this. Another boarder had a great and hilarious theory he developed about how Tyrion will fall in love with Daenerys and when she sexually rejects him it'll be the last straw. He'll become evil incarnate, except with a dragon, the penultimate villain of the series who'll be brought down. This is a contrast with Jaime who starts at an unsympathetic point and is then made more sympathetic to the reader, while in Tyrion's case the exact opposite seems to be happening.

Not really, Jaime still has quite a few less desirable characteristics in his only ADWD chapter - as he is pulling down the last Direwolf banner (well, until Winterfell changes hands again I suppose), taking hostages and issuing threats. He's bringing the "Lannister peace" and from my perspective as a Stark loyalist that is really galling. Jaime reflects it was his fathers man who burned the crops and killed the people, but he still doesn't see the problem with that and with enforcing the peace that is good for the Lannisters and bad for the rest. He says he will hang the "outlaws" from the BWB - but given all that happened in the Riverlands, it's the Lannister army that are the real outlaws while the BWB attempted to defend the inhabitants. It's all very unfair - justice is still in very short supply in lands under Lannister rule, reformed Jaime or not.

He also reminded me in this chapter, when he talked about the Stark sisters, that he let Jeyne ride off to her fate without so much as a second thought. He still has a lot of the smiling knight in him, even if he is now better than he used to be.

Tyrion acts very dark up to half of ADWD, but after that he even does the jousting thing with Penny which is quite a development for him, and not a negative one. He cares about Penny and even about Jorah. And he may soon gain a dragon, which should help his mood considerably as it would be a childhood dream come true. Having felt the hard hand of slavers, he is also more likely than ever to genuinely thrown in his lot with the "breaker of chains" - once she gets over the initial tendencies to want to behead/burn/hang/impale/etc him. It also seems to me that Dany, who likes "dangerous" men and who also likes to engage in a bit of banter, could well come to regard him highly especially if his dragon knowledge turns out to be very useful.

I do think thats a worst-case-scenario and Sansa should only pull that trigger if she really, really needs an annulment right away for some reason. She might not especially like or trust Tyrion, but hes still a good ally to have if/when she has to deal with the Lannisters in general, and an annulment argument like that would completely blow up any kind of kind relationship between them (imo).

I think Tyrion could quite easily prove he's capable by calling a couple of so whores as witnesses. This isn't really in doubt anymore than the marriage not being consummated.

At one point, Tyrion says that the (then present) High Septon is a trained seal who barks on command. The present High Septon may not live forever, or once a serious army (like Tarly's, in Margaery's case) let alone a dragon or 3 come calling he may learn to bark on command a few times. Annulment is a political question; if the powers that be in KL want it to happen, it'll happen and any reason will be accepted. If they don't, Sansa could plead what she want and it would be refused. It's a question of who has the power and what they want to do with Sansa and/or Tyrion.

Why wouldnt Tyrion marry Sansa? Shes far and away the best wife he could ever hope to get. Even though he feels bad that shes unhappy about marrying him (I say that because he did offer some resistance to the marriage, and that was the argument he made that it was cruel to make her marry him), his father had just told him that *every* girl would be unhappy about marrying him, and that every other house had refused his hand. So whats the difference if its Sansa he needs to convince to love/trust him, or some other girl? His options seem to be: marry a girl who hates him or dont marry.

True, his father did make quite a convincing case to him to make it an enticing prospect in spite of his initial misgivings - and telling him about the refused matches for him surely played a large part in that.

Having said that, it's not really true every girl would be unhappy, but Tyrion didn't know that. Tysha was happy (until, well...), Shae seemed to dream about being elevated beside him a la Tytos' mistress or Ellaria Sand (she said to Sansa Ellaria was "once near a whore, now near a princess") and Penny seems to be happy enough with him (and to want more than what he has done so far). But Tywin sold his point very well, I agree.

And of course Tyrion also wanted Sansas reassurance that she wanted to marry him. Hes a human being his best-case scenario isnt that she kicks and screams all the way down the aisle and makes a humiliating scene about how epically undesirable he is, its that she tells him shes scared but she thinks shell learn to love him.

Fair enough, I hadn't really considered that Tyrion was afraid that she'd make a terribly humiliating (for him and her) scene and he wanted to check beforehand if she was resigned to it or not. Now, Sansa had already decided to go along at that point but Tyrion can't know that.

I doubt Cersei really would have followed up on her threats though, if Sansa was literally dragged there and beaten until she said the words even for the Lannister toadies there it would be really hard to take this marriage even half seriously. But, if Sansa had not submitted she would continue to be "a danger here at court", as Tywin put it, and also useless as a captive and hostage (Jaime was already released) so she would have likely met with an accident not much later (or alternatively, some horrible treason by her would have come to light, or possibly she would get the Jeyne treatment for a while in the dungeons to make her cooperate at a later point).

Sansa, on the other hand, doesnt give a flying fuck what Tyrion thinks about her, Im sure, as long as hes not raping or otherwise abusing her. Him wanting her would mean nothing.

Sansa does wonder a few times what Tyrion wants from her (as he is looking to her waiting for a response to a question or statement from him), but she thinks she doesn't know what it is and she can't give him anything. She doesn't understand what he wanted. Also, in typical Sansa fashion she is suddenly ashamed of her pride and stubborness right after she refuses to kneel for him during the ceremony - she really shouldn't have been ashamed given how she is being treated, used and humiliated herself by about everyone in KL including Tyrion, but Sansa does have those pangs of pity even for people who probably don't deserve it, even for Joffrey.

Why would Tyrion consider it? If I were him, Id like to grab my wife and take up my claim at Winterfell! How would annulling his marriage to Sansa be useful to Tyrion?

That all depends on circumstances. Now that Tyrion has met Penny, he might prefer someone who actually wants him and Penny may show him those can and do exist. He may not have need of Winterfell; he wanted Casterly Rock anyway, and he could well become Dany's Hand and possibly even heir (especially if it turns out Aerys did more than jape about Joanna Lannister).

Having said that, I don't think Tyrion has quite let Sansa go in his mind yet. And as I do see the possibility of him becoming king in the end, he may yet have need of a highborn wife and Sansa happens to be a bridge between the north and the south. Sansa is interesting as a character who initially seemed educated in a southern way and focused on the south, but then later we get scenes like the snow castle emphasising her northern roots as well, and at this time she wants to go home to Winterfell. I feel that ADWD stresses the difference in mentality and situation between the north and the south - the conversation between Alys and Jon about winter and food is quite chilling - and Sansa is one of very few characters who seems split 50/50 between them (besides maybe, Jeyne Poole and to some extent Theon Turncloak).

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Also, your comments about Tyrion's anxiousness about his own desirability makes me wonder how he would react if he were to learn about Sansa's crush on Sandor Clegane. I have always had the sense that he would be really angry were he to learn about it. He understands the very public crush on the Knight of Flowers and even references it when he is talking with her on the wedding night. I think he is understanding of this one because he wants beautiful women himself. But Sandor is ugly, less educated, brutal, angry, et cetera...and tall. I tend to think he'd take it very badly and very personally. Thoughts?

Good point. Luckily, knowledge of this particular crush seems to be limited to Sansa, Sandor, Elder brother and possible Arya to some extent. It's something else the Lannisters were just totally clueless about; the sworn sword of Joffrey was actually more into protecting Sansa from Joffrey than the other way round, and during the riot he ignored his charge and saved Sansa instead.

I wonder if Tyrion would blame it purely on Sandor being tall and strong, or if he would be really hit hard that Sansa could indeed come to love a "beast", just that the "beast" isn't him. As Rue721 wrote, maybe he would just blame it on being a Lannister (which is actually a large part of the reason anyway, as this is what Sansa hates most about Tyrion - he's a Lannister :ack: )

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I say she spends a decent amount of the next book plotting, and at some point claims Tyrion and her really did consummate their marriage. Sex isn't the only way to get rid of a maidenhead; all she has to do is say all the stuff about them never consummating was lies. Plus if Tyrion comes back with Daenerys, Sansa will be doing the politically savvy thing of backing the winning horse and setting herself up to take some legitimate power.

Plus, doesn't it just seem like a really bittersweet ending for Tyrion and Sansa to end the series as Lord and Lady of Winterfell, not necessarily in love but at least as a legitimate husband and wife, rebuilding the North? I can totally see GRRM going in that direction long-term.

I don't see Tyrion ending up as lord of Winterfell; I like Tyrion well enough, but if that would happen anyway then I hope Sansa gets widowed (by Shaggydog, say) really quickly because a Lannister in control of Winterfell just isn't right. And the place doesn't seem to tolerate non-Starks being in charge anyway, looking at Theon and soon enough Ramsay and Roose.

Lord and lady of Casterly Rock, maybe; though there's not much in that for Sansa unless it will make the gold flow freely for the north (which will be needing it after winter).

However, Sansa having to make sure she doesn't end up on the shitlist of Tyrion and especially Dany is a good point. If Dany first lands in the south, and Rickon is in league with Stannis at that point, she may be the best hope for the Starks to avoid a disastrouse conflict between them and the dragons. I suppose it's possible Dany will right away go for the Others instead, but we'll see.

His problems about his current plan: marry off Sansa are not new. He would be aware of them even before Sansa left KL, and in the Alayne chapters he does not seem bothered by it either. I say LF may have some seed growing nicely among the Faith, so that is why he feels it probably wont be a problem.

That might well be the case, though he could also be counting on the advent of the Targaryens to shake up the entire political situation in KL (and they could replace the High Septon if so inclined; they didn't make any deals and they may be popular enough to make it stick).

About Sansa outsmarting LF. Though I agree it would be nice, but Sansa is not aware of his role in the fall off her family. As far as she knows the ones who are responsible for it are the Lannisters and well Tyrion is a Lannister as well. I think as long as she wont be aware the truth, and as long Littlefinger dont cross a certain boundary, she wouldnt choose Tyrion over him. As many said, her outsmarting LF and allying with Tyrion sounds too far fetched, after all at the end of AFfC LF gives her a chance to get back Winterfell, to become the Lady of Winterfell with the Vale forces supporting her. Why would she turn it down (since I think her biggest wish is that, returning to her home, getting back the lands that was once her families,

Sansa isn't aware of LF's role yet, but she is aware he didn't lift a finger in KL to help her. She also may be aware he is planning to kill Sweetrobin, I guess she understood his meaning will enough - and annoying or not, he is kin of her and she has lost so much kin.

What I think may drive her to really go against LF is learning about what happened to Jeyne Poole. Bran apparently knows a lot of what happened with her as he was likely the one urging Theon on through the weirwood, and if he manages to contact Sansa (like Theon, or through visions in dreams, or even through speaking raven) he could possibly tell her LF was involved in breaking down Jeyne for use by the Lannisters and the Boltons. In that case, the "strangler" would come out I think.

what did Tyrion ever give her or said her that would suggest he would grant this wish, and it would benefit her to ally with him?, he was one of the many who held her captive, didnt let her return to her brother when he was still alive. It was Tyrion who deliberatly wrote an unnacaptable terms about exchanging fugitives, just so the ones who took his letter to Robb would try to free Jaime. He never ever wanted to let Sansa go. ) ?

Sansa is well aware Tyrion was fighting for the other side - I suppose he would have let her go eventually as he proposed to Tywin to sent her back to her mother in ASOS, but in ACOK he indeed could have done more to persuade Robb for a fair trade (with Jaime, and throw some other northman in to sweeten the deal). But indeed, Tyrion attempted to get Jaime freed by treachery instead.

Having said that, Tyrion has now changed sides and Sansa will also have to think about making sure she doesn't end up on a losing side again. LF may already be out of the picture by then, if Sansa takes action herself.

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LF didnt plan the Tyrion thing. .. As for when did he decided that the one whom they frame it should be Tyrion, I guess it was after the TyrionxSansa marraige was decided by Tyrion.

LF had a very good reason to try to remove Tyrion even without the Sansa angle. Tyrion was a real danger, the only one who was almost onto him. He knew about the dagger frame that was clearly aimed at provoking a clash between Starks and Lannisters, and being already suspicious, Tyrion as Master of the Coin would have seen LF's fishy shenangians with the Crown's finances too. In fact, LF had a very close shave when Tyrion first came to KL as an acting Hand and given that "a Lannister always pays his debts", well...

IMHO, Baelish had already tried to remove Tyrion - the Mandon Moore assassination attempt feels like he had his fingers in it, even if it were just insinuations to Joff.

And he probably knew that Tyrion would be the most likely Lannister husband for Sansa when he blew the whistle on the Tyrell marriage plot, which fit his plans very well, since he had to get rid of Tyrion anyway.

So, yea, LF may not seem too bothered currently, but he can't be pleased by the fact that one of his most valuable pieces is currently tied. Particularly since he relies so much on improvisation and flexibility. He is probably hoping that they'd hear about Tyrion's death any day now, since the odds do seem to be stacked against the noseless dwarf.

He's bringing the "Lannister peace" and from my perspective as a Stark loyalist that is really galling. Jaime reflects it was his fathers man who burned the crops and killed the people, but he still doesn't see the problem with that and with enforcing the peace that is good for the Lannisters and bad for the rest.

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace." It is over and peace at this point is essential if any smallfolk are to survive the winter. The Stark loyalists were just prolonguing everybody's suffering. The sooner the troops are gone from the region, the better for the people.

He says he will hang the "outlaws" from the BWB - but given all that happened in the Riverlands, it's the Lannister army that are the real outlaws while the BWB attempted to defend the inhabitants.

Yes, they are real outlaws and always were, as they also defended the smallfolk from the requisitions by their lawful overlords the Tullys and their shiny new kings the Starks.

They were fairly equal-opportunity resisters until Beric swapped himself for un-Cat, since wolves and trouts didn't treat the smallfolk too well either, despite being in ostensibly friendly territory.

And of course, now any anti-regime actions of BwB will only increase the suffering of smallfolk, as they'd bring the soldiers back. Not to forget that they also live off the peasants and now that war has ceased and winter has come, those peasants are unlikely to continue to support the BwB willingly. As so often happened and happens iRL, the freedom-fighters are going to turn into robbers.

It's all very unfair - justice is still in very short supply in lands under Lannister rule, reformed Jaime or not.

Life is not a song, sweetling ;).

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Well, firstly I think the plans for the North are lies. I can't imagine Littlefinger actually planning to attack the North as winter is coming, I think that was a way for him to get Sansa to accept the rest of the deal. Why would Sansa go along with his plans if it only consisted of marrying Harry and ruling the Vale, she doesn't care for marriage nor does she have any political ambitions, she cares about going back home so if he tells her that once she does marry Harry and get the Vale for him, he will get the North for her then there is something in the deal for her. Of course, again he is assuming that Sansa will overlook sweetrobin's fate and be willing to be married off for her claim once again. Honestly, I don't know how she'll react but I do think she'll at least have mixed feelings about it so it is not as certain as Littlefinger might think it is. On top of that, if by any chance she learns that Rickon is alive and the North is backing him up, there is no incentive left in the plan for her because once Rickon is Lord of Winterfell she can just go home, why bother with the marriage to Harry.

LF's (alleged) plan is to send the Vale army out only in spring, IIRC. It will have to wait "until Cersei is done and Sansa is safely widowed", at least. Of course, by then it will be far too late as the whole conflict with the Others will be decided in winter, so even if the plan is what LF says it is it won't come to pass. I also expect Bran to start communicating with her, in dreams if need be, sooner rather than later.

Sansa will have reserves about marrying Harry (especially after Myranda 'primed' her to have doubts) and Sweetrobin will also be a problem - I hope Sansa will chose to attempt to protect him and be much more distrusting of LF's medication for him.

This makes sense. If Bran's dream is to come true, this happening might be more likely than Jaime and Brienne figuring out where Sansa is and Cersei sending UnGregor to the Vale. I was assuming that by the time LF was ready to declare Sansa Cersei would be out of power but it does look like she might be making a comeback so LF might arrange a trial by combat to get Sansa out of the accusations.

Just like Tyrion, Sansa may have no choice but to demand a trial by combat if she ends up taken to Lannister/Tyrell controlled KL again - expect a normal trial to be rigged for her to be found guilty. And the prime purpose of "Ser Robert Strong" may well be to fight in such trials, first to acquite Cersei, then maybe to have Sansa declared guilty.

That would leave the question though, Jaime or Sandor to fight him and how would the unbeatable UnGregor be beaten anyway?

In regards to Tyrions fate I think when/if he meets up with Dany she will most likely hold him as a prisoner of sorts I don't see her just allowing him to just chill on her small council without proving himself loyal/not a danger then again this is Dany and she has made worse decisions.Sometimes I honestly doubt after ADWD that he and Sansa will ever meet again. They are a world away from eachother and if the pacing continues as it is .. It just seems like a stretch to me and if they do I highly doubt they would reconcile their marriage it just doesn't fit to me I dunno.

Indications are that Tyrion will be worth his weight in gold for Dany, because of his dragon knowledge (and westerosi knowledge, including recent political situation and even knowledge of Connington and co). I expect him to be crucial in cleaning up Meereen, he is already starting to work on that in late-ADWD. Quite possibly he will manage to tame one of the dragons, maybe in cooperation with Victarion and his horn. In short, I think he may well have proven himself loyal (to Barristan, Jorah and co) even before Dany returns to Meereen with (or without) her Dothraki.

Sure, he is a world away from Sansa now but Dany is definitely going to reach Westeros and Tyrion will be in tow. And I would be surprised if Sansa and Dany never meet; I expect her to be more than a little curious about Stark girls as well (little does she know it's Arya who is the spitting image of Lyanna, outside and inside).

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So, yea, LF may not seem too bothered currently, but he can't be pleased by the fact that one of his most valuable pieces is currently tied. Particularly since he relies so much on improvisation and flexibility. He is probably hoping that they'd hear about Tyrion's death any day now, since the odds do seem to be stacked against the noseless dwarf

So for us readers, the odds seem to be stacked against LF as he is likely waiting in vain on Tyrion's death. That "cursed" part from the wedding ceremony is a bit of a hint by Martin, I think. LF is going to regret this.

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace." It is over and peace at this point is essential if any smallfolk are to survive the winter. The Stark loyalists were just prolonguing everybody's suffering. The sooner the troops are gone from the region, the better for the people.

Fair enough, the war is lost and holding out for "honor" is indeed only making it worse. Still, the Lannisters are not doing it for the smallfolk; they are doing it to get their lands and castles and honours and wealth expanded further, like the greedy sobs many of them are, including Genna and Kevan.

The BWB are also not exactly Stark loyalists, they even kidnapped Ned's daughter once, and they have given a lot of help to the smallfolk. Jaime would do better to hang some Freys instead. And as you wrote, they took action against northmen too if necessary (allthough the bulk of the burning and raping and killing was done by either Lannister troops or guys under direct command of Bolton; the general looting accompagnied every army in such times).

And of course, now any anti-regime actions of BwB will only increase the suffering of smallfolk, as they'd bring the soldiers back. Not to forget that they also live off the peasants and now that war has ceased and winter has come, those peasants are unlikely to continue to support the BwB willingly. As so often happened and happens iRL, the freedom-fighters are going to turn into robbers.

Maybe. For the time being, they still enjoy a lot of support I think. Jaime could also try to give them a pardon and see if he can entice them that way to stop fighting, but he seems really determined to nail Beric Dondarrion in particular. Exactly the man who died 2 times trying to stop Gregor from raping the riverlands (in addition to various other deaths).

Jaime's determination to hang that man publicly doesn't exactly make him sound more sympathetic than Tyrion is at this stage.

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I don't have much time to participate today, so you won't be seeing lengthy posts from me (want to get some responses in to Wouter and Maia when I have time). But I wanted to get this in: does anyone think there is a possibility of Tyrion encountering Tysha? It seems from a story perspective that it should happen, as obsessed as he is with her right now. It also seems that it might be a final crushing blow to him as I very much doubt Tysha feels anything besides loathing for him after everything that took place.

OTOH, Tyrion seems to think that Tysha really loved him and I kind of think Tywin might have been correct that she was really looking for money (not in the cold-blooded Shae kind of way, more like disbelief at her good fortune). I confess, I'm pretty curious to see an encounter between them and since GRRM seems to want to grind Tyrion as deep into the mud as possible, I don't think its outside the realm of possibility.

Thoughts?

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On the one hand it seems unrealistic for him to find a needle in a haystack (unless she would want to be found by him, very unlikely that). On the other hand, Martin must be going somewhere with all this emphasis on Tysha.

However, shouldn't we expect Tysha to be in Westeros still, if she even is alive today? If it is supposed to happen, wouldn't it be about time for that now, while he is in Meereen?

I though Tysha may be pretty Meris, but given her description (which I only read yesterday) she seems more like a random victim of the bloody mummers or something similar.

Maybe Tyrion will just decide to stop fretting about it, as he gets more involved with Penny - and with taming dragons.

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Good point. Luckily, knowledge of this particular crush seems to be limited to Sansa, Sandor, Elder brother and possible Arya to some extent. It's something else the Lannisters were just totally clueless about; the sworn sword of Joffrey was actually more into protecting Sansa from Joffrey than the other way round, and during the riot he ignored his charge and saved Sansa instead.

Another hasty drive-by post before I dig back into what I am supposed to be doing:

I really want Littlefinger and the Lannisters to find out about it at some point. I don't know if it will happen or not (maybe Sansa will confide her 'kiss' in Myranda or Mya and it will become gossip? seems unlikely) but none of them really understand what makes Sansa tick and this will throw all of them for a loop. Cersei will probably immediately think that Sandor was plotting against her son all along, and God alone knows what Tyrion and LF will think. LF still thinks that he can string her along by dangling a cute boy in front of her face and doesn't realize that she's past that stage now.

But, I also want to see Sansa return to KL at some point and have a confrontation with Cersei with a shift in the power dynamic. Actually, if she gets a spoiler chapter I would like it to include her learning about The Great Nude Parade; I wonder what she will think of it.

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So for us readers, the odds seem to be stacked against LF as he is likely waiting in vain on Tyrion's death.

Indeed, which is quite funny. LF had been clever and decisive so far, yes, but he had also been quite lucky. And IMHO, he doesn't yet quite appreciate that fact. The "cursed", heh. Is it the standard formulation of Seven-style marriage? Because it could have (had) interesting implications for other characters, too.

Fair enough, the war is lost and holding out for "honor" is indeed only making it worse. Still, the Lannisters are not doing it for the smallfolk; they are doing it to get their lands and castles and honours and wealth expanded further, like the greedy sobs many of them are, including Genna and Kevan.

It does not matter. The smallfolk will be still massively better off if Genna doesn't get killed by the BwB, triggering the next retaliotary military action in the area and resulting in even more devastation. And competent Lannisters do understand that they need to take care of the smallfolk in order to fulfill their own ambitions, so having them wouldn't necessarily be worse than having somebody good-hearted, but incompetent/ poor.

And of course, Stark loyalists would have behaved somewhat better - they were supposed to be in friendly territory, after all. But they were bad enough for the smallfolk who lost their property, if not their lives and are now going to starve.

Jaime could also try to give them a pardon and see if he can entice them that way to stop fighting, but he seems really determined to nail Beric Dondarrion in particular.

He is pretty even-handed with everybody who breaks the peace at this stage. Didn't he hang some ex-Lannister soldiers turned robber too? BwB doesn't seem to honor the negotiation rules, after all, what with hanging Merret Frey. Why would anybody think that they would honor a pardon?

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Indeed, which is quite funny. LF had been clever and decisive so far, yes, but he had also been quite lucky. And IMHO, he doesn't yet quite appreciate that fact. The "cursed", heh. Is it the standard formulation of Seven-style marriage? Because it could have (had) interesting implications for other characters, too.

Thinking about Jaime here? Maybe Aerys?

I think it is the standard formulation though, and the seven most likely don't exist and most of their septons don't seem to dabble in magic either ("the elder brother" may be an exception, he seems to have healing powers of some kind), so the words really shouldn't matter. Still, the same goes for the kinslaying thing; you are not really cursed per se, but you're cursed in the eyes of fellow Westerosi making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. And my impression is that Martin did want our attention on that particular line; he didn't write down the actual text of the vows themselves IIRC, but the formulation by the priest was written verbatim.

If so, they will remain married I suppose.

It does not matter. The smallfolk will be still massively better off if Genna doesn't get killed by the BwB, triggering the next retaliotary military action in the area and resulting in even more devastation. And competent Lannisters do understand that they need to take care of the smallfolk in order to fulfill their own ambitions, so having them wouldn't necessarily be worse than having somebody good-hearted, but incompetent/ poor.

Genna seems competent enough (though mixed with the greed and pragmatic cruelty from Tywin and Kevan), but her husband is a grade-A douchebag. The problem is also that it may be too late to take care of the smallfolk, the crops are gone and the snows are falling, unless they take a page from Jon's book and they use gold to buy food for them - which Emmon Frey may not be inclined to do even if Genna would be.

Riverrun itself should hold plenty of food reserves though (as they were stocked for a long siege), so if the BWB can take the castle they could steal the food and move out again, with Genna as a hostage if they are smart. Since the Lannister capacity for warfare is diminishing rapidly now (with their attention drawn to KL and the Stormlands, part of their army demobilised, with Tywin and Kevan dead and Tyrion and Jaime missing they are fast running out of decent commanders - they're lucky to still have Daven) their counterstroke could well come too late to do anything but retake an emptied castle without resistance.

He is pretty even-handed with everybody who breaks the peace at this stage. Didn't he hang some ex-Lannister soldiers turned robber too? BwB doesn't seem to honor the negotiation rules, after all, what with hanging Merret Frey. Why would anybody think that they would honor a pardon?

Because the BWB may be tired of fighting a war they can't win anymore, and a lot of them may be willing to just stop the fighting as long as they don't need to fear further repression? Of course, they would probably never believe Jaime's word but he could try.

He doesn't need to negotiate with them for that, just make an announcement that outlaws who give up their weapons before a certain date will be welcomed back into the King's peace - even Dondarrion himself if need be. He does it for Blackwood and many other lords, why not for the outlaw groups?

I suppose Jaime doesn't understand there is a clear difference between the BWB and such groups as the bloody mummers turned outlaw though (not that the turn outlaw part made much difference anyway), and it is a bit personal for him. Lannister propaganda tends to blame Dondarrion and co for most of the Riverland atrocities IIRC (and the Hound for the rest).

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Just like Tyrion, Sansa may have no choice but to demand a trial by combat if she ends up taken to Lannister/Tyrell controlled KL again - expect a normal trial to be rigged for her to be found guilty. And the prime purpose of "Ser Robert Strong" may well be to fight in such trials, first to acquite Cersei, then maybe to have Sansa declared guilty.

That would leave the question though, Jaime or Sandor to fight him and how would the unbeatable UnGregor be beaten anyway?

With fire. That seems to be the trick with the undead. And a very apt ending for Gregor if Sandor is in the fight.

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With fire. That seems to be the trick with the undead. And a very apt ending for Gregor if Sandor is in the fight.

Yes. I wonder if using fire would be permitted in a "holy" trial-by-combat though. Carry a torch instead of a sword? :shocked:

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Just like Tyrion, Sansa may have no choice but to demand a trial by combat if she ends up taken to Lannister/Tyrell controlled KL again - expect a normal trial to be rigged for her to be found guilty. And the prime purpose of "Ser Robert Strong" may well be to fight in such trials, first to acquite Cersei, then maybe to have Sansa declared guilty.

That would leave the question though, Jaime or Sandor to fight him and how would the unbeatable UnGregor be beaten anyway?

yes the problem here is who can actually beat UnGregor and it doesn't look very likely that anyone will.

Sansa will have reserves about marrying Harry (especially after Myranda 'primed' her to have doubts) and Sweetrobin will also be a problem - I hope Sansa will chose to attempt to protect him and be much more distrusting of LF's medication for him

I hope she does choose to protect him also, and it seems like if she does decide to protect him the arc itself might resolve faster and I would personally prefer it be resolved soon.

But, I also want to see Sansa return to KL at some point and have a confrontation with Cersei with a shift in the power dynamic. Actually, if she gets a spoiler chapter I would like it to include her learning about The Great Nude Parade; I wonder what she will think of it.

A Sansa/Cersei confrontation is one of the things I wish would happen, the theory that Sansa might get a trial by combat means that they might meet again. As for hearing about Cersei, I think Sansa would be sad for her, she knows what it means to be publicly humiliated, I can not see her enjoying that news, of course who knows maybe she is more bitter towards Cersei though I never really got that impression.

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Why wouldn’t Tyrion marry Sansa? She’s far and away the best wife he could ever hope to get.

Just like to suggest that a 'better' marriage might be to someone who cared for him. Unlikely to be high born tho.

And someone's pointed out that it's likely/possible that Tysha was after his money after all... No happy ending (beginning) after all.

Also, your comments about Tyrion's anxiousness about his own desirability makes me wonder how he would react if he were to learn about Sansa's crush on Sandor Clegane. I have always had the sense that he would be really angry were he to learn about it. He understands the very public crush on the Knight of Flowers and even references it when he is talking with her on the wedding night. I think he is understanding of this one because he wants beautiful women himself. But Sandor is ugly, less educated, brutal, angry, et cetera...and tall. I tend to think he'd take it very badly and very personally. Thoughts?

I am really enjoying your analysis of Tyrion's psychology on this, btw.

:thumbsup:

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Bran's vision suggests some sort of Sansa-related theory of everything. We know Jaime's on a mission to save Sansa, and it looks like the Hound has some kind of soft spot for her, plus he hates Gregor. So maybe Jaime, Brienne and Sandor Clegane use their mad zombie-slaying skills (learned fighting Beric/Stoneheart) to save Sansa from UnGregor.

No idea where Arya comes into it, whether warging Nymeria or in person. (I'd like to think Nymeria's pack will come out of nowhere to swarm over Gregor's body, leaving nothing behind. Like when Kenny gets eaten by rats in old South Park episodes.)

ETA: I really like poetic justice of Sandor killing Gregor with fire.

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I read a few posts on how hypocritical Tyrion is by wanting only the beautiful girls. In his defence it is very difficult to be physically attracted to a deformed person but as shown in the case with Penny, Tyrion still kisses her and tries not to hurt her. There is a scene where he tries to drink rum so that he can kiss Penny again (saying this girl deserves a kiss). IMO if Tyrion were to be forced into a marriage with Penny (like Sansa was) he would have easily made it work despite his lack of physical attraction to her.

Coming back to the topic, why hasn't anyone noticed that Tyrion is not furious or even angry at Sansa even after though he believes that she poisoned Joffrey and he had to take the fall for it. IMO that is a very mature and empathetic behavior in that he understands not only Sansa's desire to kill Joffrey and but also her right to use him as a pawn. For his honor's sake he even stops himself from testifying against Sansa during the trial. But I doubt he would be so forgiving when he sees her with Littlefinger. IMO that is the greatest hurdle to them getting back together. Everything else can be solved if Sansa grows up a little to realize that Tyrion is 100 times more capable than any Knight.

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